The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: rustyme on March 28, 2009, 01:02:39 pm
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I was thinking last night about how near I am to spending most or all of my time on my land . I am very near to it really . There are plenty of things that need doing before I leap (well gently slide really ),but the most time consuming part , as with any move , is shifting stuff. I hope to do this gradually to avoid that horrid confusing pile of STUFF dumped anywhere !!! Money is a big player in my decision , as the longer I stay where I am the more expensive living becomes , and therefore the longer it will take me to be able to move ...catch 22 really . So as prices start to increase again , I think there may be a time when I just say sod it and jump !!!, I am not at that stage yet ??? but pretty close. I therefore thought , rather than just dissappear, I had better just say my goodbyes now . I may just wake up and go tomorrow or it could be 18 months down the road , I don't know .
I have enjoyed being on this forum , listening to what others are doing , and learning from everyone, and when I go it will be one of the things I will miss most, well after my breadmaker anyway !! ::) ;D I shall be around for a bit longer ( I hope ??) but in case things move faster than planned , I will say goodbye and wish you all the best in you individual endeavours .
cheers
Russ...
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Post your location on the map. Come Armageddon, I might need to call round! Best of luck Russ. Anytime you see a free computer, drop by and say hello1
Morgan
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already on the map mate.....I will be around for a while yet though .... but come armageddon , if you do drop by , watch out for the arrows !!!!! ::) ;D
cheers
Russ
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good luck :)
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Sad to see you go :'( what are you going to be doing? I love chopping and changing, I have loads I would like to do and hope to do, sadly, money plays a big part in any life changes.....Ta taa :bfly:
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What will I be doing ? ... blimey ....mainly growing all my own veg , if I can't grow it I won't eat it !! I have also got enough people who will buy veg off me to, so I shall be increasing the veg plot size to half an acre ,maybe more. I will be growing all my own wheat, barley, oats and rye , all my own fruit ,apples , pears, green gauges/plums, as well as plenty of berries etc. Increasing my bees to get to about 15 hives hopefully. Keeping pigs, sheep,cows ,chickens etc training my horses to work /plough etc. Making my waterwheel and installing it , digging a mill pond ???? growing and cropping the willow beds to supply fire wood, converting it into charcoal for the foundry and the forge ,and making baskets etc. Making all my own carts and wagons for use with the horses (not using modern wheels but making proper wooden ones) , growing sunflowers and rapeseed for oil to run an old lister genny and to power the tractor when used .Growing cotton plants and spinning the cotton as well as wool off the sheep . Then weaving it all on the loom !! The list goes on , most of it is only time consuming for very short periods , so is easy to fit in , but taken as a whole , they will all fill my time and feed me and give me the way of life I want . I actually hate change , but it isn't that much of a change for me really as I have been doing most of this already for some time , or at least getting everything ready to do it .It is funny how one thing relates to another and intertwines , it will keep me busy anyway ...
cheers
Russ
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Please do stay in touch (local library??), your experience and comments will be sadly missed! :&>
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a neighbour may well have wireless broad band, so I may be able to piggy back his connection now and then , in exchange for some eggs or veg...?? However once there I think that will be way down the list of things to do for some time !!!! The library is 7 miles away , to far for me to walk these days ...lol. In summer months I may go over to my nephews to tend either veg or grain I may grow there ( haven't asked him yet , but he will let me ) so I could use his pc then , I am also going to keep my mobile phone and the new upgrade I looked at the other day also has proper internet on it ...handy ...trouble is there is no signal down on the land...lol... so it would mean a walk up over a few fields. Ok in summer ... but I can guarantee I won't be doing it in winter :o :D
cheers
Russ
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Sod the bow and arrows...a mans best firends are Arthur Guinness, and Mr Smith and Mr wesson! Lol
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Arthur Guinness ? he who 'invented' the drink? I don't drink ::) ;D I know boring old sod....as for Smith+Wesson , well I can't make them or the bullits to shoot ...but I can make my own bows and arrows !!!!! and I can hit a 4" round at over 120 yards....(sometimes!!!) I just have to live in hope that the anarchists with the guns, run out of ammo before they find MEEEEE he he he ....
cheers
Russ
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Friend Russ,
I'll miss your advice,ever cheerful disposition and humour. I wish all the luck in the world on your new venture and look forward to seeing the odd post from you in the future.Be safe and look after yourself..... Ree
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cheers Ree,
cheerful disposition and humour ?????? (the end is nigh , armageddon , social collapse , EU dictatorship ,big brother, bird flu pandemic ) errrr well yes ... if you don't laugh you would only cry !!!! ::) ;D..
I will be about for a bit yet though mate ....I have made a few canoes , one canadian and one sea type kayack plus a few others along with a few small row boats and a coracle or two !! I still have an urge to make a narrow boat out of wood......good luck to you too mate ...
cheers
Russ
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Blimey - what a shock :o :o but WOW, good for you - go for it...................but PLEEEEEEZE try and mosey over to a P.C. every so often an give us an update, won't you?
Very best wishes........although you ain't gone yet.......and think of me STILL trying to work out what to do with my Willow ::)
:farmer: Cheers
Mandy..........................STILL lambing............ :sheep:
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Exciting stuff Russ! Good luck in whatever you do. It would be great to hear how it's going from time to time - I thought I was brave giving up my teaching job to become more self-sufficient this year! Well done you!
Carole
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Maye a documentary can be made of your self sufficiency, the money you get from that will pay for a few sessions on the internet, another idea is you could have pigeons, put notes on their legs and send them to someone with Internet to write up on this site, there, sorted.....
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hello Mandy,
sorry forgot about the willow !!!,I have a brain like a sieve , jog my memory about the willow ???? . I have a had a few major things hit the fan here, with some being left with unkown results, hence the rethink (bringing forward) on present and future plans . One way or another I will be able to get online 3 or 4 times a year , I should think . I may still even get the phone line put on ? So everything will remain as normal , but that decision is a way off at the moment...
cheers
Russ
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Sandy,
lol... I used to keep pigeons and they would seem to fit into my plans better than the documentary !!!! :D It would be my luck though , that a falcon would zap the poor old pigeon while delivering the info ......
Carole,
I am not brave at all really , I will just be doing what I have been doing for a few years now ... but without the internet ::) :D , and I have only had that for about 5 years so it won't take that long to get used to not having it again... ::) maybe???? never even had a pc till I was 42 .... learnt dos and how to program in basic etc and then build all my own pc's . However that all took me in a direction completely opposite to the one I wanted to go , so heading back the other way now...lol.
cheers
Russ
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Can I seem really stupid and ask why you have to give up the internet? You already have a computer so the cost of that is not the problem. So are you giving up your phone line? or are you moving somewhere without a phone line? or are you just giving up internet connection? Are these very expensive? It seems to me that the internet is a great leveller and communicator and no matter how much some people think it is a means of keeping watch on us it is now an established part of modern day life and will become more and more indispensable as time goes on.
Annie
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hello Annie,
you don't seem stupid at all mate !!!! I have my land, which is about 2.5 miles from where I live on another farm (in a mobile home/static caravan ), and I will be moving onto my land full time sometime soon. My land doesn't have electricity or a phone line , it only has 3 springs for water. I could never afford electric to be put on and I will only be able to have internet if I get a phone line put on . This could cost the minimum , about £75 or it could cost anything upto £1500. If it was £1500 then it is a total forget job. If it were £75 , then I would be able to afford it , but I haven't made up my mind if I want the bill each quarter. My phone and internet connection costs at present £100 give or take £10 a quarter, and that really stings . I have only had a land line for about 4 years, so got by for 47 years without one , and can not make up my mind how much I think I need one now. I may find after being without one for 6 months that I decide to get one fitted , I won't know though until I am there full time. Modern life, with all the associated bills, is what I am getting away from . I have had my fill of it all , and I really want a simpler way of living . I don't mean I want to live in a cave , I just want to get rid of all the stuff, I can neither afford, nor do I want !! The computer I will keep if I can , but it does use a lot of leccy . A laptop uses much less , but you can't build them at home which is how I have always got my pcs in the past. So a case of swings and roundabouts there really . I will still be able to have a tv , although there is no signal there, a satellite dish will get me all the stations I want . A tv and dish and dvd will all run off of 12 volt so I will be keeping a foot in the present ( well a toe anyway ) . That covers it really I think ??..... :D
cheers
Russ
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Sorry I miss understood your Good Bye, I thought you were no longer going to do smallholding type stuff, that's why I asked what are you going to do, well I think it is a giant step but better a giant step than regrets. I know we would all like to be self sufficient, although, I thrive on change although like to keep in touch with people and get advice from the internet so I am sure that would be a luxury I would really find it hard to do without....Well done!!!!! I can hear the cheers!!!
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god no Sandy .. that really would be a change I am not prepared to make :o :o. I will always do my smallholding, self sufficiency bit, till I drop .... I must have somewhere in the region of 2,000 books . Most of which are on farming, smallholding , woodwork , metal work and how to do it books in general , plus I have thousands of files and ebooks on cd/dvd and hard drive . If I aint already got it I doubt I really need it ...lol.
cheers
Russ
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Well done Russ!
When it comes, the very best of luck with it. We're a long way from the things you plan (I hope!) as we run a B&B for income so have to have most mod cons. Don't suppose that will last forever though and in not too many years we'll all be in the same boat no doubt.
You'll have to write a book in all that "spare time" you'll have :D
Dave
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Thats what lifew should be about, looking after the earth and yourself. :)
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you know, when i 1st read Rustyme's original post, i thought you might be dying or contemplating suicide - i was a bit taken aback
anyway, good luck and try keep in touch.
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I'm sorry but I still don't understand. If you can't afford to put electricity in how can you have a tv or a computer? I suppose you could have a generator but they don't produce much power and they cost a lot to run on diesel if full time. I must be really think 'cos none of it makes sense to me. I like my creature comforts. A cosy bed, a warm home, my PC mad the internet. Good luck whatever you do. I feel sad like I'm losing a friend.
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I feel sad like I'm losing a friend.
blimey Annie.... you got me there, brought a lump to my throat and choked me reading that ..... :(
as for creature comforts well I will have a nice warm fire and a comfy bed and a nice sofa etc to sit on and the tv will run off of 12volt batteries which will in turn be charged by an alternator run by the river and by solar panels and a small wind turbine . I will have an old lister genny which would run most things in a house just not all at the same time ...lol , but mainly I will just be using much less electricity than a normal houshold. I have lived without it completely , didn't like that much at all really !! So I will have electric lights , a tv, dvd a fridge although the fridge may well be a 3 way one , that runs on 12volt/240volt and gas . I won't have an electric kettle or toaster or things like that , I will use a gas cooker or the woodburner for those things. So although I won't have mains electric , I will have most things I want just not powered by mains . I have lived without lots of things for years now , so I am already used to it to a great extent. I will , in all probability, be around for a year or so yet , and who knows what can happen in that time ? Although I have a basic road/route I am traveling along , I may end up taking a side turning here and there , as we all do as we go along . Nothing in my 'plan' is set in concrete as so many things can change from day to day let alone from year to year. However , My wood/gas/water/solar powered time machine will take me back somwhere !!! how far ? who knows ? thats all part of the fun . ::) :bouquet:
cheers
Russ
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sellickbhoy,
errr... I am not dying anymore than anyone else ( I hope ) although I feel like I am at times ... ::) , no i am fine , and if you knew me , you would know topping myself would never be on the cards !!! no matter what !!!....you don't get shot of me THAT easy .... I will only go, kicking and screaming all the way ::) Crickey ... I will have to make sure I read what I write in future......Sorry if it came across that way though mate....but rest assured .. I fully intend to outlive every bugger on this planet...
cheers
Russ
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Ok, I'm reassured now :-[- You seem very well organised and I applaud you for your forethought and attempts to minimise your use of our World. I wish I was as brave and forward thinking. I do think it is easier for a man though. ::) If I wanted to go down the same avenue (and I would have liked to if John had still been alive - he was very eco conscious too) I just don't have the physical strength to do some of the tasks that will be required. I wish you all the luck in the world and look forward to you updating us stage by stage. We would miss your wise words on here :(
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I'm dying to know how the water wheel goes. I've a stream at the back of mine and have always been tempted to try, just lacked the expertise....Rusty i'm in your hands on this water wheel concept if you're willing to lend a hand, and pass on your knowledge...please.
Morgan :farmer:
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Hello Morgan,
my knowledge is only based on the water wheels that used to be all over the UK. Some are still there , many have gone. My main use of a water wheel will be for actual power ...ie to run a circular saw , or a lathe or power hammer ,or even a loom . Basically anything that used to be run by water power years ago . All the technology is still there to be seen , you just need to go to the right museum . I do intend to run an alternator off of the wheel as well . This is where things get tricky ... I will start with just a car alternator to charge batteries. Now a car alternator normally runs much faster than a water wheel , my w/wheel will be about 12' dia. and will turn relatively slowly. Therefore there is no point in trying to run it off of the w/wheels axle, it will hardly be turning at all . To have a huge fan belt going all the way round the w/wheel and then the alternator pulley, wouldn't work either ...the belt would cost an absolute fortune and would rot in no time .I will therefore be fitting teeth all the way round the dia of the w/wheel and they will in turn fit into something similar to a motor bike sprocket fitted instead of the pulley . This is where you have to work out different ratios to find out the speed the w/wheel will turn the sprocket on the alternator, ie if the wheel was 10' dia and the sprocket 1' dia , you have a 10 to 1 ratio . Mine will be about , water wheel = 144" dia, sprocket maybe = 4" , that should be about 36-1 ratio.....You then have the speed the alternator will run at . I am looking at finding different gearboxes to to run off of the wheel direct , instead of the alternator , so I can then turn 360 rpm through that gearbox which would be say 3 - 1 , and thus give me 1080 rpm , which would then run the alternator quiet well. Trouble is you get all sorts of power losses each time you go through a gearbox or even pulleys or sprockets . So it will be trial and error once I have the wheel made and in situ. Thats one of the problems ... another is the type of wheel you have ..ie over shot or under shot . An overshot wheel is where the water comes to the wheel along a wooden or metal shute and hits the wheel near the top , and then the weight of water turns the wheel . This is about the most efficient type , giving you about 80% efficiency. An undershot wheel is where the wheel is powered by water just flowing along as if it were still in the river...ie at the bottom of the wheel . These are about 20% efficient , a big difference. If you have a stream with a head of say 20 ft, then you can go for an over shot . If you only have a stream with no head ie it just flows along a field with no discernable fall, then you have to go with an undershot . I only have the later , so I will dig a special cutting next to the river . I will then make a small dam and from that dam a little channel will feed water to the wheel . If you put the wheel direct in the river you get problems with winter flood water washing the wheel away etc. I will also be digging a mill pond up the hill from the river and feeding that from different sources to run the wheel as much as I can , as an overshot , thus giving me more effeciency from any given amount of water stored in the mill pond. So a two pronged attack lol... I would then be able to use the mill pond when maximum power was needed and the river when less was needed. I am lucky in that I have a section of river about 200 yards long , and I hope to have two wheels one each end . One will power the house and one the workshop and forge etc. I will then be able to use the saw bench , lathe , drill stand, sander,bandsaw etc in the woodwork shed , and a metalwork lathe , power hammer , drill stand etc in the forge/metalwork shed. I will also be able to mill wheat, crush/roll oats, barley etc and run any other old type static machinery I need , either direct or via line shafting and belts. Hope that gets your cogs turning !!!!!!lol... it will be suck it and see with me as I do it ....so more details as and when ...
cheers
Russ
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Lol, best of luck. I should be able to do the overshot with a nice fall. I would have to build a small dam and run a pipe from it to the water wheen. Should give me at least a 10 ' drop. I don't really want to put in a huge wheel though. Although that being said I could probably get away with a 10 ' one with only 5 ' showing from land level. I need to find out (fools guide), how to build a wheel and change wheel turns into electricity, use of gears etc. Thats where your experience will help! If you can
Thanks Russ,
Morgan
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(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc21/rustyme57/the%20Land/th_IMAG0044.jpg) (http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc21/rustyme57/the%20Land/?action=view¤t=IMAG0044.flv)
thats my river/stream. That was in summer , in winter it flows much faster. My main object is to obtain mechanical power from the wheel. Electricity from and alternator is an extra. If you are after a lot of electricity , you need either , a lot of water with a good drop , or lots of money and go micro hydro. I have neither, so I will basically just be making my wheel to provide mech. power , with a little leccy as a bonus. The wheel will be made out of scrap metal , a scaffold pole for the axle and bed frame angle iron for the body , and scrap sheet metal for the buckets . The axle will be sitting in/on a bed made from large tree sections bedded on concrete. Oh yes , remember that the outflow from the wheel will have to be at the same level as the river , otherwise the wheel will just be sitting in a pond!!! ->------o_______>_ . There are a number of water wheels on youtube , lots of different ideas . Mine will be just a copy of 200 year old technology , easy to make and maintain and it works , tried and tested. I don't want to reinvent the wheel !!! ::)
cheers
Russ
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si1oWJjBD6g
Just found this video on youtube, this is very much like I intend to do ....very very similar. It says in the video that it produces about 700-800 watts , so that gives a very good idea of what can be produced. My river has more water than that too , so I should be able to get all I need from my wheel.
cheers
Russ
ps: here is their site: http://www.pedleywheel.org.uk/index.html
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well rusty old mate got to say it will be a huge loss to this forum if you go, lets face it your a legend on here for all your wisdom and advise. not to mention a great sense of humour. hope you can find a way to keep in touch,were on the border of wales if you need help with anything ring me 07773821121 cheers......................neil
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thanks Neil,
very kind of you to say those things...I would miss the forum imensley. I learn something new everyday on here, and yourself and the other regulars seem more like family than 'just' people on a forum !! It is a warm friendly place made so by warm friendly people , who are always willing to help if at all possible!! I will have to make a big effort to try and keep contact anyway I can . Many thanks for the offer mate ....much appreciated.
cheers
Russ
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I hope your not completely off radar russ. I will miss your postings. While my computer stopped me using this site I could still read what everyone else posted. You are quite inspirational with your get up and go attitude. Lots of little pearls of wisdom and wit. A true warrior spirit. good luck.
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Hi Russ,
I just wanted to echo everyone else's best wishes with your off grid adventure.
I'll definately miss your posts - helpfull, informative, funny and bordering on the insane at times, definately on my wavelength ! ;)
I'm too far away to make any offer of real help, but if you ever find yourself coming to Scotland please feel free to get in touch - there's always a warm welcome here.
I'm such a techno freak now I just don't even know how I'd cope without a constant broadband connection, I'd feel like someone had cut off my leg (ah, the simple things in life ::))
Good luck with it when the time comes
Karen x
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Hello Carl , Karen,
Looks like I will have to keep posting somehow or other ::). It may just be a bit sporadic .
I never think that others should do as I do (or say ?), but I just relay how I am thinking or what I am doing or intend to do if circumstances allow. I think that just by saying these things, they open other peoples minds to other points of view !! Not saying I am right or wrong , good or bad , just putting my way of thinking forward. It also helps me, by others saying how they see things !! Case in point : me dropping off radar ...lol. I didn't think about it much , just thought it was only manners, to say what may happen sometime soon . I thought it would be very rude and thoughtless to just disappear !! Although I never even touched a pc till I was 42 , I to have got very used to all the good points of broadband internet connection. It is so easy to get anything you want, anytime you want . I really don't know how I would cope with no internet at all ? It has become my form of entertainment !! So much information available it is mind boggling , well it boggles my mind anyway !! I don't travel about much at all , but I do have relatives up in Scotland. One in Keiss and another on Harris/ Lewis , so I could end up that way sometime? Thanks for the friendly words....
cheers
Russ
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thought I should update things here...I have a orange mobile contract, have had it for about ten years now , it is everyday 50 (not available now), I get 50 minutes of free phone calls everyday, for £15 ,so it is a very good deal really . Before I got a landline , it was how I connected to the internet . I used the mobile phone with infra red to connect via dialup...It drove me round the bend as mobile signal is very poor here , and it would fade in and out , so I would lose internet connection over and over again. Still , it got me on the net and I can always do that again only this time using bluetooth instead of infra red. However , I got a blackberry today , as my yearly free handset upgrade . It is a blackberry pearl 8120, and it has all the normal phone thingies plus full internet ....ha ha ...It is doing my head in at the moment ...trying to work out how much it will cost to connect to the internet ???? nowhere does it mention anything about cost !!! My phone costs are the same as always, 50 mins free and then 1p per min to land lines and orange mobile, and bars of gold to other networks. The thing is , it will connect to the net no probs .. but my nephew wants it ::) and I looked on ebay to see how much they go for ...£140 -£190...dilema....well not really I need the money more than I need a blackberry . So it looks like I shall sell the blackberry for £140 but with the knowledge that I can get on the net by mobile with very little cost really . I think I will last the year out here with broad band and then next year I will be up for a new handset again ...so all should be ok . Back to trying to work out how much it will cost to connect to the net using wi fi . Oh how I love technology ( I have fallen way behind with all the newgizmos !!), give me a hammer and an anvil anytime !!!!
cheers
Russ
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I think selling your Blackberry is the safe option - you're not the only one doing exactly that with upgrades lol. Bear in mind that Orange will want you to spend more money ( as you are on such a superb tariff and there's no such thing as a free upgrade!), so your internet bill for that will probably be astronomical - do get in touch with Orange before you use it! :&>
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yep cheers NFD,
It looks like I will have to call orange to find out the costs......i hate asking them things like that ...lol , they really want me off this tariff . About 3 years ago they would call me 5-10 times a day trying to get me to take another offer instead..., but slowly they just gave up. Last year they even gave me a 10% discount off my monthly bill , so it costs me £13.50 now....plus I sold the upgrade for £80.....the year before I kept the upgrade . So my mobile bill works out quite cheap really . I will update on how much it costs as soon as I have all the info ...
cheers
Russ
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Surely if you are on broadband then your blackberry connects through that at no cost? Mine does. I'm on O2 (special staff discounted rate) and my phone just picks it up and connects. It also connects through any other broadband that isn't encrypted no matter where i go.
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hello Annie,
I only got it today and looked at it after I got back from my walk to the land at 4.30. Although I have broad band here , it isn't with a wireless hub , I could have one but prefer not too. I think I can use the cable to connect but not sure if I am going to keep it yet so don't want to pull it all out and so on . Mobile signal here is very poor, one bar maybe two at best , so that may stop wifi from working ? I don't want to set too much up on the BB if I am selling it !! I will play more later and see whats what , so far I hate the Bl**dy thing ...everything is too small , I hate plain mobiles for the same reason.....still , I will see if it will do what I want when I go down the land where I have no land line !!!!!!!!!!
cheers
Russ
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Hi Russ, I always HATE my new phones. My son and son-in-law say I'm one of the most techie minded senior citizens they have ever met, but it still takes me a while to get to grips with phones. Plus I'm mean. I don't have any games on this new phone - Nokia N95 - and my grandson always asks to play bubble breaker, so I had a go at downloading a few games and found out it was going to cost MONEY!!! So he'll just have to do without! ;D
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lol... I just hate tech anything, more and more .....but mobile phones are just too small for me . As for the cost thing ...well I was born in Catterick army camp , so I am really a Yorkshireman !!! tight as a ducks a*se so they say ....I just call it being careful !!! ::)
cheers
Russ
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I'm an Aberdonian - what can I say ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Russ :o :'( we have been on here for ever!!! So many of us couldn't do without you so be sure not to fade away completely. We will happily wait for the answers to our questions since you always seem to find the info from somewhere.
I also wish you the best of everything, and please keep in touch!
Kate :pig: xx
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Hello Kate,
after looking into things a bit , it looks like I will be able to stay online one way or another . Cost will be the main sticking point really, but if all else fails I will be able to go back to the first way I got on the net and that was by mobile phone, dial up connection!! It would be painfull to go back to that now after so long on broad band , but it is there if all else fails .
Thanks for the best wishes , I will keep in touch one way or another, when I go back through the time warp that will be home...but thats not yet ..... ;D
cheers
Russ
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lol i so want a blackberry so it can help me with locating places eg gps and using the internet on the move but the cost and limited networks is always off putting
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I have a nice one for sale Linz.... ::)
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lol don't want to touch orange network !!!!
I am on virgin and i want to stick to it please lol
Linz
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you can always get it unlocked !!!! :o ;D
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lol money is alway lacking lol
I am think i'll just have to wait and save my pennies
Sorry rusty no sale lol
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lol.. no probs Linz, I have three people after it anyway mate ... just a matter of who comes up with the money first ???, and then if I decide to actually sell it !!!
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Nice to have money for gadgets lol :o ;D
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I dunno Russ , i go away for 5 mins and everyone goes mad!!! Leave the forum ??! Still i guess deep down that is the life style most are working towards (consciously or not!!)
Good luck to you if you can do it mate - but be prepared for a deluge of visitors. maybe we should call you robin hood - 4 " @120 yds - seriously impressive , i can barely hit the whole target face @ 60 - still, I'm a pretty poor archer.