The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: lee.arron on February 27, 2012, 01:11:18 pm
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I decided as i dont have many sheep and want to build up my numbers that any females born i was going to keep . so far ive got 4 boys and 1 girl. the plan was all go to market at 6 months origionally but as im having more to do with the lambs the market place is looking more and more less likely and i was wondering if selling them as possible tups for breeding , their dads a big full bred texel and the babies are looking just like him already and seems a waste to go as meat . Does this sound like a plan or unrealistic and how would i go about it.
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What are the mums?
My personal thinking is unless they are a cracking example of their breed, I would send them to market or eat them.
There are loads of ads out there for tups and you MIGHT struggle selling them as breeding tups, which would then leave you with a bunch of entire rams to deal with.
Things do seem to change, but the last time I kept sheep the markets weren't so favorable to entire rams for the meat market.
But like I said, it mught be different now.
Personally this time round, I am going to wether everything, and keep them for fleece animals. If the fleece is no good, they will go in the freezer.
Good luck whichever you decide :thumbsup:
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you don't say if the mother is texel and if both are pedigree
to many tup lambs are kept in the hope that they will make a good tup
lots of pedigree tups went unsold last year and good ones at that :farmer:
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mothers are mule really unsure what the crosses are between. and ones a pure charollais. got a few days to think wether to castrate them its too late for 2 of the boys i kept them entire. jut hope the rest are girls now
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Castrate them in the scenario you describe, IMO would be the right call. It isnt difficult and vet can show you if unsure and your fences will thank you for it :-))
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It is so easy to think' how sweet' and not want to eat/sell them....However in 6 months time when you cannot sell them and they are fighting and trying to get to your ewes you will regret the choice! Castrate anything that is not a superb example of a sheep.......preferably pedigree! Sorry but thats what breeding sheep is all about!
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I can see how it will become a problem in 6 months time so thats one decision made theyre being done. thanks for the advice people
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I never ball ram lambs if I can help it. Doesnt seem to make much difference to the price if you sell them on light.
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I've got Shetlands and keep the lambs for at least a year before slaughter so they have to be castrated. I use rings and hate doing it. I've got my legs crossed on their behalf for a couple of days afterwards :o :o
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Yep ours are Shetlands too and they dont go off until the following year so castration means they get a much longer life and altho I dont enjoy doing it Ive found it a lot less distressing to them than I expected. I also let th lambs wean naturally from Mum, I dont separate them until tupping time, which hasnt caused any issues but again, is only possible because the boys are castrated.
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If you dont castrate what age do you have to remove the little boy(s)?
This is my third year of lambs...all girls so far (I only have two mums)
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four to six months if they are intact you will see them riding each other that instinct to get one in is always there
the same argument for sheep as with pigs castrated you have no management problems leave them intact you may be lucky or not it is your preference :farmer:
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I wean at 4mos. The reason I dont castrate is that I lamb outdoors on an easy care system and I dont do anything that has the potential to interfere with mothering or give a site for infection if I can help it. The slightly reduced price is worth it in terms of numbers of lambs reared.
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castrate them how old are the older 2 it may not be too late big mistake geting atached to them we already have 2 wethers (pet lambs) from last 2 years this year we arnt keeping any all going to market or in the frezer its no good feeding loads of wethers and as tups they would be worth no more tham meat price and probly would end up there anyway there are plenty of cheap pure breed tups so why would you buy a cross breed?
if you are just geting atached to things and wanting to keep then all or home them (you think thats what your doing but buyer will send them in and make on them) then i sugest you just keep a feild of wethers and dont tup the ewes ;D
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I wean at 4mos. The reason I dont castrate is that I lamb outdoors on an easy care system and I dont do anything that has the potential to interfere with mothering or give a site for infection if I can help it. The slightly reduced price is worth it in terms of numbers of lambs reared.
I also lamb outdoors; havent found any mothering problems with the castration: but to be fair the Shetlands I have, I havent had a single problematic birth or mothering problem in 4 years so far, so maybe just lucky!
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I agree with what's been said so far. Only a small percentage of tups should ever be kept for breeding. They are 50% of your flock and there is no point in keep rubbish as it will only come back to bite you on the bum with sub standard stock.
Rams that are sold for breeding are pure bred, not crosses, so sorry, but send them off. Look at sheep breeds you want to keep and go for those if you want to. Otherwise, source a quality ram who will provide you with lambs that will be of use to you and change him every few years.
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castrate them how old are the older 2 it may not be too late big mistake geting atached to them we already have 2 wethers (pet lambs) from last 2 years this year we arnt keeping any all going to market or in the frezer its no good feeding loads of wethers and as tups they would be worth no more tham meat price and probly would end up there anyway there are plenty of cheap pure breed tups so why would you buy a cross breed?
if you are just geting atached to things and wanting to keep then all or home them (you think thats what your doing but buyer will send them in and make on them) then i sugest you just keep a feild of wethers and dont tup the ewes ;D
As it is my first year breeding i was just wondering what other people will be doing with their lambs, obviously if i wanted a load of pets then i would keep a field of puppys and kittens , i wont lie you do get attatched to something you have cared for whilst growing inside for the last 5 months however i also understand that a decision has to be made and of course it comes down to money and as i havnt really the experience of the market place am unable to evaluate market forces . however I have made the decision and continued to castrate any more lambs being born and will be going to market
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Well, all my rams, like yours, will be castrated and sent as fat or store lambs at the end of this year beginning of next. The ewes will be kept back and either sent as fat or run on for breeding. Mine are all pure bred. Hope this helps.
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Rams that are sold for breeding are pure bred, not crosses, so sorry, but send them off....
Except if you use a SufTex ram, of course... :P
I don't keep my rams entire in the hope of producing a saleable tup to be honest, and unless I see one thats exceptional, Id never consider it. However, I'd never buy a tup without his EBV sheet and it wouldn't pay me to have those done just yet, but watch this space, my flock is ever expanding...
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Rams that are sold for breeding are pure bred, not crosses, so sorry, but send them off....
Except if you use a SufTex ram, of course... :P
Or Beltex x Texel, or Dutch Texel x Texel, or Beltex x Charollais... There are some crosses out there that make good tups for certain situations, but in my experience, generally farmers will buy their tups from breeders known for producing good tups and who will stand behind them. Saving a hundred or two on a tup who will sire at least a hundred lambs a season for each of several years doesn't make commercial sense.
There will be different factors for a smallholder buying a tup - but I would think most of them would want a pure-bred tup, and if it's for only a few sheep then money can be saved by buying an aged tup who cannot be used on his daughters any more. He'll be worth less in the fat than a lamb or shearling, and many farmers will be more than happy to sell a faithful servant for the fat price if he's going to a good home where he'll work for a few more years.
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I only buy in a pure breed ram as my sheep are all pure bred.
Females are kept in the flock, males castrated. One male will be retained this year as a wether, any other males will most likely be store lambs.
:sheep:
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I kept two entire ram lambs last year. One I registered and sold to another breeder, the other I am hoping to show this year. To be frank I spent hours watching and then didn't make my mind up finally until another breeder arrived and unprompted picked out the boy I had been watching as one to keep and register. And even when the decision is made it is still easy to get things wrong and find you need to harden your heart. Yesterday I saw a ram lamb on its way to the abbatoir that an experienced breeder had selected and registered only to find that as he matured his movement was incorrect. You can forgive faults in a ewe that condemn a ram. By way of example I have one of last years Jacob ewe lambs here. She is lovely except for a small black spot on one fore leg. Had she been a ram lamb then that small black spot would probably have been enough for me to decide not to retain her. The ram really is half the flock.
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Or Beltex x Texel, or Dutch Texel x Texel, or Beltex x Charollais... There are some crosses out there that make good tups for certain situations, but in my experience, generally farmers will buy their tups from breeders known for producing good tups and who will stand behind them. Saving a hundred or two on a tup who will sire at least a hundred lambs a season for each of several years doesn't make commercial sense.
There will be different factors for a smallholder buying a tup - but I would think most of them would want a pure-bred tup, and if it's for only a few sheep then money can be saved by buying an aged tup who cannot be used on his daughters any more. He'll be worth less in the fat than a lamb or shearling, and many farmers will be more than happy to sell a faithful servant for the fat price if he's going to a good home where he'll work for a few more years.
I know, I know. I was being a touch facetious..... ;)
I'm a sucker for a composite myself and my commercial terminal sire will be a Meatlinc (or possibly a Primera), athough they seem to class a Meatlinc as a breed now.
I certainly bought an old pure tup for my Wiltshire flock - I got him for 200 quid and this year, due to my rapid expansion, he still served 62 ewes no problem.
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Aye, there's many a bargain been had as an aged tup.
I bought a retiring 'stock tup' from the bloke I got my Blue-faced Leicesters from; only £100 (along with a couple of full-priced young tups) as he was thought to be likely to only make one more season. He did two, and threw some of the best mule ewe lambs we bred.
When we decided to try Charollais on our Texels here, we got an aged tup who would be serving his daughters if he stayed with the man who bred him. He'd paid over £3,000 for him as a shearling, we got him for £450 and he did two years for us.
And 'twas my neighbour's aged Swaley tup near broke my leg... but that was my own stupid fault, and that tup sired some super ewe lambs.
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I would agree with everyone else - sell the male lambs for meat rather than breeding.
You can sell them straight off the ewes at weaning - aim for @ 12 weeks of age and the prices should still be good. In that case there's no point in castrating as they'll grow faster entire and they won't live long enough to tup their mothers.
Also, there is no difference in price for ram lambs of that age, compared with wethers.
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You can sell them straight off the ewes at weaning - aim for @ 12 weeks of age and the prices should still be good. In that case there's no point in castrating as they'll grow faster entire and they won't live long enough to tup their mothers.
It's true... but some cautionary tales :
- the Swaledale breeder who never castrates his tup lambs as he sells them as stores, and the price is the same whether wether or tup ... so that in 2007, when we had an outbreak of FMD and no-one could move anything except straight to slaughter ... and Swales don't reach slaughter weight until well into the back end... then did he find that his fences were not equal to horny horny little tups!! ;);D (I can laugh - I'm not an immediate neighbour!)
- us, every year, with the early single tup lambs left entire as they'll be away before they can tup their mothers... except there's always one (or more) gets lame, or struck, or some other problem, which means it/they are still around when some of the early girls start coming into season... mind, some of these accidental matings have produced some very good lambs :D
Also, there is no difference in price for ram lambs of that age, compared with wethers.
We don't see any difference here in price for ram lambs vs wethers full stop, not even as hoggs.
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Up to now I've always castrated my male lambs as they are going to market but not till they are up to weight which is usually six months or so. As I keep them all together I don't want to risk entire lambs mating their mums!
This year I will be having some pure bred lambs and will have to have a good look at the males to see if any are worth keeping entire, although I'd say it must be a bit difficult to size them up in a week which is the time they should be castrated by ???. I think if I keep any males entire they will have to be outstanding!
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But we're not talking about Swaledale, we are talking about Texels which will easily fatten and be away in under 6 months.
Obviously you have to target your market and act accordingly.
I am NOT advocating that you leave entire any male lambs destined as stores as, yes, you will get a lot less for them.
And as for the casualty with broken leg, whatever, well he will go nicely in the freezer.
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Hi. Our first time lambing too. They haven't arrived yet but the plan is to eat them.
I know I won't want to but it's a question of space for us.
If we keep the lambs we'll have to send our tup back because we don't want him going with his own daughters, and we don't have the room to keep the tup and the ewes and the lambs all separated.
In the end, it just seems easier to eat the lambs and then all we need to do is keep our tup and ewes apart until November again.
Noit sure if this will help- and it seems obvious- but you need to lok at how much room you have and think about the logistics of managing the flock.
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We don't see any difference here in price for ram lambs vs wethers full stop, not even as hoggs.
That tend to be the case if you are selling finished lambs, but if you want to sell tup lambs as stores, they tend to get a slightly beeter price entire. A lot of stores, particularly mountain breeds like ours, tend to go on to be finished for the asian market and they don't want them if they are castrated.
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But we're not talking about Swaledale, we are talking about Texels which will easily fatten and be away in under 6 months.
Texels which don't go lame, get struck, or otherwise ail, will fatten, yes - and that's the point. They won't all, so sooner or later you'll get a sexually active entire you can't get away - or more than one - and have some logisitical problems. If that would be a real problem to you, then castrate. If you could cope, then fine, don't castrate and cross your fingers instead! :D
And as for the casualty with broken leg, whatever, well he will go nicely in the freezer.
It won't need to be broken to stop him fittening sufficiently to get him away - or even to be fit to travel. But generally they can be fittened and made sound, it just may take longer than is convenient, given his testicles... ;)
Plus, if he's a good Texel he's worth £80-£100 fit, so in my case, I'm not allowed to put them in our freezer if we can get them away at all! :D :D
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Texels which don't go lame, get struck, or otherwise ail, will fatten, yes - and that's the point. They won't all, so sooner or later you'll get a sexually active entire you can't get away - or more than one - and have some logisitical problems. If that would be a real problem to you, then castrate. If you could cope, then fine, don't castrate and cross your fingers instead! :D
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I think it's fair to assume that Lee. Arron is not a complete numpty and can treat his sheep's feet and look out for fly strike :-\
If you are always looking for the bleakest outlook and worse case scenario, then you are in the wrong job, keeping sheep. :) :thumbsup:
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I think it's fair to assume that Lee. Arron is not a complete numpty and can treat his sheep's feet and look out for fly strike :-\
Hmmm... well, you either think I did assume that Lee is a numpty (Lee :wave: I didn't and don't! :)) or you think I am a complete numpty since I clearly do get lame and strucken Texels!
I will defend, if not to the death then certainly to the point of quite a bit of discomfort, your right to hold and express your opinion, whether or not I agree with it, so I shall just have to take that one on the chin!
If you are always looking for the bleakest outlook and worse case scenario, then you are in the wrong job, keeping sheep. :) :thumbsup:
Well, a lot of sheep farmers would agree with you there; most of them bemoan the fact that they have to farm these wilfully self-destructive woolly creatures ;) But then no farmer is happy unless s/he's got something to grumble about ... and many of these same sheep farmers retire to a little bungalow... with a few acres... on which they keep a few sheep ... ;) :D
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I love Sallyintnorth and her words of wisdom. I wish I knew a quarter of what she knows about sheepies.
In my 20+ years of 'smallholding' i have never known of any other breed of animal which requires as much attention and looking after as sheep. Guess that's part of the reason why it took me so long to actually get everything ready for them. And even then there is still plenty more to do, Stuff that only experience (and preference) could tell me.
Everything is a potential hazard when it comes to sheep; for example, our ram put his head into a bucket, picked it up on his head then ran around the field with it on there. I got it off, no harm done.
If there is a pickle they can get into, they will. But i still lurrrv 'em........
:sheep: :love: :sheep:
PS: i should add i was right next to the ram when he put his head into the bucket (it was one of those wide buckets) and i had put it down by my feet whilst I opened the gate.
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I love Sallyintnorth and her words of wisdom. I wish I knew a quarter of what she knows about sheepies.
Oh, bless you OhLaLa :-* I still get it spectacularly wrong sometimes, mind...
Everything is a potential hazard when it comes to sheep; for example, our ram put his head into a bucket, picked it up on his head then ran around the field with it on there. I got it off, no harm done.
Yep, been there, done that one ... will try to find pic of Swaledale ewe with 'nosebag' (bucket stuck on horns) running blindly around her little paddock... ;) :D
You are quite right, OhLaLa, if they can find a way of getting into trouble, causing their owner some grief or, better yet, some embarrassment, they surely will ... and yet, we love 'em. Well, some of 'em anyway. The rest we eat. ;)