The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: FiB on February 06, 2012, 09:51:56 am
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Got up yesterday to a dead sheep in our field. Not ours - I co-graze my 15 with a neighbour's 30. He is comeing to pick it up today (presumably to take it back to is farm for correct disposal). Out of interest I asked if he would be having a Post Mortem (being new, I have no idea when you would or wouldnt do one) and he said not. The sheep was apparently healthy the day before and he is a very 'medicinal' farmer so I'm confident they will have had every preventative drench/injection etc possible! What typically causes a sheep to just keel over and are my flock at risk - should I do anything (other than remain vigelant?). My Flock are in Heptovac cycle and recently had dectomax and have had worming drench (he did mine when he did his). Bit of a shock - I did expect dead animals, but not without some signs of illness...
Oh and the whole flock are all nearly yearlings. All last years ewe lambs. His are Welsh moutain/Llyn crosses, mine are Beulah and Lleyn.
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Quite a few things can cause sudden death but the most common is one of the pneumonia types, you have done all you can for prevention
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Thanks Shep, reasuring words. Ive been worrying about it all day. Spent quite a bit of time in the field today communing with them and watching them eating their hay and they really do all seem fine in their behaviour, so touch wood that this is a one off.
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I am sure over the years my sheep have found multiple reasons to keel over and die! i think sheep find it a challenge to stay alive. I would think of a post mortem if i had more than one die and if i suspected an outbreak of disease occuring.
But as they say when you have livestock you have deadstock too.
We had pms done one year when we had 4 lovely show rams lambs keel over very quickly over a period of 10 days.We suspected White muscle disease so our vet sent samples to the VLA we had every test done you could think of, cost us a packet result...... inconclusive! they couldn't pinpoint what could have caused it so i can quite understand why people don't pursue sudden deaths
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we had one just keel over and die too - its horrible because you just don't know why. It was one owned by the 'sheep club' that used our land and I can only assume she was overburdoned with worms as they all had runny bums until that point where I decided to panacur the lot of them as I was fed up with them being left to it!
from what you have said though this sheep's owner was responsible enough to make sure they were well looked after so unlikely to be the same.
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I am sure over the years my sheep have found multiple reasons to keel over and die! i think sheep find it a challenge to stay alive.
lol (sorry, I know I shouldnt).
Who would think it!! They seem such simple creatures- they eat, they sleep, some like a bit of a head stroke (thats why I love em!!). a couple of people said something similar to me before I got mine but I didnt believe them!!
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sheep really do only have one aim in life and that is to die. wheres theres livestock theres deadstock
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The Exmoor saying is, "A sheep's only got two hobbies. What it can eat and what it can die of."
The only thing I would add to the other comments is that a pregnant ewe can collapse and die quite quickly from metabolic disturbances.
If pregnant sheep are checked several times a day you will probably catch them collapsed and hopefully save them with injecting calcium. If they are checked only once a day then you may just find a dead ewe.
Our vet's 'Guide to Staggers' is reproduced here:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=12927.msg136877#msg136877 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=12927.msg136877#msg136877)
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Sheep definitely can just drop dead! I've lost an adult ewe with no apparent sign of anything wrong with it. I watch mine like hawks for signs of flystrike in the fly season which is quite prevalent here and this ewe was grazing perfectly normally one day, lying dead in the field the next. I noticed she was scouring when I went to move the body but the previous day there had been no sign of it (I am always watching for scours, not least because it attracts more flies). She was a really good mum too, had triplet lambs nearly three months old and luckily they were big enough to thrive on the good grazing.
I also lost a lamb to flystrike, I usually notice early signs of it but this little lamb hadn't shown anything until it was too late :(
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Sheep are predated animals. Preditors often take the weakest animal. It is therefore evolution that has resulted in a predated animal not showing signs of illness until the very last minute. Often once the symptoms are accute they are too late to treat. Sheep are no more inclinded to die than other livestock that are not properly cared for
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... Neighbour moved his flock off and then on Friday I was surprised by a dead sheep again (this time it was ours). Decided to get a PM as I needed to know - it not showing any symptoms that morning. Verdict was pneumonia most likely caused by pasteurella ( something like that..) - I am so cross - when I got them I was advised to heptovac but the farm shop suggested covexin 8 as it was similar but covered more diseases...... that may be true, but it DOESNT cover the common pasteurela.
Vet also said she though the gut contents seemed watery so has sent sample off for worm tests (they were wormed in November with Albex (neighbour did them with his)). My flock has also not stopped shedding following detomax (followed neighbours advice rather than calling vet initially) and the vet confirmed they were biting not sucking lice. So yesterday saw poor sheep given Spot on (for biting lice), Alamycin, for potential pneumonia, and heptovac P injections. Next week will posibly have to re worm and dag (bums not very mucky, so hoped to wait until shearing, but think Id better do it now).
Very expensive and sad weekend. Sheep are pretty tricky arent they. Funny thing is - its my Beulah that are looking worse (and the dead one was Beulah) - The Lleyn and crosses are all seeming much more robust. Anyone know anything about Beulah, whether they are suceptable to anything more than other breeds??? They are a hill breed and were born just up the road from us so thought they'd do well here. Trying to work up a calander of tasks and routine medecines. Thanks all
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Sorry to read of your bad news.
It may have been expensive, but at least you now know what the problem was and can work towards preventing a recurrence. Re the vaccine - it is very frustrating to be sold something and then find it does not do the job you wanted it to do. I have no confidence in most of the staff at any of our local farm shops, some of them are very pushy on certain brands and others don't have a clue. Read as much as you can, and trust your own judgement.
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Sorry you've lost one, FiB :bouquet:
It's always hard to pinpoint an exact cause with sheep. Are they pregnant? If so, the stress of being moved can cause them to go down with hypocalcaemia / twin lamb disease type metabolic disruptions.
If she did die of pasteurella, I'd suggest there was some other underlying problem; a healthy adult sheep in reasonable weather conditons shouldn't really be succumbing to pasteurella.
I hope you won't mind me mentioning a couple of things you may not know, for another time.
I have been told that it is unwise to use pour-ons or other externally-applied meds at the same time as giving any injections, because the jab would make a hole in the skin through which the pour-on could get into the system more rapidly and by a different route than it is meant to.
I was not sure whether you meant you had treated the whole flock with Alamycin as a precaution? Alamycin being an antibiotic, I am surprised at a vet giving you this advice unless there is clearly a very active contagious infection. And I am almost certain that antibiotics would interfere with the vaccine, so would not normally be given alongside a vaccination. It would not normally arise, as antiobiotics generally mean that the animal is sick, and one would not normally be vaccinating any animal which is suspected of being other than completely healthy because the vaccines contain mild versions of the diseases they protect against and a sick sheep might become ill as a result of the vaccination.
Please don't feel I'm being critical; on the contrary, you are clearly trying your best to give your sheep the very best of care and attention, so I thought you would want to know some things that I have picked up on my journey. :)
Did the vet talk about fluke at all? The Albex your neighbour used would have killed adult flukes and eggs, but any immature flukes that might have been present need hitting again - repeating the dose about 6 weeks later is the usual regime.
Have you been caking your girls through the winter? It sounds like you are having much the same first winter with your hoggs that we had with ours on the moorland farm; they got flukey, they got badly affected by sucking lice... We learned that on our hill ground, ewe lambs need support through their first winter, so after that we caked them - just 1/2lb per head per day - through their first winter, and we didn't have the same problems after that.
I do hope your remaining girls respond to the treatments :bouquet:
Best of luck,
Sally x
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Not only dont mind Sally - very greatful!!! Yes I was surprised that so much medication could be administered together - I did specifically ask that. I think the antibiotic was prescribed for whole flock as she probably assumed that the others were at serious risk (given the positve ID of Pasteurelosis (must try and learn spelling of that!) and it being the second death in 2/3 weeks). The spot on was just aplied to the skin on a small area of the midline at the shoulder - away from the 2 injections (antibiotic in muscle on rump, and heptovac through skin pinch at shoulder) - it was a lot to rember but I wrote it all down, so know I followed intructions OK!!
I watched the Post Mortem which was very informative (and I was surprised I was able to) and was glad to know there was no indications of liver fluke (we are in a fluky area so I will need to plan a schedule for that and can see that I should have re wormed them ) and to have a positive ID of Pneumonia. She deduced the cause (pasteurella) based on the medications thay had previously had, and also the lack of certain other indicators (for example the all other internal organs were fine)
They are just coming up to 1 year (not in lamb) and went onto pretty rich pasture when they arrived in Sept, but that was pretty well gone by Novemebr when I started giving hay. Have just started them on cake and think I have very likely not beein giving enough, so will start cake earlier next year. Thanks for all advice - I'm starting to build up a picture of diseases and prevetions/treatments. Does flip your view though - I was half expecting another dead one today. Thanks goodness not, but I do feel the need to go and look at them hourly!! Off to look now!
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Sorry for the loss. Few points you will need to give a second heptavac p + in the next 4-6 wks then annually . I would never use a wormer only a flukicide in autumn/winter as immature flukes are the problem and wormers don't kill them also they say not to use on pregnant sheep at the increased fluke dose . In most cases of wool loss over the winter assume lice and treat with a pour on, DECTOMAX is for scab and worms. My ewe lambs start on 300gms of concs in nov until the grass comes in april, We all learn by experiance :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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If pasteurella was the cause, just make sure you vaccinate everything with Heptava - P plus (including your lambs as soon as they are old enough and then the chances of loosing sheep to this in the future are slim.
We used to loose a few lambs to uncertain causes, but since we started vaccinating ALL the lambs instead of just the ones kept for breeding, the losses diappeared. It can make a big difference to general flock health.
Having said that, you will occasionally get one succumb even though it is vaccinated - we purchased a very expensive tup a few years back and lost him to pastuerella a few months later despite having given him a full course
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a healthy adult sheep in reasonable weather conditons shouldn't really be succumbing to pasteurella.
Sorry, got to disagree with that bit, I got a very healthy Ryeland ram, moved him with ewes he knew to my fields and he went down with pasteurella, saved him ok, vet said it was stress. Same thing happened when I got two more ewes, one went down with it after being moved.
Sheep like to die and make liars of us it seems.
PS he'd been Heptavac'd by lady I bought him off don't know if it was Heptavac P though
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Its a real roller-coaster owning these bleedin sheep in't it!?
I would tell you not to worry - but worry we all do and its the worry that makes us keep on the ball and looking after the rest of em. The death of an animal is very hard to deal with - I dont think it ever gets any easier, I always shed a spark of a tear whenever something dies in my arms or I find it stiff in a field, legs out. You always blame yourself, well I do.
One of the problems with caring for animals is that there is so much conflicting advice, even from professionals, but thats the same in any industry you look at.
My guess is that most people find out whats 'right' for theirs through experience, experience also gives you a better standpoint to judge other peoples opinions and experience.
You sound like your doing a fab job looking after them, sorry to hear you lost one too and I hope they all get better and have a good old life munching the goodies you give them.
Baz
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The clostridial vaccines and the pasteurella vaccines are dead organisms plus modified toxins so will not be affected by antibiotics.
This would be the case for the vast majority of vaccines, which are usually dead organisms, modified ones that can't multiply or toxins. Just occasionally a live organism is used - Scabivax against orf for example but that's a virus so also wouldn't be affected by antibiotics. Can't think of a live, bacterial vaccine offhand but no doubt there is one somewhere - that could be affected by antibiotics.
The reasons for not vaccinating an ill animal are 1. You want its immune system to get it better not be distracted by responding to extra microbes and 2. The response to the vaccine is likely to be poor and therefore a waste of time.
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All of which just goes to show that none of us get it all right all of the time! :-[ We can all only do our best with what we know and can find out at the time. Thank goodness for this community on TAS, where we can pool our knowledge and experience.
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Thanks as ever for all the moral and practical support
JayKay, that makes absolute sense - Sooo - if you were faced with my situation again, would you asume they were all incubating pasteurella and give antibiotic (holding off the heptvac for a week or so), Or administer the vaccine and hold of the antibiotic untill further signs of illness presented? My biggest surprise was that I didnt/couldnt detect any signs of illness in the 24 hours before. When I got them in to treat (no dog, only the lure of feeding them in my makeshift pen in the 'pollytunnel' - so relieved THAT worked!) a couple were very skiny - but I would not have guessed that from visual inspection. How often do people get the sheep in to have a feel - I dont want to handle too much, but now think I have been too hands off. I also need to get my head around the 'condition score' that I have seen people talk about but cant see to find info on how to do... Loving the learning!
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If you have only got a small flock that are being called-in to feed rather than the dog they will let you quickly put your hand on their backs while the head is in the feed trough after a while, just do it regulalrly.... mine do and I am surprised at the ones that are on good condition and the ones that seem to be a bit skinny - it is not the usual suspects this year....
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I do what Anke does, get my hands on their backs while they're feeding. I usually only manage one or two before they start skipping about, so I target different ones each time.
Sally, none of us get it right all the time , that's what's great about this forum, we're always learning from each other :-*
FiB, generally I take the advice of my vet, especially for animals that they know plenty about like sheep. I'd have gone with the antibiotics too, since you've already lost one with confirmed pasteurella. And Heptavac P asap after you're sure none are ill.
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There are a number of guides to condition scoring on the net. One is at http://www.smallstock.info/tools/condscor/cs-sheep.htm (http://www.smallstock.info/tools/condscor/cs-sheep.htm) .
It is to some extent subjective and the condition you are looking for does vary somewhat from breed to breed. I think the breeder of my Shetlands would not be happy if I aimed for a 3 from this site at this point on my ewes who are due to lamb in April.
And if it is some consolation I was very down after a bad start to lambing this year but today I laughed until I cried at the sight of one of twin Jacob lambs born on Saturday climbing all over her mother and jumping up and down on her back. The little monsters escaped from their pen twice yesterday and on the second occasion were found treating the walkway between the pens as a racetrack much to the horror of the Shropshire mums with their peacefully sleeping offspring. I think those two are about ready for the nursery paddock today if the rain holds off!
Life with sheep is a real rollercoaster, especially at this time of the year but the special moments are very special.
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Fronhaul, talk to me about what condition you k want Shetlands to be in at this point in the year. This is my first year with Shetlands - I knew what I was doing with Rough Fells but these little guys are very different :)
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Hi JayKay - my first year as well with the little sheep but I have some very very specific instructions from the breeder of mine who is absolutely adamant that she doesn't want to see much in the way of condition on her ewes before they lamb. Lots of verbal advice and I am sure she won't mind me copying this part of an email she sent me to underline the point she made:
Your Shetlands will give you even smaller lambs. We used to make the mistake of feeding too much in the way of concentrates, which made our lambs too large, they are supposed to be tiny, which of course also helps the ewe, I think that we have it about right now. Though we do probably feed too good hay, which we pride ourselves on being able to make, we don’t feed any hard food until about four weeks before the first ones are due to lamb. We used to do this for six weeks before & for six weeks after & I think that they are better for having reduced it by two weeks at either end. I think that if they have all of the vitamins & minerals required in the blocks & buckets & ad lib hay, this regime seems to work. When we do begin to feed nuts & coarse mix it is not a lot, really only a titbit to begin with & not increasing it a great deal. I hope that you don’t mind me saying this & you are probably well aware already of all of the above. I just thought that you may think that they need more than they do, as they can be very greedy
This is in Wiltshire and it is fair to say that there is far more "bottom" to their grass than ours so we are feeding a little more than this but being pretty cautious to keep hard feed to a minimum. From what she explained to me I would say to my eye I would be looking for around a 2.5 condition score. Some people may well disagree though.
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Ok, that's interesting, thank you :) I'm at 1000ft in Cumbria, so there's been no grass since mid-Oct. I'm feeding good hay and have been feeding cake since then too, though only a small handful each til Jan (to 'train' them) but now they're on a cupful each. I'd say they were mainly a 3, so maybe they're a bit fat but not too bad.