The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: goosepimple on January 04, 2012, 01:08:52 pm
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Help please, our bc is a neutered 14mth lovely bitch - we got her just before last Christmas, so had her just over a year. She has never really tolerated the kids that well (they are 10 and 8 and are quite quiet types) and we have assumed that perhaps she saw herself being above them. We have been doing a series of psychological exercises (via info from a dog training dvd), such as my OH greeting everyone in the house before her, kids giving her breakfast etc but she is still very snappy. We don't go near her now if she's sleepy as she isn't happy about being woken. She even gave my OH (who deals with her most) a nip on Christmas day. We're not soft with her, she gets loads of quality play time and runs around with us outside all day. I'm a bit worried she nips one of the kids or their friends which would unfortunately mean her demise. The kids love her to bits or I would pass her on and generally she is lovely natured. Any ideas? Thanks for reading.
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Watching this with interest as we have an 11 year old bc who has always been nippy and aggressive. We've never managed to sort it but haven't given up hope :)
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So sorry to hear of your problems with this collie, goosepimple. :bouquet:
I had a rescue BC-cross who nipped some people some of the time. I sought advice.
Here is the advice and what happened.
I asked John Cree, he of Police Dog / Working Trial training fame, and he was incredibly generous with his time and thought. From asking a lot of questions, John established that it was nervous aggression and not a generally nasty dog. (From your description I can't determine which it is in your girl's case; ours never ever looked even close to nipping us.)
John gave us suggestions for making a safe haven for the dog to which it could always retreat and basically hide, and could be certain that no-one would ever come to it there or make it feel nervous there. I've talked about this before on another thread here.
He also advised that we should not be with the dog the whole time, so that he was a bit more self-reliant and less dependent on us and our presence.
It all did make a big difference, and the dog stayed.
Prior to this, an experienced dog handler in our village had given us the benefit of her experience, saying that she had had a similar situation years earlier, had done everything she could, but in the end the dog still nipped and she had had to have it put down. She'd tried for so long that it really broke her up having to give up on it. She was hoping that by telling us her story she would save us some of the same pain.
Sadly, over time, the dog did begin to leave his safe areas and sneak up behind people who were not in any way threatening him - or even on his territory - and nip. So we did have to have him put down. At that time, that was the hardest decision I had ever had to make. A vet friend of mine had told me years earlier that collies congenitally nipped, they were bred that way to nip the sheep on the backs of the legs to chivvy them along - and that the most common serious wounding caused by nipping collies was not, as you might imagine, missing noses or scarred faces - but damage to the penis and testicles of little boys, up to and including castration. Remembering that strengthened me for the one-way trip to the vet - no way could I face that kind of harm being caused by a dog of mine.
These days, nippy collies are a lot more rare, most breeders of pet or working stock will not breed from a collie that shows any aggression towards a human and the traits have been, if not eradicated then at least massively reduced.
Having been there myself, I think it is a very personal decision so I would not presume to tell anyone else what they must or must not do. But for myself, I certainly would not take any risks with a nippy collie near children; if I had to have the dog then it would be in a secure pen when there were children about.
Subsequent to the above story, having a different problem with a later rescue dog, I bought John Cree's 'Your Problem Dog' book, which was full of insight and great practical suggestions - and in this case, I am pleased to report we had complete success and the dog died peacefully of old age at home five years ago.
Whatever you decide, goosepimple, I wish you the very best of luck - and if a private conversation would be of any help, drop me a PM.
Best,
Sally x
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Hi Goosepimple, i have a nippy collie too. she is fine with me my hubby and my stepdaughter but nips my two stepsons and any strangers who come in. She shows no outward aggression at first, in fact will wag her tail but when they pet her she nips as they go to remove their hand. Sometimes she will just take a dislike to someone and she gets a glazed look in her eyes and i know she will bite.
She was misteated and we have learned to "manage her " by shutting her back when the guests are about she lives out with another dog and is from working stock.
She is very bonded to me and will jump through hoops for me just to please.
I think it is a case of management with dogs like these she is now 4 1/2 years old and i can't see her ever changing, we have a grandchild on the way so she will be shut back when baby visits but she has a good outdoor life and is treated well so i don't feel she is missing out.
I think some collies are just not family dogs and very much need their own space.
Good luck with what you decide to do
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Thank you everyone, that's all great to hear - when you encounter this sort of thing you tend to think it's your fault and quiz yourself constantly on what you've done wrong, so it's good to hear all your stories.
OH has just taken her to the vet this evening for her booster shots and mentioned it to him - he confirmed that BCs are quite often like this and that we should continue to tell her off and then ignore her completely so she gets the message and that we shouldn't make too much of it at present, she is still very young. Otherwise he thought she was fantastic and would get better with age so long as we are firm, it's just her instinct. That's possibly a moot point considering all your experiences.
She is from local working stock and I think I'll go back to the shepherd (they have many dogs) and mention it to him to see if he can suggest anything. She was to be working here but our daft rare breeds are potential olympic high jump gold medalists so her talents are not used as they should be. Keep you all posted, it's obviously quite a widespread problem. Now including an outside kennel in our ongoing building plans.
Many thanks all on this constantly great website.
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hi
sorry to hear about your dog we have been dog breaders for many years theres not alot you can do the dog has not learnt as a puppy that this hurts they uselly get this lesson from there brothers and sisters when pups you need to be very confident and make sure the dog understands the pack order in your house you have to be a bit cruel to be kind dont forget somepeople dont like and understand dogs and if the dog hurts a child you can find yourself in all kinds of bother
best of luck
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I disagree, there is PLENTY you can do IF you ensure the safety of the kids whilst doing so.
Get a crate, teach her it is a wonderful safe place that nothing nasty ever happens in. let her know it belongs to her and she will be safe whilst there. kids are absolutely not under any circumstances allowed to interact with her whilst in there. she can take herself there when she feels things are getting to much to control, rather than attempt to do the controlling
Ensure the kids have a place to play where the dogs is absolutely not allowed to go. EVER.
Do not leave them together unsupervised.
Next, at least an hours walk, every day. not hanging around the yard, but controlled human dog interaction. a game of fetch or an on lead walk, whatever you choose. do not let the kids do this.
half an hour of training for tricks will also help, shake a paw, play dead, roll over anything. make her use her brain, this will tire her far more than any amount of exercise.
What do you feed? check it's not working dog food. she may be a working breed, but unless she is working the sheep on the hills she does not need the protein and carb levels in working dog food. she needs to be calm enough to think things through, and like a kid whacked out on sugar, isnt going to be able to do so if she's buzzing from the wrong food.
as for not wanting to approach her when sleeping, simply don't! let sleeping dogs lie as they say! if you need her to be somewhere else, call her. if you use the crate as i suggest (you dont need to shut the door on it by the way) then this negates the whole issue as she knows she'll never be disturbed there.
get a copy of barbara syke's 'understanding the border collie'. the book is amazing, and a real help.
best of luck, i'm sure you'll do fine.
oh just a quick add on, i know the kids probably want to be best friends with her, but she may never want that and the young uns will have to accept it. if a collie has decided not to be a rough and tumble dog, there is nothing you can do about that. pilot my dog will play all day with kids as rough as they like. red dog would have a fit.... she goes and lies in her crate. unless they want to play fetch. she can do that with kids AAAALLLLLLLLLLL day ;D
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I have kept working terriers for many years. terriers can be a bit nippy sometimes. I thing the lack of socialising as a pup may have a lot to do with nippy dogs. Any pup I ever bred was well socialised and more or less bomb proof, My kids used to dress them up in dolls cloths etc. I would never tolerate a dog if it was any kind of danger to my kids, you can watch them all the time.. In fact I was nipped today by a customers terrier and she constantly had to take it away from me. very disconcerning and a wonderful way to be greeted into someones home .As someone who has been bitten on several occasions by (OH HE IS ONLY PLAYING) dogs, I find this extremely antisocial, put it this way if you son punched anyone who enterred your house what would you think.
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hi
just an add on to post we sent before didn't mean to sound so down about the dog nipping we just found with all animals we have bread and vets we have worked with while breading dogs for the forces etc seem to think that animals like us learn there behaviour from there parents but just as strong from there siblings as we know if a bother or sister hit us back it hurt and we didn't do it again [well thats the plan lol] so the dog does not understand the pain she is giving out , one of the main points i was trying to make was people with out dogs can see things totally different to people with we bread staffs and had a lot of prudish from people
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I had a collie for 15 years - my first dog she was with our family from me being 14 - 29. In hindsight she was probably a result of a puppy farm. She had nervous aggression problems and would nip / bite. We sought advice from a dog behaviorist and we implemented positive dog training techniques such as clicker training. Previously we had been advised to "dominate" her which only exacerbated the situation. She became a lot better once we had used the postive dog training but she was never trusted with children or vistors - it was a case of management. If your dog does any aggressive tendancies it is important to deal with it as soon as you can and really would advise you see a reputable qualified dog trainer who can see her in your home. By qulaified I dont mean lots of letters after their name more by being a member of a organisation such as association of pet dog trainers or association of pet behavioural counsellors as anyone can set up as a dog trainer and some may do more harm than good.
The book colliewoman recommends is good.
Good luck - collies are great dogs - I still miss my Tam
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I agree totally with Colliewoman on the feeding .When we first had our collies we were advised to use a working dog food. Both dogs were stir crazy with this food we just didn't work them enough to have a need for it, so we dropped back to a maintenance diet and they are a lot more manageable on this, not jumping out their skins!!
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Yes, I agree about the feed too; I should have thought to mention that.
Working collies can do so much on so little that a pet collie should really be fed nothing more than polystyrene and cardboard.
Or, if you want to buy it with a label on it, plain terrier biscuits and Chappie Original! (With apologies to Chappie, which is a fine dog food and which I use to bulk up what I feed my working collies as well as as the staple ingredient for any non-working collie types.)
In my view, all the complete foods are far too high in protein for any but a very actively working dog - and I mean hours every day, not just running about having fun but actual work.
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Get hold of Barbara Sykes book 'Understanding Border Collies'. She talks about the feeding issue too and is basically amazingly wise about them. I'm sure she will be able to suggest things that help - my copy is at home and I'm at work or I'd check. And before you make any serious decisions maybe actually contact Barbara Sykes and see if she can help.
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I agree on food as well - and that goes for ALL breeds. I have a 2 year old Brittany who is wild! He used to be much worse when he was on a high protein kibble. I took him down to 20% and add plain biscuit to it which I believe is 11% and he is still a bit wild but much more manageable.
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Hi Goosepimple - you have had some fantastic replies here - some very knowledgeable dog people, and I entirely agree with Colliewomans post (and some others). I haven't seen this much common sense on dog forums ::) ::)
This dog needs a safe place of its own, to spend calm time on its own and a sensible diet. No need to add more because it has all been said very sensibly in above posts ;) If things don't improve, Barbara Sykes is the one who really understands border collies and does behavioural consultations. (Mainline Border Collies)
Good luck and let us know how it goes?
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Farther to my post yesterday. I was back today at the same job and this time the dog bit me on the thigh very sore and I was quite angry , my gut reaction was to kick the s**t out of the dog but I didnt. What would you do in this situation. I know if this was my dog it would
never been able to bit again leathal injection at the vets. >:(
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Well, I'd be furious with the owner for allowing you to be bitten again! But yeh, don't kick it, it's really the owner's fault not it's. A dog that's guarding is fair enough - but the owner should be making sure it can't harm anyone. Some of the dogs at my neighbour's farm would bite 'intruders' - so they're on chains!
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This is an attitude that is beyond me What pleasure is there in keeping a dog like that, in my opinion its like having a ticking bomb. OK so its not the dogs fault but it was the dog that bit me OK is damaged some how but it was the dog that bit me. OK the woman cant handle the dog, The dog is dangerous no ifs or buts. In my opinion any dog that shows unwanted aggression towards a human is a danger.
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Well yes, I wouldn't want my dogs to be so aggressive.
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unfortunately denial and apathy of problem dog owners is the biggest problem of all.
If it were me i would refuse to leave my vehicle until the dog had been penned up. keep doing that and she will eventually get the message that something must be done with regards to her problem dog.
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Ouch that sounds painful and a bit scarey :o
I think you are within your rights to prosecute if a dog owner is not in control of a dog, it doesn't have to bite just give the impression it may attack. Not saying you should prosecute, but I would certainly talk to the dog owner about her responsibility to safeguard visitors to their property. You can't even let your dog bite a burglar these days!
Around here Postmen seem to be advised not to enter a property if there is a loose dog. I had a note a couple of months ago from our postie - "couldn't deliver yesterday because dog on the loose". The only dog we have loose at anytime unsupervised is the 16 year old working sheep dog who is very arthritic and slow, deaf, almost blind, and not a threat to anyone ;D ;D
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Thanks again all, OH and myself have just been reading your replies. Will get on to Amazon and order a copy of B Sykes' book after writing this. Will look at the diet thing - we have been giving complete foods but were thinking of changing to Iams, but will look at Chappie too. She is given loads of exercise and 2 x 45min approx walks on top of her running around the place (we have 5 acres of doggy fun). She does tend to retreat upstairs under the bed at evenings and did snap OH when he tried to get her out of there once. Our kids are pretty quiet compared to most and don't smother her but she does see them as under her at the moment, but we'll work on that. She has her cage too which is bedtime only, it's in the main room at the moment so perhaps we should change that to a quieter space. Thank you, thank you all, this is good stuff and hopefully things will improve - you have to learn to live with your kids and when a new one comes along everyone has to adjust, to redress the balance, we're just working through that phase I hope. Many thanks and will post on this again.
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Our kids are pretty quiet compared to most and don't smother her but she does see them as under her at the moment, but we'll work on that.
You could try getting the kids to be the ones that feed her. Especially if they make her sit until they say, "Go,", - and then let her eat in peace, of course!
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Doing that now, all these things will become habit in time but it is all new to us at the moment! thanks Sally
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I've been very lucky with my dogs, never any worries abot biting at all. That said they have thier own space and the only time that is invaded is when there is a problem of some sort or to give them a wee pat on the way past.
Control of feed can be a good way of ensuring that the dog knows that it is at the bottom of the pile. One possabilty is instead of the kids feeding the dog they take the food away from the dog, an action that you must let the dg see that you will enforce so that the dog knows that they are above it in the pecking order.
Lastly, bite the dog back! Next time it nips grab the scruff (and the muzzle!) lift it clean off the ground and chop on an ear! Make sure it hurts the dog good and proper. If it's yelping then your about halfway hard enough! Sound very cruel but I'd rather be cruel for 30 seconds than use a number 6 down the left barrel! The dog will wriggle like mad so have a damned good grip. I've only heard of people doing it but I know a number of game keepers and shepherds that swear by this method (works on horses too!). Once bitten thrown the dog down and send it back to it's bed/safe place to lick it's wounds!
One word of caution, try to keep the dog away from the more organic elements of the farm before you bite it!
All the best
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We have been grabbing her by the nose/mouth and forcing her head to the ground and saying NO very firmly, but if it's outside it is difficult to then return her to a naughty spot, but she has got the message and would stop. I would tend not to thump her although I must admit we have done it a couple of times, I felt very uneasy about that and if there is another route I would prefer to take it. For the record, she's not hugely nippy, just a bit of a spoilt toddler I think and not happy when she doesn't get her own way, but as with kids this could escalate. Think we did a good job of breaking the kids ;D ;Dso hoping we will get around this one too!
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I have always bitten young puppies ears when they have 'played' too hard, having watched their mums do it. Not dreadfully hard, just enough to cause a startled yelp. It's always worked to solve that particular issue. But I think that's more about teaching puppies what level of mouth pressure is funny and what isn't.
I don't know how much it'd work on this particular issue.
My ex, who is a police dog trainer always says that any aversion training should be done extremely hard the first time and you may never need to do it again, certainly not much. He says most people's way of try gently, try a bit harder and so on just desensitises a dog to the punishment/aversion. And you make an almighty loud noise and fuss too.
So one way to go, immediately a dog does something wrong (timing is all) is to throw a choke chain (It hurts when it hits but not terribly so but makes a clatter too) and go bananas - waving your arms around, chasing the dog, shouting loudly but with the lowest voice you can manage - you should look like Basil Fawlty ;) A border collie will be pretty traumatised by it all - but it will remember. It completely stopped my dog collie even looking at sheep, in the days he was a fell-walking pet - he was totally trustworthy.
Now of course, he's a proper sheep dog and they're fair game :D
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i cured a nippy dog in about ten seconds, it was a lurcher youngster who got carried away playing and bit, so immediatley i forcibly stuck two fingers down its gullet and made it gip, it happened twice and she never bit again.
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Well, I haven't read the Barbara Sykes book that so many of you clearly think very highly of (I've ordered a copy, just haven't got it yet.) And I'm certainly not going to argue with jaykay :wave: or her ex about dog handling techniques.
However... I have in my time trained a number of dogs of various types using some of the "I'm boss and I'm going to make sure you know it" techniques listed here. Personally, I would use these techniques with caution with a nervous young border collie bitch; I'd be concerned I could unwittingly create a nervous aggression problem. I would certainly not advise a novice dog handler to try these techniques on such a dog unless advised to do so by an experienced handler with proven track record with this kind of dog in this sort of situation and who has witnessed the dog exhibiting the unwanted behaviours.
The throwing a chain - or bunch of keys, anything that'll clatter - is a good distractor. Derek Scrimgeour's technique is to never threaten the dog directly, only ever to threaten the ground / place it was about to be, ie., between where it is now and where you don't want it to be. He accompanies that with a gruff noise, after a few repeats he only needs to make that gruff noise for the dog to know it is thinking about doing the wrong thing! :D
Do you have a good dog club near you, goosepimple? Years ago I was lucky enough to live in striking distance of Cricklade, where a group of qualified and very talented and experienced obedience trainers held weekly classes for all levels, starting with puppy socialisation and going on up to competitive obedience if you wanted to go that far. They were brilliant at summing up the dog and handler(s), demonstrating the techniques - and the instantly amended behaviours in the dog - and then helping the handler to achieve the same result. If you had such a class nearby, it would be worth a few visits. But do check it out first before taking the dog - sadly not all classes are blessed with such excellent trainers as the Cricklade one.
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just a thought - we were given an old English sheepdog (about 4yr old), the first time she chased the geese she was told off with 'bad dog' the second time I was so cross (she still had feathers in her mouth when I caught up with her, goose was unharmed) I literally grabbed her by the scruff, lifted her as much as I could and SHOOK her. She avoided the geese after that. It's not often I would do something like that but with poultry about it had to be a short sharp lesson.
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Having bred working Border Collies for 20+ years, I have to agree with most of the previous posts.
I have had one of mine trained by Barbara Sykes and she is excellent and what she says about the food is right - high protein food can make a dog more excitable. But we are not here talking merely about excitability.
The temperament of the mother has a great effect. I once bought a bitch that tended to nip and all her offspring had the same tendency although we treated them the same as the rest, from more placid mothers, and with which we had no problem.
We kept a pup from the "nippy" collie as she was an excellent working dog, and the pup was too. He was brought up as a pet with my 2 lads (aged @ 9 and 10) and never teased or ill treated. He used to play football with the local kids with no problem. But once we had some friends staying. Their daughter was also @ 10 and she was sat down talking to my lads when for now apparent reason the dog jumped up and bit her face. We felt awful and realised we couldn't keep a dog that you couldn't trust with other people's children.
We couldn't train him out of it as it was so out of the blue and he'd never done it before, so we rehomed him to a sheep farmer in the Styx somewhere who had no children likely to visit.
The thing about collies is that for some of them nipping is as much part of their nature as is rounding up sheep. You cannot train them out of it like you can a dog that is trying to be dominant.
So in answer to the original question - I personally wouldn't keep a dog you couldn't trust with other people's children. You can't be there all the time and you can't be sure that a child doesn't inadvertently give out the wrong signal to the dog, who instinctively reacts by biting. It is the most awful feeling to find that your dog has injured someone else's child, especially when you knew that the possibility was there.
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Hmm..thanks again all, that makes very interesting reading, especially after today's events : Scout was out with us and during a quiet moment she tried to get up on the kids playpark bench, was helped by my son (who did nothing untoward, we were standing beside him) and she snarled and nipped him on the face - more of a fright for my son with a small scratch to the nose. I grabbed the dog and held her head down and shouted aggressively - she got the message, she was then put inside on her own.
I think it's time to go in hard after reading jaykays post. We will have to take this in hand and if it doesn't work in the next few months then we will have to reconsider the situation. The kids love her to bits of course which makes it difficult. Received B Sykes' book yesterday and just about read the whole thing last night. Easy in hindsight but a BC was perhaps not the best dog to get with kids.
I can't go to classes as OH works late all the time, we will go in hard and 'shock' her with noise etc. I don't think classes will do the trick really, she is obedient at all the command work, that's no problem really, it's the day to day living with us. Time will tell, I'll keep her away from other kids just now, sadly.
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I don't personally like aversives/punishments, but that's by the by.
What I want to emphasise is that you reward her for doing good things as well - even if it is only a "sit" before going through a door etc. Life is no fun if all you get is a telling off.
Please please be careful if you punish her for grumbling and growling though - this can lead to some dogs hiding these warning signs, being pushed too far, and just snapping. Have you checked for any medical reasons why she might be in pain from being touched?
Does she play well with other dogs at all? My collie bitch is a different kind of tired after playing, compared after a long walk!
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That's right, don't punish a dog for grumbling - they've got to have their say about it all :D I do tell mine 'that's enough' fiercely if they don't shut up after a while mind you, though with mine that's grumbling at each other.
And never do the noise/chasing thing to a dog in a confined place - they've got to be able to get away, once you've made the point.
And then when they come back, very sorry, let them and make a low-key contact with them and then get them to lie down with you and be quiet. Some very stressed BCs will fuss and fuss at this point - don't tell them off about this if so, just calm them down, gentle stokes and calm quiet voice.
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I must also echo Yorkshire Lass's sentiments about using punishments/aversives - when first used these techniques on my collie it made her worse - it was only improved when we used positive training techniques - saying that obviously dogs need boundaries and thrive best when these are consistently reinforced. I would encourage you to get advice from a suitably qualified person who can actually see your dog in the flesh and advise upon what they can actually see.
Good Luck
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This is very unhelpful and there has been loads of great advice posted before, but my experience of all collies has been considerably negative. We had two when I was growing up, one was great (we still didn't fully trust her, though) and one was dangerous and had to be destroyed. We lived near a farm where the collie would lie in hiding then rush out rabidly trying to kill the car or bike as you passed by. Some villagers locally have one which bites anyone who tries to stroke it. And out of all the others I've met over the years, the majority seem to be snappy or worse. Not a dog I'd ever have, although if you watch the lovely Cesar Millan it's down to the owner to overcome the issues, which I do agree with to a certain degree. Still wouldn't have one, though! Good luck! :wave:
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They are very smart, have obsessive tendencies and a very strong prey drive. Which makes them so good at what they do.
I love them, we never had anything else at home and I have two now, my parents three. But. And it is a big but, temperaments vary considerably. Even our friendly, people orientated ones need careful handling and I wouldn't say I'd got one of them behaving as well as I'd like. And those characteristics, when they go wrong for whatever reason, can result in a just the sort of dogs you describe Dizzy.
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Hi goosepimple :wave:
– it must be difficult and upsetting for you in this predicament , my thoughts on the matter........
--I know of several border collies which have not been “cut out to be family dogs” but go on to be good working dogs in a different environment .
-- If it was me I would be thinking of the children- not much fun for them ! and neither for you if always have to be on your” guard ” when the dog is around.
-- I am not saying the bitch will not improve with the correct training\ management, but from how I interoperate your post” it`s in her nature” and will probably always be underlying.
Best of luck with what ever happens
Tilly
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Goosepimple
I don't thimk classes would work anyway certainly not multidog ones. My BC and i got sent out the room twice in one class for her being " disruptive" to the other dogs when in fact she is just so highly strung she found the whole dog class senario too much for her. she couldn't concentrate on what i wanted and she ended up snapping at other dogs and people.
She has calmed down a lot with just one to ones with me, but she still finds too many people and too many dogs very stressful
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Goosepimple that is really worrying. Did your child perhaps squeeze her in helping her onto the bench? As with all breeds some BC's are wonderful with children and some are not, so your decision to get one wasn't wrong, this just may be the wrong dog to have around children. For now I would separate the dog from the children for safety - cage / outside kennel / anything! - until you decide on your next move. My next move would be to see an expert. I know she is a few hours drive away but why not book a session with Barbara Sykes? Or at least ring her she is very generous with advice on the phone. Please don't wait until a child is seriously hurt, this dog would now have been put down by some people. I don't think "getting hard" will do the trick it will probably worsen the situation if she is doing it through anxiety.
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Please don't go in hard, you will ruin her beyond all hope!
If you get to the stage where you feel you have no choice but to let her go, please contact The Border Collie Trust GB, they will evaluate and rehabilitate before rehoming her to a home that suits her personality, be it working or sports home. Do not feel bad if you do have to find her a new home.
Kids often make dogs, especially sensitive ones feel uncomfortable through absolutely no fault of their own, and what you and anyone else deems as untoward, unfortunately can be too much for a nervy BC to tolerate without help. Eye contact is a common one, as is any touch to the neck/chest area. It seems unfair, but it is just how some of them are, and without hands on experienced help, it is very hard to advise how to solve the problem.
If it were me, (and I have had a BC just like this RIP Tikki :love) I would for now, until you have been able to seek help allow no physical contact between dog and children.
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Sorry but the well being of your children must come first. You cannot keep a dog as a family pet but keep it away from the kids. find her a home with no children, with someone who understands the breed.
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My word! What a lot of information I'm reading and feeling very guilty that I didn't post about getting her in the first place - that would have been the thing to do!
On more careful observation of ongoings and reactions to poeple coming in the room etc, it is obvious I think that she just doesn't like the kids.
The dog herself isn't in pain about anything, is normal, friendly to everyone, playful, obedient, well exercised and is an all round good girl generally, I just don't think she likes the kids. She will do all the sit, stay, fetch stuff with them and play with her soft ball with them etc, but her threshold with them is very short. They are quiet types too but still... We will give her a chance but I have warned the children that there is a question mark over her and she may have to go. If this is the case then I have said we could get another dog that is more 'pet' friendly - we're not going down that route at the moment however. It is possible that we could rehome her with a shepherd to become a working dog, she is at a good age to train for this and is obedient around sheep and we are bound to find one in our area.
Thank you all so much for your contributions, what a learning curve, pity I didn't post pre-dog :-\
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Is she trying to be higher than them in the pecking order do you think?
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Is she trying to be higher than them in the pecking order do you think?
Or does she just regard them as 'littermates', which she would nip at to tell them how she's feeling?
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Good luck whatever you decide :wave:
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Apologies for not posting sooner again, laptop in for a health spa this past week.
Improvements have been made. Firstly, I should point out we are a completely non-agressive family so 'going in hard' is still low key. But that hasn't been necessary anyway. Now we are back into school routine, she has been great, playing with the kids, not grumpy with them and everything seems totally fine. Kids are feeding, taking bowl away etc., letting us do any telling off necessary.
I think there is something in the litter mates / pecking order scenario and it's just needing time to sort out and for us all to find our places in the set up. All the training efforts are as much for our benefit as hers I'm sure, she's whipping us all into shape. :D
I'll post a photo of the culprit later today.
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Glad things are sorting themselves out, no expert but I do not believe in hurting them to train them either.....a firm NO is much better than any smack or worse!!!!!!! I think snapping is often anxiety, they either feel vulnerable so to sort out the rest of the pack is the way forward...look forward to seeing the photos...If/when I go looopy i will full the house up with dogs!!!! :wave: