The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: plumseverywhere on December 31, 2011, 02:48:22 pm
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When we had a dead ewe collected the other day, something happened which upset me a bit and its made me wonder how much dealing you all have with the collection process and if I'm just too soppy to do this ;) its a bit horrible so I don't want to upset anyone, please don't read further if it might!
When I lost my first 2 goats we used the same collection people who are very nice, compassionate even on the phone (bearing in mind I struggled to communicate with them without crying!) first man came out, took the cheque told me to "go in love, I'll deal with it now, don't look". 2nd time hubby dealt with it.
This time I wheeled the barrow with the ewe down to the lorry and as the man opened the side hatch several animals with shot marks between their eyes tumbled down towards me, I saw cows, sheep, goats and I think ponies. The smell hit me and I felt quite ill. He managed to stop the animals falling out the hatch by blocking them quickly but I'm really not sure what to make of it all. the side hatch seems to be for the smaller animals and a rear one for those that need winching? so i don't think the big ones could have fallen out. Anyway I feel a bit weird and wonder if I could reasonably ask next time if I could just leave him wiht the barrow, pay and get out the way? What do you all do?
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I take mine to the hunt kennels, you leave them in the yard but there may well be other dead animals there too :-\
On the next occasion I would play the soppy female for all it's worth and ask the man if you can leave the barrow and skidaddle, as you just can't bear it. After all, how is anything improved by you being distressed and does it matter it the driver of the knacker lorry thinks you (and possibly other women) are soppy? It doesn't does it?
The only occasion when it's absolutely not ok to be soppy or squeamish is when you have to make a hard decision to stop an animal suffering - then one has to be brave and get on with it, no excuses. But otherwise, why does additional suffering (yours) help?
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Ahh I'm sorry you had to see that.
As with any job, it becomes very "matter of fact". I've not seen any almost falling out, but depending where we were on the "collection rounds" I have glimpsed the other bodies as our latest got winched in. The smell is always...distinctive.
There is no shame in doing as you suggest with leaving the barrow :bouquet:
(I started work experience and then a Saturday job in a vets, and have worked with large groups of livestock that weren't culled purely on age - so we had a certain number of natural casualties, and so while saddening, I can be quite "practical" about death of stock. )
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I take mine to the local knacker yard. I just don't look around me. You have to tell yourself that the animal is dead and can't be distressed by sight, smell or indignity.
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We've only had them out the once and it was Bruce who actually went out (man's work and all that ;)) but I could see exactly what was happening (they parked outside the window ::)) and remember, only too clearly, the smell from years ago when my Dad had cows.
I think you could easily play the girly card in future, but sooner or later you're going to need closure on your most recent experience (you're not going to be able to just forget about it)
All those animals were there for a reason Lisa. No-one sends them off for the hell of it, so although it was a hard thing to see it means that those animals are in a better place than they once were, no longer suffering.
And even though it must've been a horrific sight, the animals wouldn't have been aware of any of that - it would have been a quick and painless death in their own surroundings before loading after the 'deed' was done.
I know it's always said that when you've got livestock, you're going to have deadstock - but just because something happens, it doesn't make it easy or nice to deal with. I think you need to give yourself a break mrs :-* So you got upset, shocked and maybe even a bit of a fright - doesn't make you any different to the rest of us ;) and it certainly shouldn't make you think about whether or not you can do this - of course you can ! You ARE (and have been) doing it already.
Get the plum wine, some choccies and have a good cry about it if you need to - we'll all be here with the hankies :-*
Karen x
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This is something I'm dreading. My older goat will be eleven in April and is a pet as much as livestock. When dogs die or are put to sleep, the vet takes them off to be cremated. I know it's silly and, once she dies, it's only a dead animal but it's the thought of what will happen to her. I would bury her in the garden if I had enough space and the energy to dig a deep enough hole.
Funnily enough, the thought of eating Curry doesn't have the same effect even though he seems to have realised what's coming and is turning sweet again. Maybe it's because I have psyched myself up to thinking of him a potential meat.
Plums I do feel your distress. :bouquet:
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Thank you all ever so much for you lovely replies. I really wasn't sure what to expect with regard to my question so thanks for not thinking me too daft :bouquet:
Thank you Karen for helping me to see it differently, it helps to know that those in the cart wouldn't have been unaware of it all. And yes plum wine for sure later!! I did have a bit of a cry as I came back in the house but Hubby got a bit cross and just said "stop thinking about it..." which I would do if my subconcious self would let me - I've now been having nightmares about them tumbling out like that.
I agree totally about putting animals out of suffering Jaykay. My townie self some 20 yrs ago would probably not recognise the country self I have become. Its hard but you just have to don't you? My children have had such a journey and they are so grown up - I remember my 8 year old and I having a chat about the prognosis of a small lamb, I already knew the decision had been made in my head but I gave her pro's and cons and she made the same decision, cried for a few seconds and then said 'goodbye' to him.
Mad Goatwoman - its very hard, especially first time. My 2 goats died before their time so I had guilt as well as grief. Everyone here was worth their weight in gold in consoling me though, and we will be here for you when the time comes (hopefully a good while away yet though!!)
So yes, girly card from now on and collect the barrow from the roadside once I hear him drive off!!
thanks all
ps is it too early for that plum wine? well..its is new years eve ;)
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ps is it too early for that plum wine? well..its is new years eve ;)
My glass is here and ready for filling.
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and mine!
get one down you plums, happy new year!!
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:xmaswindow: glass full - CHEERS!! Have a lovely evening all :)
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anybody that cares for livestock has a certain sadness when dealing with deaths and disposals the stink is always at the back of your mind and the aroma is easily kindled just think of townies when the cart passes through there towns they must be heaving esp in summer
look at the others on the cart and behind every death there is a story they are on there way to make bio diesel
i could relate some story's but you would be boaking over your keyboards :farmer:
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I would bury her in the garden if I had enough space and the energy to dig a deep enough hole.
... and if it were legal, which it sadly isn't.
Plums, you know we lost our first goat - I was at work and hubby dealt with the knackers - he said he's seen stuff in the van. We would have much prefered to bury her, much loved she was.
When Murphy the boar had to be put to sleep, we carried him down from the pig shed & he had to lie out overnight.
When the van came I had to help carry him and swing him in... You can't help but look in, if you are like me!
Lots of horses, including a foal in a bath that had drowned and was stuck. that was pretty grim.
And not the kind of thing you can tell people, so thanks for starting a thread that can help me get it off my chest!
this van comes with just a driver, so somebody here has to help.
I can deal with it - its losing the animal that distresses me. I have abit of a morbid interest, so would sooner know than not :-/
Lisa, if you still need to "talk about it" feel free to PM me, I can read a description of anything if you think it will help you :)
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Our casualties are left where the 'dead cart' knows where to find them and we are often not about to help - they have a winch inside so can manage on their own if need be.
BH has farmed all his life, and his father before him. He is still affected by a loss, especially of a young animal that should have had some years ahead of it.
We were invited by the meat company to visit their processing plant to see how our lambs are handled. BH was almost physically sick at the thought of anyone voluntarily going to watch hundreds of young lambs getting butched every hour, and was really rather offended that they would think that a farmer, who's whole aim in life is to produce good quality, healthy livestock, would want to see such a thing.
We are both still having flashbacks to that awful accident in the summer, with our ewes and lambs massacred by an inattentive driver.
So, no, plums, there's nothing wrong with you feeling how you do and not wanting to see the inside of that cart. Rather, there would be something very wrong if it did not affect you. :bouquet: And, as I hope I have demonstrated, it ain't girly at all - it's human. :-*
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Its so hard isn't it Little Blue? I'm glad that starting this thread has helped by providing somewhere for us to air our concerns about when livestock die and the ultimate collection in the lorry. After Avocet died (you probably remember I was beside myself as we'd gone on holiday) I remember asking the man on the phone "what will happen to her?" he was obviously uncomfortable as he knew I was distressed and he didn't want to worsen it. Its probably so very different to the commercial farmer who has many animals and although every loss comes with a sadness, its less of a personal grief as to when one of your few goats, sheep, pigs etc dies and you have a name for it and you know its personality. When I lose a chicken it feels quite different to losing a goat.
Its like you say that final act of having to swing Murphy in and hoping that they continue to at least treat our animals with some respect at the other end, just a little, I am trying to be realistic honest :)
the image of the foal must have really stuck with you, seeing all the calves with shot marks between their eyes, it really felt that thye were looking at me. and there were fluffy animals too which I can't imagine what they were - maybe alpaca's. now this was 10am - he'd done a lot of journeys to have so many animals that time of day?!
thanks for the offer, I might well take you up on that - and likewise for you too.
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Sally, what happened to your stock in the summer made me cry - I remember reading your post and being absolutely devastated for you.
someone put on my FB status that my reaction shows I care about my animals and I do. I just worry I care too much sometimes and its at detriment to my health. If Tony knew I was still 'talking' about the lorry incident he'd tell me right off, he has told me to move on. But I know it will take more than 48 hours, not much more, but I need to process it in my head.
I nursed for years. I was a sister and also a clinical site manager. When I was very heavily pregnant with my first, my bleep went off for a paediatric cardiac arrest in A&E, I ran to the arrest as it was part of my role to commence CPR, find ITU beds etc but the staff wouldn't let me in because I was pregnant and they feared I'd not cope - it was a baby who'd suffered sudden infant death syndrome and couldn't be resuscitated :'( Back then though I coped and saw lots of very horrible deaths. I think this is why I'm shocked at my own response to this.
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I've only had ponies taken away which involves winching - Douglasbrae who come for them are always very respectful and suggest I go somewhere while they do that, but it's not a nice sight. They've never let me see any other stock on the wagon, it's all tarped over and secured throughout.
A couple of times have not been possible to go away and not watch - when my first old mare age 26 was pts it was a local farmer that came with a JCB to bury her (it was permitted then) and he lifted her on the bucket and dropped her in the grave he'd dug. I can tell you that was no easier to witness :(
In April I had the worst ever experience of a pony dying - she was 4, bred by myself, a favourite, and from the accident at 10-11am she had a chance of recovery so I sat in the field for hours until it became obvious her time was over. I called the vets back at 3, they came at 5 :( and by that time it was too late for Douglasbrae to come out until 830 next morning so a friend had to drag my beautiful girl up the field with a tractor during the evening rush hour on the main road that passes the field length :( I had to cover her in the yard overnight, and then a neighbour had to come out with a forklift to load her on the lorry next morning (yep, rush hour again) cos the wagon couldn't get in my drive to winch her :( Horrendous and I had to be behind the tractor to open and close gates so I didn't leave next morning when they suggested it as I had already seen the worst. It is just heartbreaking..
I've also had to bury 4 cats and a kitten, and an aborted 7 month foal foetus - so I reckon I am pretty capable when needed and just fall apart afterwards, trying not to upset the professional knacker men ::)
I'm so sorry you had to see the other stock - in answer to your question (with apologies for venting my own story) I would leave the barrow with him another time, these guys do understand and I find would far rather get on with it without owner emotions which they find more difficult to deal with..
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EllieD thank you for sharing your story - I appreciate it I really do and I hope that in a way it does help people to talk about what they've seen and experienced Like Little Blue said.
I think it was seeing horses in that truck 2 days ago that triggered me - for some really stupid reason it never crossed my mind that there would be horses in there. cows and sheep yes but not an animal that is a 'pet' in such a way a child's pony is.
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dogs as well :farmer:
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they collect dogs too?
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they used to from the vets :farmer:
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We had the 'wagon' out for the first time this year and OH was at work. The only whole day I've had away this year we went down to the in-laws so return to my super jacob ram lamb on his own - I ran up to find he'd been dead for some time - it was saturday and we had to wait till monday for collection. I found it very upsetting - I wheel barrowed him to the cart and although the driver was respectful I had to help 'swing' him in and there was lots of dead sheep and cows - still see it very vividally, the smell and the overwhelming feeling of sadness.
Plums I think it's because we care and we always will - it's never going to be easy - in fact probably worse when it's one of my goats as although I do breed them, they are pets to me. I love all my sheep and my girls have names but this ram lamb was destined for your know where so in my head he wasn't going to be here forever. Also like you Plums my OH told me to stop thinking about it but it's not easy when it's something so upsetting - hope you feel a bit soon
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Sweeping generalisation here but most blokes deal with things by stopping thinking about them (they have to, their cortisol levels rise to a dangerous pitch and they need to lower them - same reason they walk away from rows).
But most women deal with things by talking through them - that would be horribly stressful for most blokes, just as 'not talking about it' is stressful for most women.
We each deal with it as suits us best :-*
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we use douglas brae too, always very nice and couteous. sometimes u see the odd foot etc poking out from under the tarp.
:( :(
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I'm actually glad to read other folk's experiences, not the kind of thing you discuss in polite conversation!
Usually I'm preoccupied with the practicalities (including getting them to the best collection point on that piece of land, but keeping them out of sight of the public. I once had to choose between placing a body hidden from a main village but in sight of the playground, or vice versa. I think that bothered me more than anything at the time!).
I also seem to handle it better if they're found dead as opposed to having to be there when they're put down.
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I agree Yorkshire Lass. Our land is quite hilly and this ewe had chosen to die half way up a hill in direct eyeline of the only cottages that join onto our land! I was very concious of getting her moved at least into the barn to wait for collection because of children that live 3 doors down and the fact that the crows were doing what crows do to dead sheep and my own children could see that.
S*ds law that when the collection van was here several neighbours all came out of their front doors (quite by chance) as the ewe was being flung into the van ::) I felt really guilty that they saw it but what else can I do?
I've not had any livestock PTS (although hubby took a 7 wk old lamb and just left him there and I got cross because I said he should have stayed!) but i've held my cats as they've been euthinased and I hate it but wouldn't want to not be there either.
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Plums you are only human, it affects everyone who cares about animals :-*.
I work at a vets and I can see where you're coming from when you say about your nursing, all your patients are important to you and you care equally for each and everyone of them but you are able to keep them at a distance which you can't for your own nearest and dearest including animals in your care and when you see your own it is upsetting. I do still get upset sometimes when some are PTS that you get to know as I'm sure you will have been with your patients but if you were emotionally attatched to them all you could never do the job
I'm usually the one who has to deal with our animals here if we have them PTS it is me who holds them, OH doesn't like to be around but I like to be with them when they go, we're all different. When it comes to burying we work together. We have ponies and it is never easy to deal with them, find that the hardest of all, there's no dignified way of moving them :-[. One of our water buffalo died on Thursday and I found it really sad that the others went and slept next to him but when it came to taking him away I can switch off and can be there but OH can't.
We take the sheep to the kennels and I hate that job because of the smell, not nice, feel for the huntsman, they do a fab job. I've cried infront of them and they're lovely about it :)
The day a death of one of your animals doesn't affect you in some way is the day you stop having them xxx
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We had a pig die unexpectedly in the summer. The wife cried her eyes out but I don't really see the difference between death from natural causes etc and taking an animal to the abatoir. If the pig had not died on the farm I would have taken it to slaughter soon anyway. It's not pleasant but s**t happens. Coping with this sort of thing is part of farming. We are lucky enough to live only a couple of miles from our local knacker's yard so I chucked the carcass in the trailer and took it down there. Dogs however are a different matter I balled me eyes out when we lost our poor old lab a couple of years ago.
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I have dealt with the National Fallen Stock Company and felt that they have been very helpful. No cash to change hands at the time which I think makes things even more sickly when you have to deal with a death. I tie the legs together with baler twine to make the job a bit easier for the men who come. I am thankful that I have not had to deal with anything messy or distressing yet. I put the carcass in a place where it can be taken easily and cover it up with a one ton builders bag. It is horrible and the only way I can cope with it is to find a place of detachment inside myself. It's the same emotional store place I go to when I have to dispatch any livestock or injured bird. Large glass of home made sloe wine is always required along with a bit of soul searching and a few tears when it has gone. I am a real coward and have not dared to look into the fallen stock container. I can imagine having Gurnica style nightmares too. Sadly if you have livestock you also will have dead stock at some time too.
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We had a pig die unexpectedly in the summer. The wife cried her eyes out but I don't really see the difference between death from natural causes etc and taking an animal to the abatoir. If the pig had not died on the farm I would have taken it to slaughter soon anyway. It's not pleasant but s**t happens. Coping with this sort of thing is part of farming. We are lucky enough to live only a couple of miles from our local knacker's yard so I chucked the carcass in the trailer and took it down there. Dogs however are a different matter I balled me eyes out when we lost our poor old lab a couple of years ago.
Yes it is part of farming dealing with death however the whole point of rearing animals is to raise them healthy and then have an end product. Don't know what your plan was for your pig but if you were having the meat back then you've missed out on that, so this is the difference. Yes end result is the same, death of the animal but what you got in the end isn't the same ;) For farmers making a living you need as many animals as you can to make it :)
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It's when the animals are also pets. If I kept a whole herd of dairy goats, I would be sorry but not upset. I went on a trip to a goat farm and watched a goat that had died during the night having a post mortem and that was fine, but it wasn't MY GOAT. When the time comes, I will be crying on here and on anyone who will listen. It's important to off load and I feel sorry for the men who aren't able to. My OH didn't even cry or say much when his mother died yet he was devoted to her. I was the one who cried.
Plums, I think it is so good that you were open about your feelings. It's given us a chance to share ours. I think I need to find out in advance what to do when it happens to one of mine. I'd hate to have to be ringing round asking for advice afterwards so I'm going to check with some local goat keepers.
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And that is point that my eldest daughter (now only 10) made so rightly Mad goatlady. When you do only have a few pet goats its very different how you feel.
I would say get some numbers at hand for collection companies. Ask local goat people who they would recommend based on what we have chatted about here perhaps. Even ask your vet if they know of a good one. You want one who won't leave you waiting for several days (like I had once when I lost Avocet)
Have an idea in your head of how you will deal with the death eg. if your goat dies naturally on your premises (or is PTS there) some recommend leaving the body for a while so the other animals know they have died and not been taken by a predator - if the body is whisked away too quickly then the others become stressed thinking they are under potential attack too.
Keep your list in your holding register so it is easy to find and you will need to fill in the register after collection too.
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And a huge thank you to everyone because last night I actually slept all night (apart from the fireworks lol) and I truly believe that being listened to and understood by my friends here was the reason I actually did :thumbsup: :bouquet:
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And that is point that my eldest daughter (now only 10) made so rightly Mad goatlady. When you do only have a few pet goats its very different how you feel.
Hate to disagree, but....
My Dad was running a 100 head herd of beef cattle (I've always considered him a 'proper' farmer in the commercial sense) but he knew each of his cows by sight. I always remember a story he told me about having a cow start to get ill on the day before Xmas eve (many years ago now) The vet told him if he took it to slaughter that day it would be okay, but otherwise the carcass would be a 'dead loss'. He duly loaded the cow and set off. It was busy at the abattoir, it was almost finishing time and the guys were hanging on for him. As he unloaded and got the cow to the bottom of the trailer ramp the slaughterman came out and 'dropped' the cow right there in front of him - despite having farmed all his life and seeing many deaths this one really got to him. He's never taken another animal to slaughter since then :'( (until he had to accompany me with my first batch of pigs, and it was on the way home that he told me the story)
Moral of the story - you either care or you don't, I don't think the number of animals you have affects that :-*
Glad you got a good sleep Lisa :thumbsup:
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Yes it is part of farming dealing with death however the whole point of rearing animals is to raise them healthy and then have an end product. Don't know what your plan was for your pig but if you were having the meat back then you've missed out on that, so this is the difference. Yes end result is the same, death of the animal but what you got in the end isn't the same ;) For farmers making a living you need as many animals as you can to make it :)
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Obviously yes but that isn't what this thread is about. Which raises the question, are people upset about the animal dying, because they've lost money on the deal, or just because they've seen something unpleasant in the back of a lorry?
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I am sorry you had such a bad time, Plums
I have to say our fallen stock man is an absolute gem. we leave a dead sheep at a certain place and he picks it up , always rings to say he's coming. We had a poorly ewe 2 days ago and she did rally round and then went down hill again, our vet said there was no more we could do for her . We came in that morning to find her stretched out near dead so we called the knackerman. He said he was close by and would be there shortly.
We were going to shoot her but he was there so quickly we loaded her in the tractor box and took her out to him, he had her shot before we had even climbed down from the tractor.
On the load that day were cows and a pony and we had some dead lambs too. i think we get used to seeing dead animals in the Forest there are a lot of road kills here with the Ponies and Deer.
I don't think it means you're daft when it affects you it just means you care.I don't like to see it but it doesn't affect me badly when i do, i would always prefer people to put an animal down rather than let it suffer
We are very lucky in this area to have sensitive people to deal with this sort of thing. I feel for anyone who doesn't
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This is something I'm dreading. My older goat will be eleven in April and is a pet as much as livestock. When dogs die or are put to sleep, the vet takes them off to be cremated. I know it's silly and, once she dies, it's only a dead animal but it's the thought of what will happen to her. I would bury her in the garden if I had enough space and the energy to dig a deep enough hole.
Funnily enough, the thought of eating Curry doesn't have the same effect even though he seems to have realised what's coming and is turning sweet again. Maybe it's because I have psyched myself up to thinking of him a potential meat.
Plums I do feel your distress. :bouquet:
Our local knacker yard also run a pet crem. They do anything from a hampster to a horse and do it so nicely. Pricey, mind you for big animals or tiny ones. If anyone who wants a private cremation i.e. a single animal rather than a lot put in together they are invited to watch the procedure to make sure.
Sal has done all my dogs and with the utmost care and dignity.
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some recommend leaving the body for a while so the other animals know they have died and not been taken by a predator - if the body is whisked away too quickly then the others become stressed thinking they are under potential attack too.
Definitely true ... when we have lost cats, dogs, rabbits, Margo the goat, Murphy the pig and piglets - all have been left a short while, and the others have come up to sniff them.
Its very hard to describe without sounding sentimental or anthropromorphise BUT, it is as if they want to check them and say goodbye, all very calm and serene, even the lairy ones.
When Margo was taken away, Cesar & Geraldine both stood up to the fence to watch, and were very quiet (unusual for them!)
We have even had a cat sit with a paw on the burial site of the old dog, and where my in-laws' ashes are.
Usually the cats see upturned soil as a potential toilet... but not there!
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some recommend leaving the body for a while so the other animals know they have died and not been taken by a predator - if the body is whisked away too quickly then the others become stressed thinking they are under potential attack too.
Definitely true ... when we have lost cats, dogs, rabbits, Margo the goat, Murphy the pig and piglets - all have been left a short while, and the others have come up to sniff them.
Its very hard to describe without sounding sentimental or anthropromorphise BUT, it is as if they want to check them and say goodbye, all very calm and serene, even the lairy ones.
When Margo was taken away, Cesar & Geraldine both stood up to the fence to watch, and were very quiet (unusual for them!)
We have even had a cat sit with a paw on the burial site of the old dog, and where my in-laws' ashes are.
Usually the cats see upturned soil as a potential toilet... but not there!
Absolutely. We had to have our GSD Gurney, PTS nearly 3 years ago. He and Daisy dog were an item and she ran round for days looking for him. I wished then that we had taken her to the vets to say goodbye to him.
Plums, thanks for your advice. I will speak to someone tomorrow and get some numbers. I'm glad you slept better.