The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: smudger on February 27, 2012, 01:44:42 pm
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Firstly, apologies if this has been discussed before.
I have visited a number of farms/smallholders for training courses in the last year and most are raising pigs indoors in pens, not free ranging. Those which did have some outdoor pigs were in fixed pens. This included people promoting rare breed pigs. I didn't see any neglect but one smallholder did seem to be mean on bedding and to my mind too many pigs in each pen (I appreciate legal standards will have been met, but still...).
Now when I buy meat I always but free range. Sometimes organic, but ALWAYS free range. I am trying to square the circle on being a smallholder, wanting better quality "product" (particularly if it supports traditional and rare breeds) but can't really comprehend why if you follow this path you also wouldn't want the pig (or any animal) to follow as natural an existence as possible for its short life.
So is there anyone rearing pigs (either as a couple of weaners or commercially) who are managing to keep outdoor pigs without ruining the land (and if so how)? SFP and poaching being the reason why most were keeping indoors.
Or am I being too soppy? Admittedly the pigs seem to be mostly sleeping, so does it affect there well being?
I had this dream of pigs grazing under our orchards.....
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Ours are grazing under the orchard - or rather, rooting up the soil around that massive old oak and lazing around in the shade afterwards :D
We let them have the run around of a field and some woodland as the field is very large, much more than they could ever root up in the time they're here (we fatten weaners). We move the electric fencing around every few weeks or so, giving them a bigger area as they grow, and they love digging their heads into newly discovered ants' nest, tails wagging. :yum: They clear the weeds like no machine could, and at least afterwards the grass seed that comes in from near their pen has a chance to grow. Stinging nettles, thistles... they don't stand a chance against pigs ;D
And the woodland... well, there's no grass to destroy there anyway and they don't really damage the trees, it's all mud and they love it!
They love running around and exploring, it's what pigs do. But yes, they'll also spend quite some time inbetween being asleep ;)
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It's an interesting one.
I don't know about pigs, but I spoke with a very opinionated farm manager when that super-dairy was in the news. His thoughts were, essentially, that a cow wants food, water, shelter and a "herd structure" - and if all this is provided then why would they choose to get cold and wet? Apparently there have been behavioural studies etc (leading to such things as the motorised back scratcher ;D ). But then, we were chatting about very modified, intensive dairy breeds - i.e. the delicate flowers of the farm world ;)
I think there can be good indoor systems as much as there can be bad outdoor systems - bad husbandry is bad husbandry. Does that make sense?
Doesn't answer your question really though ::)
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I would far rather my pigs were living a good "piggy" life, bumbling around, rooting, wallowing etc. If the weather gets cold and wet they go into their arks and sometimes stay there for hours but I prefer them to have a choice in the matter :) :pig: :pig:
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It's an interesting one.
I think there can be good indoor systems as much as there can be bad outdoor systems - bad husbandry is bad husbandry. Does that make sense?
I agree with YL on this. I'm not sure that living belly deep in mud is pleasant or healthy for the pig or the keeper, although the initial post is about pig welfare rather than keeper welfare so I think there are probably good and bad examples of both.
When I was at University in the early 80s, the farms on the Bush Estate were developing high welfare ways of keeping pigs, based of the study of the behaviour of ourdoor pigs, that could operate successfully commercially. This included loose housing sows, later weaning of piglets, letting gilts being retained for breeding form family groups with their mothers.
I think it must be pretty hard to balance the highest welfare with making a living, and let's face it, if folk can't make a living, the prospect for pigs generally is poor.
On the dairy cows, I was on a few dairy farms in my year with RHET. Many of the high yielding cows were in 24/7 because concentrate feed was the only way to get enough nutrients into them to stop them miling themselves to death. But this is the way they have been bred and tbh, I didn't think they looked terribly stressed but again, I suspect there is good and bad husbandry in all management systems.
Our weaners have always been kept outside - but we only have two or three, and only for 6 months of the year in summer. If we had them over winter, I think I'd be looking at some form of housing.
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varied comments not all land is suited to outdoor pig rearing where you see commercial outdoor units it is on free draining soil any breed of pig will trash the soil structure on heavy land that is clay based the only difference then is the length of there legs
if they are advertising there pigs as outdoor while being inside then that is trading standards
where we are they have to come in in winter 2 in a large area will not do much damage 20 will trash the same area and look as if they are neglected and uncared for
i am at a loss to see where this grazing pig comes from they are not designed to live on grass as cows and sheep pigs root that is what they have there snouts for
sfp has nothing to do with pigs some arable farmers let pigs on there land to fertilize it
pigs will eat the bark of trees just as horses do :farmer:
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Ooo I feel all brainy, I was just coming back to say it depends on your land and that outdoors on clay was probably a bad idea... ;D
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Firstly, apologies if this has been discussed before.
Now when I buy meat I always but free range. Sometimes organic, but ALWAYS free range.
The pigs you are buying pork from Sainsbury's will be penned in some form. "Free range" has no legal definition for pork, and very few pigs would meet your definition of free ranging. Indeed with the exception of some common grazing such as the New Forest, the vast majority of common grazing has no pigs.
However you can quite happily keep pigs outdoors in large pens, which allow then to exhibit their natuiral behaviour to root.
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ours are free-range, some on pasture, some in woodland, and they are active most of the day too - not big sleepers.
the woodland copes much better as the tree roots seem to hold the ground together.
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mmm.
I do accept heavy clay makes outdoor pig keeping difficult, but then one could argue shouldn't we try to earn a living with and not against the characteristics of our smallholding? And if we say well we have to earn a living and thus rear pigs indoors with no outside access, on concrete, at what point does that arguement also then justify intensive commercial business models?
I have no idea whether they market their product as freerange, but I really don't think any of them would be dishonest. But as someone purchasing meat at a farmers market then I would be expecting the animals to have been more humanely reared than from a supermarket or standard butcher. I would also argue that a large commercial barn to roam around in is also better than having 5 pigs in a 3x3m concrete pen for 4 -6 months.
I had no idea that free range was not defined for pigs. Must look into what I buy then.....
My pig breeed books says there are a few pigs which graze (and not just Kune kune). In fact its says don't feed GOS in summer (on good grass) as they will get too fat. :-\. Please don't laugh. I'm learning and I appreciate books aren't everything but I'd rather hold onto a weaner for a month longer if it avoids buying expensive feed and it can lead a (more) natural existence. I'm not going to do it commercially and at most 2 sets of weaners or 8-9 mths of the year.
Of course my real dilemma is we have a former block built piggery units, but they don't have any direct grass access, only to a yard. How to justify with my husband that we need to buy an expensive pig ark to put in the orchard?
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I had no idea that free range was not defined for pigs. Must look into what I buy then.....
My pig breeed books says there are a few pigs which graze (and not just Kune kune). In fact its says don't feed GOS in summer (on good grass) as they will get too fat. :-\. Please don't laugh. I'm learning and I appreciate books aren't everything but I'd rather hold onto a weaner for a month longer if it avoids buying expensive feed and it can lead a (more) natural existence. I'm not going to do it commercially and at most 2 sets of weaners or 8-9 mths of the year.
Of course my real dilemma is we have a former block built piggery units, but they don't have any direct grass access, only to a yard. How to justify with my husband that we need to buy an expensive pig ark to put in the orchard?
UK labelling laws are a disgrace,even reading labels is a nightmare. Free range should mean outside reared pigs. Don't get fooled by outdoor bred (means they were born outside and then herded into big sheds to be fattened) even organic dosen't necessarily mean good welfare, you can call pork organic if it was kept in a coalhouse and fed organic food! best thing to do is find a local producer and go visit, most pig keepers are happy to talk pork & piggies for hours. Check some of the breed society websites for members details.
As a GOS keeper i can tell you that they do need feeding even if on grass during the summer, there would be a riot otherwise and they need the protein from the nuts to grow strong bones and meat tissue/muscle.
Is there no way you can make a passage from the piggery's to the orchard using some hurdles, a pig ark for summer pigs need not be expensive we have an old garage door set on four posts and 3 sides of it enclosed with solid pallets so it cost next to nothing, it was originally put in as a sum shelter but the last two lots of weaners have took to living in it! 24/7.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
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Mandy you could end up in the bad baby corner like myself
why is the first thing any new piggy person wants is an ark if you want summer accommodation make a straw house out of bales there should be details of how to make one in one of these books and if not come back and ask
again this grass eating pig myth they cannot live on grass they are not designed to live on grass grass is only a filler and serves the same purpose as sawdust it is only a filler
smudger who wrote the book you were quoting from
feeding pigs has a skill to it to get the best return with minimal cost in the shortest time :farmer:
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Mandy you could end up in the bad baby corner like myself
What...... Moi? ;D ;D
Mandy :pig:
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i will lead you astray :farmer:
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Robert - "Choosing and keeping pigs" by Linda McDonald-Brown. (p127. GOS) Also says the Large Black can get 50% of its food intake from grass and says that the B/saddleback is a grazer.
Re - pig ark, we really need something wind and rain proof (ok ok, if not pretty in the orchard). Plus thought if portable, can at least move pigs on if poaching does occur. The piggery units are open fronted - whatever was there to close them in is long gone. Will they respect metal hurdles if we tie them together and bolt to the walls somehow? Farms we visited had stable doors that could stop a rhino to my eyes (but they were breeding.).
Thanks for responses anyway.
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Linda posts on here
straw built shelters will be alright in north Devon just have the back to the prevailing wind and don't place in a low part everybody ideas is different try something cheap and cheerful first then if pigs are for you outside then buy the Hilton for them :farmer:
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carberry arks are easy to move as they are plastic, but not cheap
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Yes, I was looking at these - I was thinking can use in summer for pigs then for sheep / lambs in winter....
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Hiya :wave: just coming in to add my tuppenceworth too ;)
If you want to buy a pig arc and have the spare cash, by all means get one - it'll be a sound invertment and last for years to come, But, you don't need one ! Pigs will get by spring to autumn in very basic housing (I once bought weaners from a lady who made an arc from palletts with a few feed bags over the top to keep the rain off - basic and not the prettiest thing to look at, but it did the job without costing the earth)
It might be prudent to wait til you're certain pigs are going to be a permanent addition before committing to the cost of the arc ? Plastic is said to have better insulation properties than the metal, but ours are metal and the pigs are fine in them.
Pig's who graze......
I keep Kune Kunes and it's true that they graze and don't root (as badly) as other breeds. Those not kept for breeding can maintain themselves on grass and a bit of fruit and veg through the summer, but they still need feeding in the months when there's not much grass. If they are for breeding or if they're under a year old they should be fed at least 1lb of hard feed daily (they need the vitamins, minerals and protien for good bones and long term health) So they don't survuve on grass alone I'm afraid :-\
Large Blacks are another breed I keep and I definately wouldn't use the term 'grazer' more 'browser/forrager' they do eat grass, and roots, and big lumps of earth as they dig it up ::) but I wouldn't say it's 50% of their diet, more like 20% - ours still get 5lbs of food a day, even when the grass is in good supply - they're not over fat pigs either ;). I think on half rations of pig food you'd have very hungry pigs who would be either very vocal or escaping looking for food and longer term you'd find they took longer to finish or had problems when it came to breeding.
Don't keep Saddlebacks, so can't comment on them really - but I suspect they're the same as the Large Black.
Try and read as much as you can and visit forums for advice - it's good to get as many viewpoints as possible and use the experiences of folk who are keeping them already. Everybody has their own way of doing things (as it should be, cos we've all got our favourite breeds and different set-ups to consider) pick and mix to find what works best for you, but just don't scrimp on the feeding :thumbsup:
HTH
Karen :wave:
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Robert - "Choosing and keeping pigs" by Linda McDonald-Brown. (p127. GOS) Also says the Large Black can get 50% of its food intake from grass and says that the B/saddleback is a grazer.
Ah well heres me going in the baby corner, don't know how to put this but if you're using the above book as your bible well err take it with a pinch of salt! Get a good one starting with pigs by andy case or carol harris keeping traditional pigs. go for it with a couple of wenaers to fatten and see how you go its all about what learning what works for you.
Mandy :pig:
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...just as well I posted....(re mythical grazing pigs).
But still wouldn't / don't support rearing of pigs with no external /paddock access. I'll leave it another month till spring is definitely here and get something sorted out using what we've got. Thx.
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I don't know what numbers you're looking at, smudger, but for a small number, would it work to run them out in the morning and back into the yards and sties at night? Once they know the food will be at the other end, you don't need any fencing, gates, or anything, they'll all happily run along to the other trough. They'd need some rain shelter in the orchard, but that doesn't need to be nearly as robust as a permanent shelter.
smudger, I thought, as you do, that a happy pig was necessarily an outdoor pig. And then I went through a winter with my own homebred OSB x Saddleback youngsters, and saw them shivering as they plodged about in cold wet mud. The adult OSB sow was in better shape, being bigger and older, but I felt sorry for her some of the time, and made sure she had plenty of straw to make herself a big thick doormat for drying herself off as she came in from the cold and wet, and fed her at the edge of her doormat when the conditions were particularly foul. The youngsters ended up housed for a significant portion of the cold, wet winter, only being put out for the day when the ground was drier and/or it was warm even if still wet. I took them for a walk a few times, which they clearly enjoyed, but I have to say they never showed any distresss at being housed and delighted in seeing people for fuss and the occasional treat, as their pen was at the entrance to our cattle shed, so a fairly high traffic area.
I won't have that pen available in future years, plus I really do prefer them to be happy outdoors as they grow, so in my case, I am now thinking that I will try to work on one litter a year, to be away before the worst of the winter if possible, but at least to be big enough by the time that comes to withstand the wet and cold (as long as they have sufficient straw and a weatherproof shelter.)
you can call pork organic if it was kept in a coalhouse and fed organic food!
Sorry to correct you Mandy, but that isn't correct. All organic livestock has to be free-range as well as being fed organic food and kept on organic land. Organic producers are allowed to finish pigs in strawed yards but the majority of their lives are outdoors. I think most certification bodies will give dispensations for housing pigs when their ground is miserably wet and cold (see above!) - but I think you bring yours under cover and onto hardstanding for the winter, too, don't you?
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smudger, I thought, as you do, that a happy pig was necessarily an outdoor pig. And then I went through a winter with my own homebred OSB x Saddleback youngsters, and saw them shivering as they plodged about in cold wet mud.
i agree, living out all year round has its negetives aswell as positives for the animals. all our animals are native, and all live out, but sometimes they would love to come in out of mud/gales/rain etc youngsters find it harder too.
;)
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Smudger - I too attended a "Pig keeping course" and was very disappointed to see "rare breed - free range" pigs overcrowded and kept in an arc that floated on mud. The handfull of pellets given to them sunk in the mud and the pigs had to sift the slurry / mud to get some food. What constitutes "free range" was a real disappointment and like you I want to work with what I have to give my pigs a good life and to do it economically that yields good meat.
We are lucky as the old barn has a piggery built in. Inside they have stone flag floor and liquid waste flows down a slope to an exit drain. They have a sleeping area, feeding area and toilet area that is part partitioned by a wooden "fence". The ceiling is low with compacted soil above it for insulation.
I generally leave their door open and when wet chuck straw just outside their door. We don't have the wood and land that Eve and others describe but they do have a fair sized field.
As Robert says they trash the soil and enjoy digging up large stones near the barn. We seem to have a clay pit area but most of the field is free draining good soil.
Most old "frermettes" in this area have a similar buildings but the young farmers focus on cattle with the old not able to keep the full range of animals they used to. They visit our pigs with veg and fruit ( even this week they bring stuff from their cellars).
I think we are very lucky and know I would not keep 11 pigs in a mud bath the size of my downstairs room.
good luck. Martin ( Limousin,France)
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you can call pork organic if it was kept in a coalhouse and fed organic food!
Sorry to correct you Mandy, but that isn't correct. All organic livestock has to be free-range as well as being fed organic food and kept on organic land. Organic producers are allowed to finish pigs in strawed yards but the majority of their lives are outdoors. I think most certification bodies will give dispensations for housing pigs when their ground is miserably wet and cold (see above!) - but I think you bring yours under cover and onto hardstanding for the winter, too, don't you?
But they do the coalhouse thing.......believe me! ::)
And yes i do bring mine in over winter, they have big yards to maraud in and cosy stables/byres and they get let out in turn every other day for a plod round the garden/orchard/rummage in compost heap, a slurp of all the bottles in the bottle bank! or to thieve from the sack of potatoes kept in the garage and have even been known to have a rake in the kitchen bin!! (no more leaving back door open!)
You have to judge whats best for you and your pigs, i have seen pigs kept in squalid conditions and their owners think its ok becoz " pigs like muck don't they?" eh no not 5ft deep poo so their heads are banging on the ceiling or their coats are so matted you have to cut the poo out with scissors or their foods so deep in the mud they can't eat it or their waters so rank they can't drink!
So winterwise (lucky its been so mild but boy has it been wet) don't feel guilty about bringing them in, pigs are very like humans a dry place to sleep, free from draughts, food & drink and a corner away from their house to do their business. In my opinion 'dirty' pigs equals lazy stupid ignorant owners. ::)
Mandy :pig:
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when we built our shed it was designed for the french system an area of outside field that if the pigs wanted they could go to free access with concrete area and inside sleeping area the only downside is it needs a false ceiling inside to retain heat in winter
the majority of farms in Britain used to have the varied livestock enterprises but this changed in the late 50 early sixty's to mono systems that are in place now it is easier to feed and maintain 100 cattle in a modern environment than lookafter 10 in the old systems and give free time
free range up to there guts in glabber is all down to the individual stock keeper and there situation
pigs do trash the ground even in free draining areas and it does take skillfull management to bring that area back from pigs to production even providing grass year on year to these mythical pigs that survive on grass :farmer:
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you really are trying to get me kicked of this forum i fully support Mandy in what she says and do know if it happening but that is up to those concerned and there conscience
and for the record i am not a believer in the organic thing and was around when FASL was launched to pay at that time £100 a year to get the FASL certificate and when cattle came into the ring it did not put one penny on the price and were always the poorest examples for sale
i did it my way and always topped the market when selling :farmer:
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Mine have a dedicated outside area which is grassed (well, it is when they arrive, not a blade to be seen when they go). When the pigs go nothing else goes in there, it's cleaned out and the grass is regrown. The grass is rested for about a year. I'm lucky in that I have enough land to be able to do this.
Our 'arks' are homemade and no matter how strong they still chew them, rub them and destroy them, so they are burnt (might learn from the three little pig story and make the next one from block). The pigs enoy sleeping in them and it gives them a place to get out of the wind/sun/rain.
Can't stress enough how important it is to have good strong posts and barriers around the perimiter.
Besides pignuts, mine also get hay bales to play with (without the baler twine), and a ball which has pignuts placed in it. Plus green stuff from the veg garden.
We do have the old 'piggery' adjacent to one of the farm buildings, but we don't use it as unfortunately it is not next to a field and although I know of those that do it, I don't like the idea of a pig which is kept inside and never feels the sun on it's back..
:pig:
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We do have the old 'piggery' adjacent to one of the farm buildings, but we don't use it as unfortunately it is not next to a field and although I know of those that do it, I don't like the idea of a pig which is kept inside and never feels the sun on it's back..
:pig:
Agree one hundred per cent oolala but sometims in winter needs must especially on our heavy clay, it also gives my paddocks chance to rest.
Mandy :pig:
Ps forgot to say i don't belive in organic either its just a rip off! So long as you know what you've fed your pigs and how they've been kept that good enuff in my view.
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If only our 'old 'piggery' was next to a field, such a waste, but heyho.
Ours don't overwinter, they go early Winter after the apple crop is in and they've had a good few weeks chomping on those, but understand totally those that have to live in for a while, as we are on clay too. It's the poor things that are locked up 100% of the time in small spaces, without even a decent window for natural light that I don't agree with.
Mine (2) have about a 1/4 of an acre, but they are only on it for fattening and then it is rested, so it doesn't get overworked. When the new pigs arrive it's like a jungle out there as I let it grow wild (they love rummaging through it).
:pig:
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Mine are out in the field with arks on hard standing :) no fixed building in place anywhere and they are out and about 24/7 :)
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Ps forgot to say i don't belive in organic either its just a rip off! So long as you know what you've fed your pigs and how they've been kept that good enuff in my view.
They were saying a really similar thing on telly the other night. Had someone from a supermarket on saying their sales of organic produce were down but sales of local & ethical products were up - so it would seem that organic isn't necessarlity top choice for consumers either.
I'd certainly prefer to buy local and high welfare, it wouldn't bother me that it wasn't labelled as organic.
Karen :wave:
Edit- Think so indeed Ohlala :o Fingers crossed it's sorted now ;)
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I think your quote box threw a huly happyhippy...... quote not mine.....
;)
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Check out swap shop under postal library topic have posted about a book which may be of interest to anyone thinking of keeping a small commercial herd.
Mandy :pig:
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Large blacks and GOS can more or less graze themselves to pork weight? News to me. Where on earth did that info come from?
I'm forever getting queries from people who want to start keeping pigs and expect them to fatten on fresh air. It's hard to believe that people don't understand the basics of nutrition.
Think I'd better go now, otherwise I might get myself into Robert-style trouble!
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o do come and join me in the corner that lovely welsh accent would take the boredom away :farmer: