The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: harry on January 16, 2012, 05:46:37 pm
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by emailing small local breweries ive managed to scounge there spent brewers grain not sure how much ime getting on a 2 week basis but asking anyone who knows how much is too much to feed this grain... i currentnly have KUNE KUNES 6-7 MONTHS OLD will still feed them there daily ration of sow rolls,,and there free range on poor winter grass at the moment... bit of luck there as someone who used to take it recently moved away, worth a few emails..... the large breweries sell it by the lorry load to feed merchants, also asked for any waste beer for them...... wonder if they drink this i will get any ground clearence done , trying to make sense of this, if anyone can please inform me what all this means,,, http://www.fao.org/ag/aGa/agap/FRG/afris/Data/468.HTM (http://www.fao.org/ag/aGa/agap/FRG/afris/Data/468.HTM) ALSO FOUND THIS http://www.thepigsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11273 (http://www.thepigsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11273)
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Somebody more experienced than me will be along soon (I've never been lucky enough to get my hands on brewery waste products.....yet ;))
But basically what that's telling you is the protien levels and digestibility of the mash, how to store it ,for how long and what to do to improve it if you're storing it long-term.
There seem to be 2 main forms wet or dry. If it's the wet stuff it's going to go off after a few days (in summer) but should store for 2 weeks plus in the winter by the sounds of things, so small regular amounts will be key when you're collecting it in milder weather Harry :thumbsup: Also, it goes without saying if any of it does go mouldy that you shouldn't feed it to them.
If you're going to feed it to Kunes then I'd either stop or reduce their pig nuts significantly (but do it gradually til you get them used to the mash) Kunes get overfat on grains really quickly, but just keep an eye on their condition. Also check their poo (I know ::) not the best job) but on the couple of occaisions I have fed grain to my Kunes it's come straight through undigested, so I would imagine that if that were the case they'd not be getting much goodness from it - but it's only a thought, as I said I've not fed mash myself so don't know for sure.
So far as I can tell (only had a quick look) they're talking about a crude protien level of around 30%, that's a bit higher than even grower or finisher meal, so definately need to reduce the nuts (or you'll have pigs as wide as they are tall :D)
HTH
Karen :wave:
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thats about what i made of it....... better get a shed load of fattener poultry as well to clear it up
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Any excuse eh ?! ;) ;D ;D ;D
But keep us (or maybe I'm the only nosey one ::) ;D) updated with how they go - if it's great I'll maybe take some chops as a bargaining tool and go back to my local brewery ;) :thumbsup:
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We have a brewery a couple of miles away, I'll get in touch with them. I think all these feeding statistics are aimed at commercial producers. They should have a little bit at the bottom saying, if you only have a few pigs take a couple of buckets with you :D
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As presumably your growing pigs, then protein usability is key. Crude Protein deos not tell you how much food the pigs can convert to muscle.
The key here is that protein is broken down into amino acids in the pigs digestive system, and these form the building blocks for different proteins that the pig then uses to build muscle. However the amino acids need to be in the right ratio for the pig. So for instance if each protein in the food contains 1 A, 2 B and 3 C amino acids, and the pig builds muscle by combining 2 A, 1 B and 3 C to make one protein, then if you take 10 proteins you'll have
A 10
B 20
C 30
From this you can build only 5 protiens, as you need 2A's for each and you only have 10 A's to play with. For these 5 proteins you'll need 5B's using 5 B's, leaving 15 as waste. For C's, again you have 5 proteins, each needing 3C's, so use 15 C's, leaving 15 as waste.
So in effect from 10 original proteins you can only make 5.
If you do the above with Soya and Lysine as the animo acid, you can understand why pig food has lysine added to it.
For your brewers grain, lysine again is lacking, as a rough guide 5-20kg pigs need the "perfect" column, ie you would feed protein with the same levels of each of the AA (Amino Acids) as the pigs need. From the article you quote I have completed the next 3 columns. "Brewers" is what the article says it contains (bottom of article), "needed" is what can be used from that and "waste" is what cannot be used.
AA Perfect Brewers Needed Waste
Lysine 100 3.3 3.3 0.0
Isoleucine 60 5.4 3.2 2.2
Leucine 100 8.3 3.3 5.0
Methionine 30 1.2 1.0 0.2
Phenylalanine95 4.7 3.1 1.6
Threonine 65 3.2 2.1 1.1
Tryptophan 18 1.3 0.6 0.7
Valine 68 5.4 2.2 3.2
Histidine 32 1.8 1.1 0.7
So out of every 34 units, 20 will be used and 14 will be waste. You'll see that if you added more lysine, you could achieve a higher conversion rate, and have less waste.
Of course that only deals with protein, and you'll also need to consider vitamins and minerals as well a lipids and carbohydrates
As the pigsite suggests, you'll need to use this as only a portion of the feed, and the advice that higher than 35% would have a detrimental effect is interesting.
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The 'Newcastle document' has protein at 5.5% (of which lysine 0.19), and says feed growing pigs max 10%, finishing pigs, dry sows and boars max 20%. It doesn't recommend it for lactating sows or suckling piglets or weaners. (When does a weaner become a grower? And a grower become a finisher?)
No, Karen, you are not the only nosey one, I would love to know all about how you get on, harry!
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ime beggining to wonder if its worth it..... i thought i would get a trailer load of grain and give them a few shovell fulls per day along with horse carrots etc and free range then eat them. :-\ :-\
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ime beggining to wonder if its worth it.....
It probably would be if you were buying huge amounts of feed Harry, but for all that 4 Kunes will eat, it is probably much less of a headache to stick with pig nuts ;)
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i think you correct, as if not eaten it will start to go mouldy etc
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i am surprised that no other posters get brewers mash
what size of brewery is it that you are collecting from as small ones only brew what they can sell (bear/lager) we get mash either 2 or 3 bags at a time this is the bags that the barley comes in
if it is left in the bags it goes sour quite quick you have to decant it into trugs or something else
GRAIN wheat barley oats all have to be processed either milled rolled or bruised if the grain is feed without either being done you are as well throwing your money away if feed unprocessed they just s**t it out undigested (the same as humans with sweet corn) we were feeding to the pigs but are now feeding it to the sheep and they love it the brewery has to dispose of it some how and you have to collect it
large brewery's or distillery's are unlikely to even give you the time of day never mind there mash (feed merchants collect and deliver either to farms or for processing in feed mills
kunes if feed grain only will layer the fat on :farmer:
PS the husks in the mash may look like it is not digested properly
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dont know how much i can get till monday having a look.... the large breweries have a contract feed merchant collect it, this is a small brewery that has it once every 2 weeks, may try chucking it though my garden mulcher, maybe block the outlet up a bit so it gets smashed....... may be able to get the waste beer only...that may be better, do you think.
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what are you wanting to put it through the mulcher for
dont think you will get waste beer :farmer:
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thought the mulcher would break the grain up making it more digestable
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if it is mash from the brew it is wet and already broken up
if it is dried grain a mulcher wont do it it has to be a roller mill/plate mill or bruizer :farmer:
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so would wet mash would be more digestable without any further processing :-\
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yes just feed it but you have to get it fresh it is also very warm when fresh hence it goes mouldy if kept in the bags :farmer:
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is this sort of mould dangerous to pigs.... ie pig feed mould is dangerous.... mould onfruit/ veg etc is ok
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mash has a very nice smell when fresh
before it gets to the mouldy stage it goes sour you can smell the difference
does mouldy windfall give pigs an upset stomach
:farmer:
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dont know thats why ime asking....... too many fresh apples give them an upset stomache..... but is that the worst mould in this trype of grain will :-\............. mentioned it to someone today and they said if i cover it in black plastic it will last 6 months plus :-\
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the mould in grain is a different more toxic mould
farmers put the mash in silage pits as well as potatoes it has to be sealed to stop air getting into it then vermin come to it :farmer:
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i have arranged to get some spent grain from a small brewery...lucky for me its about 6-10 X 20 klo sacks per 2 weeks so not to much to go sour ...i believe protien value is about 30% so any advice on amount to feed a 7 month growing kune kune (i have 7 of these) they currently have about 1.5 to 2 lb of sow rolls daily as a winter ration...also looking for some meat day old chicks to clear it up.
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are you sure the protein is 30% that is very high for a spent product
the highest concentrate is 22% if your 6-10 bags are like the bags we get you will not be able to use it all feeding kunies at 7 months feeding a high protein feed they will layer the fat on :farmer:
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think i got it wrong its 30% of feed ration recomended... had a look here http://www.fao.org/ag/aGa/agap/FRG/afris/Data/468.HTM (http://www.fao.org/ag/aGa/agap/FRG/afris/Data/468.HTM) better get a shed load of growing poulrty for meat then untill ime ready for new piglets,,,,,,, is there a prefered breed for feeding this grain,,,,, dont want huge pigs maybe a medium breeed. ALSO FOUND THIS ON GOOGLE
I can only give you my experience - and I know other people on the forum have come up with different views.
I have a micro-brewery and our spent grain has been going for some time past to a local small-holder as pig feed - I don't know what proportion of their diet the spent grain constitutes, but he's had no problems.
We have kept pigs ourselves outside the brewery and have fed them almost exclusively on spent grain mixed with bits of waste beer and wort (unfermented beer). The 2 we have just sent to slaughter only had 4 bags of pig nuts between them over the 5 months we had them - the rest of their diet was grain beer and wort, plus what they got from clearing a half-acre enclosure. And they were happy, healthy and taste delicious.
Ours have been used to the diet from a young age - I don't know how they would react to a sudden change. Also we nearly always feed them the grain as a sloppy mix with beer or wort mixed in and a handful of nuts. I know other contributors have said when this question has been raised before that you should limit the %age of grain fed to a rate much lower than what we feed to ours - but as I say, I can only give you my experience.
#2 by Pel 25th February 2009 at 14:44
I've got nothing against feeding any free feedstuffs, and also know of a brewer round by me who feeds his pigs all the left over stuff (good ale too), they do get nuts as well, and his pigs seem to do well off them. However one reason i give a limited % on these matters is that they (pigs) cant digest the grains as good as ruminants, so excrete a lot of the goodness (so if you had sheep etc be better to give it to them), also if we on here were to say go ahead and feed over 50% of the grains to them and they did, and the pigs died because of it who'd get the blame?
By only feeding 10% to begin with the owner can see whether or not the pigs like it and whether or not they get an ill effect from it, if they don't then you can increase if you so wish to..
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if you continue to get the mash a change will need to happen get rid of the kunnies and get hampshire piglets or have sheep as the quoted report states
hampshires wont layer the fat on as other breeds pigs can digest the mash as it is broken up by the process of brewing (it is only whole grains they cannot digest the husks are the only thing they will not digest)
we feed the mash to the sheep and boy are the lambs growing once the piglets are weaned we will feed them with some :farmer:
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when we were tenant farmers, before we bought where we are now, were were on an estate not far from hook norton brewery and could get as much brewers grains as we wanted.
When fresh it smells malty and sweet, it goes off quickly in summer but will keep a week of so easily you can tell when it goes rancid, it stinks, we used to feed two plastic dustbins a week per pig with some nuts and some fodder beet. now were too far away 70 miles, but have made some inroads into getting some from the brewery at cleobury mortimer
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ok...will be ready for new piglets this spring... so i will see about hampshires, anyone else got any breed suggsetions for feeding grain as a large part of their ration, they will also free range............. 2 bin fulls a week is a lot more than i would have thought ,,,,were they a huge breed............................................. googled hampshires dont think i like the sound of them for a small smallholding ie a bit big, a bit aggressive (small children about) and big diggers, still sounds like a med breed and a 100 chickens is tha way to go
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no not massive, 6 oxford sandies, would expect that they got a bucket each? maybe more, they did once escape and eat thelot in one sitting, got a bit drunk and slept for a couple of days... funny really though i was worried at the time :o
biggest thing is not letting it go rancid as then it will make them bad and get the runs or beer belly!
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there is only one thing for you to do pick a breed of pig feed them the mash and wait and see first how big they grow and second how long it takes them to get there and third how fat they are when killed
mash is only grain that is a byproduct of brewing so feed in large quantity's they will layer the fat on
Hampshire's are the least likely to go to fat in the same depth as every other breed you could also try Duroc or pietrain all other breeds will layer the fat on
what breed to get for temperament every breed can escape every breed can be aggressive it is how you manage them if it is docile pigs you want get lops i have a friend that has welsh pigs they are meant to be aggressive but his are as docile as the lops
in the end it is your call all we can do is point you in one direction :farmer:
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ime off to the poultry pages to ask the same
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ime about to get my first batch in poly feed bags..... how is the best way to store this over 2 weeks