The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: FiB on February 28, 2012, 09:12:56 am
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I'm not going to post again untill I have something uplifting to say (and thanks for all the lovely threads with new lambs, helps to keep it all in perspective)...BUT....
Noticed another of our Beulah (bought in ewe lambs in sept so around a year old - not in lamb) looking off yesterday - she had been standing on her own day before and when I went up to her yesterday (lying down, but head up) she didnt get up - Mucky bum, watery nose - just like the one that died the week before of pasteuralla pneumonia. Got her in shed, gave her a dose of wormer (Vet had given after PM last week and I was going to do this weekend) she got up and had a nose at the hay and hard food on offer and had a drink. Dead this morning. It does seem the same as the death last week- but shouldnt the Antibiotic administered to all have knocked that on the head? I feel so terrible - 8 out of 10 now dead left. Do I get another PM? Are the Beulahs a bit fancy for my land (quite wet, 250m)(as suggested by all neighbours who stick to welsh mountain or lleyn)? The 6 acres they have been grazing on is stripped, but they have been having Hay since November and hard feed since Last month. I'm sure I'm failing them somehow, but I dont know what else I should be doing. Cant ask neighbours as they are all hill farmers who operate on the almost nil intervention principal (bit of cake if they are in lamb, but no vaccinations etc). End of ramble. Better call the dead sheep removal guys (and THAT seems such a waste too).
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So sorry to hear about your sheep :( It must be so demoralising, especially when you are making such huge efforts to keep them right. :bouquet:
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I dont think you have done anything wrong, because Im having an op soon my Shetlands werent put in lamb and they are in the only well fenced field which didnt have much in the way of grass to start with and so they have been living on hay (made by us, they love it, turn noses up at the bought stuff!) and mineral licks and water all winter and they are all fighting fit and in prime health.
I feel really sorry for you, it is really bad luck.
The only vaccs I do routinely are the Heptavac P+ ones on the pregnant ewes (giving the lambs some immunity too).
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Thanks Rosemary. I do understand that deadstock is part of livestock (I took some strange comfort from previous responses regarding sheeps' aptitudes for death!), but I would hate to think I was not looking after the flock properly and loosing them through ignorance. So glad I chose not to breed in my (and the sheeps) first year. Lots to learn. Thanks again. Still sitting here, steeling myself to go and bring it up to where the knackers van will come. Dead sheep, wheelbarrow, big hill - needs at least 3 cups of coffee!
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Don't get too disheartened it may be poor husbandry prior to you getting them or just the way it goes. Sheep are fickle animals and my grandfather always told me that sheep are born with the in built instinct to find the quickest way to die!
We lost a ewe last year who was 2 weeks off lambing and i beat myself up about it for weeks wondering what i had done wrong.
Your post shows how much you care about your animals, it is never easy losing them but unfortunately it is part of life.
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for 8 to kick the bucket from 10 that is one serious problem was it the vet that did the pm if yes get him to refer this on to the college (vet) or state vet service they do it for nothing as there is a serious problem :farmer:
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Sorry 8 out of 10 dead - that is a serious loss. If you bought these in as lambs in the autumn they most likely did NOT get any clostridial vaccination - the first thing for ALL bought-in stock (unless from someone you know and trust) is a double dose of Heptavac P+, an ivermectin based wormer and a flukicide.
I would never buy my first set of any livestock in an auction, a private sale where you can discuss your management plans etc with the seller should always give you a better start. If these sheep came from a fairly "mild" environment their first winter with you may just have been too much of a shock.
A lick would have given them extra energy when most needed (ours usually get one from late December onwards, or if snow on the ground earlier), and if you see them going through it a rate of knots without getting mucky bums, a little bit of concentrate would probably be useful - it does depend on your hay quality as well.
But we all learn the hard way most of the times with livestock.... been there myself a few times.
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-- poor you :bouquet:
I really feel for you :'(
No one can turn the clock back- but I would think their must of been some underlying problem in the sheep that made them more susceptible to getting pneumonia possibly they had liverfluke?.
The antibiotics- If it was a long acting would have lasted 3 days, and I would have probably thought about given them another follow up injection.
Sounds as if you have been working with your vet on this- so have certainly not to blame youself.
CHIN UP
Tilly X
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FiB are feel very sorry for you but i have to agree this is a serious problem for you sounds like the stock from where they came may not be good can you restock with stronger animals? or is that not an option
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Gosh sorry for mistype - I was in a bit of a state.... I meant 8 from 10 left. - 2 from 10 dead. Still a pretty big dint for me though and makes me very worried about the rest.
Been into vet this morning and they recommend PM again (they would???) and more alamycin for rest of flock (I didnt know it only lasted 3 days). I Gave them Covexin ( I asked for Heptovac in the farm shop, but they persuaded me that heptovac was better, buggers) when they first came and then put them into Heprovac P cycle last week. Agree that auction is last resort. Hoping that I can keep a closed flock and not have to do that again if these ladies can make it.
Salamonella test from previous PM ( Iwas waiting for that) was inconclusive, so they wish to test for that again. It never rains etc... I am now officially beyond skint!!!
They have had access to lick all winter and the hay smells and looks great, but we cut it from our land - not sure if that could compound anything if our land is carrying any pathogens.
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Ok, that sounds a bit better... but really any bought in stock straight onto Heptavac.
Lots of large scale farmers don't vaccinate their lambs if they plan to sell them all of before the winter, but I always do all of mine about 6/10 weeks after the last one was born, even if I sell them in October. It just seems a small additional cost compared to lamb prices of about 70 quid and more....
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Sorry to hear of your loss, it really is disheartening when you have done everything you thought was necessary for their wellbeing :-\.
I lost three of mine this year, all from stock which I bought in late 2011. I've had sheep since 2006 and never had problems like I've had with these, I'm wondering if the fact I've bought from several sources and put them all together (despite quarantine) has been the main factor.
I lost two to a huge worm burden (despite regular worming!) and another to pasteurella. Nearly lost another one but thankfully she survived. I will probably keep a closed flock from now on and keep up to date with worming/vaccinations and keep fingers firmly crossed!
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Ok, that sounds a bit better... but really any bought in stock straight onto Heptavac.
Lots of large scale farmers don't vaccinate their lambs if they plan to sell them all of before the winter, but I always do all of mine about 6/10 weeks after the last one was born, even if I sell them in October. It just seems a small additional cost compared to lamb prices of about 70 quid and more....
To get lambs into the Covexin 8 or Heptavac-P system, they have to have two shots, 4-6 weeks apart, neither being given before the lambs are three months old as the passive immunity from the vaccinated ewe would interfere with the new vaccination. Farmed commercial fat lambs should be away at 14-18 weeks old, so shouldn't really be needing vaccinations unless their mothers weren't vaccinated before lambing. Lambs being sold 'in the store' would normally be sold unvaccinated; the buyer can then put them into whichever system s/he favours. Breeding sheep may be vaccinated or not, depending on the vendor; if it was the other system to yours, in theory you have to give them two shots when it's booster time the first time to switch them to your system.
Often it isn't the cost of the med that stops a farmer giving a dose of whatever - it's the logistics of getting the sheep in for yet another handling plus the stress of the gather, move, treatment and journey back to field or hill. Hill farms tend to still work on specific gathers - crutching and sorting for tupping; tups off; pre-lambing / scanning; lambing (if lambing in-bye or indoors); clipping; weaning / culling / drafting. Here, when the sheep are in the pens for whatever reason, they get whatever is the next treatment due, or two or three if they're due or nearly and won't conflict with each other; BH hates having them in and not giving them something, as it means another gather and journey for them.
Having said all of which, once the older lambs are over 3 months old, groups of lambs are in reasonably regularly for being drawn for sale, so it would be easy enough to start vaccinating those remaining at a point. I think most of us find that the immunity from the mother seems to last into the back end of the year, so any keepers would be vaccinated along with the keeping ewe lambs at this point.
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To get lambs into the Covexin 8 or Heptavac-P system, they have to have two shots, 4-6 weeks apart, neither being given before the lambs are three months old as the passive immunity from the vaccinated ewe would interfere with the new vaccination.
Typo ? Heptavac-P can be given from 3 weeks old to give cover. I maybe wrong but am just looking at vaccinations for our little flock.
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Yes, Heptavac can be given much earlier than Covexin and the boosters are 2weeks apart rather than 4-6 for Covexin. I do my lambs at 4 weeks and 6 weeks.
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Yes - we give Heptavac P+ to the lambs at 4 and 6 weeks. The ewes get theirs annually 3 weeks before lambing.
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Yes - we give Heptavac P+ to the lambs at 4 and 6 weeks.
Feel like I'm taking over this thread so apologies but looking at vaccinations at the mo. Gumpf on Heptavac reads:
Heptavac-P Plus should not be used in lambs less than 3 weeks of age due to the possible immunological incompetence of the very young lamb and competition from any maternally derived colostral antibodies. Lambs being retained for fattening or subsequent breeding will require a full course of vaccination. At a minimum age of 3 weeks these lambs should receive 2 injections, each of 2.0 ml, separated by an interval of 4-6 weeks
Completely new to this so I don't want to tread on any toes, just keen to know what happens in the real world :)
& FiB, very sorry for your losses,
best wishes.
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The headache for me this year has been not really knowing when our girls were due and I think we didn't get the timing so good for the antenatal dose and gave it about a week too late. At tupping time our girls go to a larger BF flock down the road and the tup runs with all of them in the bottom field for a month or so - so it's not really feasible to see who's bottoms are coloured when (well - of course - it is feasible but both Will and his wife wok full time and have children etc etc and they're friends so I'm not going to insist that we have exact covering dates)
However, this is only our second year with lambing and we have learnt so much otherwise so I'm not too disheartened.
I expect that we did give it 4 weeks apart last year ZacB as I would have followed the product information sheet to the letter!! I use a vaccinator like VSS suggests but I do use a fresh sterile needle for each injection.
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You're right, the blurb says the two doses should be 4-6 weeks apart, don't know where I got 2 weeks from, apologies.
Yes, you don't use it younger than 3 weeks as the lambs should have passive immunity from their mum's colostrum which could interfere with them developing immunity to the vaccine.
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FiB, I am sorry for your loss.Guilt is the first thing you feel, should or could have done this or that, but we can't see into the future and we can't always ensure our stock's well- being, however well we take care of them.
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Are the Beulahs a bit fancy for my land (quite wet, 250m)
Beulahs were the first sheep my OH had at the tender age of 13 and he always used to recommend them for beginners as they were always very forgiving. But, personally, I don't think beulahs are quite the sheep they used to be. IMO they are suffering in the same way as the Swaledales and Blackies are with ewe breeders selecting for ewes that will produce smart looking mules rather than looking for sheep that will do well on the hills.
Where abouts are you based? If you were to go for one of the more improved types of welsh mountain, such as the Talybont welsh, you would get a good level of performance with plenty of toughness.
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...and one of my Lleyn went down this morning! Same pattern... spotted her down, she couldnt get up when I approached although did waggle her legs vigorously. I put her up (just to see if she had got stick (Im sure I read spomewher on here that sheep do somtimes get stuck - or is that only pregnat sheep) and she wobbled an dfell over again, Stuck her with antibiotic (had some in this time) and wheelbarrowed her to polytunnel. Imediately started eating hay and tucked into nuts and water... Still OK at the moment, most surprised - been expecting another dead sheep. Keeping her in overnight, as need to dag her tomorrow - terrible scours despite being wormed only last month (and vet PM worm counts being low..). Neighbours are very relaxed about scouring and say it is just the new grass coming in?? Fingers crossed for a lucky night.... I am so p'd off with my vet - they recommended various lab tests from previous 2 PMs - a bill came through for one this week £60, didnt even say what the resluts were- not one has given me a single bit of usefull information. Aggh. This forum has been MUCH more informative (although I do appreciate there is a time for the vet). This sheep today had exactly the same pattern as the other 2 (diagnosed pastueralla at PM), but it cant be that this time can it - they all had the second dose (6wk after first) of Hep- P the weekend before last?
Blimmin sheep. Lovely but unfathomable at the moment!
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Not sure if the Heptovac P is 100% foolprrof? We've have one this year who was definitely vacc'd yet died of classic pastuerella symptoms :'(
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.... VSS - we're near Bala, North Wales. Most of the sheep around us are Welsh mountain crosses (Lleyn and some more commercial (huge!!)crosses), but I wanted to try a difffernt breed because their fleeces are aweful! I have a big decision this autumn, whether to hire in a Beulah ram or bring in something else for a bit of hybrid vigour (or indead eat them all and buy in a tougher breed!). I want to support a rarer breed (and Beulah are not known for finishing easily so they've got to be heading that way) but not at the expense of sheeps health. I bought these for their fleece (although the breed is not renowned for consistantly fine fleece - these girls have long fine wool - may just be because it's their lambs wool, will have to see how I get next year).
My aim is for good fleece (home spinning) and home meat. Hope I can nurse the flock through and stick with them, cause I do love my Beulah!
Thanks :bouquet: for feedback on Heptovac and breeds - all good food for thought.