The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: welshlass181 on December 18, 2011, 09:15:37 pm
-
I have a question. I've read somewhere that there is a limit that you can travel livestock without some licence that you can get from an agri college or someting. Anyway, from what i read about it it only counts if you intend to gain finacially from the pigs ... so if they were going for pets or to be transported as rescues that will have no financial gain could they be transported over the 40 odd miles or whatever it is? Or have i totally read it wrongly
-
The transport regs apply to animals 'transported in connection economic activity'. Well, since I reckon anything to do with my animals is extremely uneconomic, the regs don't apply :D We'll see if the inspector agrees on Wed ::)
-
Welshlass
You seem to have a fixation with travel regs, why, do you look like a pikey outfit or do you get pulled up all the time for dodgy driving?
Generally as you say if the journey is not for economic gain you can transport what you want where you want over any distance, the other get out is to have one human passenger per animal passenger.(a loophole in the legislation) If you do get pulled up by the police they are looking for stolen stock and so long as you have movement paperwork to prove provenance & your vehicle is in order, they'll be fine with you (they don't even know about livestock transport licences they're too busy looking for rustlers and drunks at this time of year!!) If you get pulled by the ministry (ie taken to weigh/inspecton station) they will want to see you movement docs again, your driving licence and that your vehicle isn't overweight and is all in working order and its not on red diesel, again they aren't really up on WIT, so smile nicely and wish them merry xmas.
Do your move as above and you should have no probs, you're stressing looking for stuff thats not out there.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
-
Never been pulled full stop tbh and yes i am probably being a bit stupid about this but at the end of the day i want to be able to know what i am doing and what is legal. I use a CLH stock trailer that was pulled by my olv volvo but will now be pulled by my jeep. I am a bit paranoid about my licence as it cost me so much to get and i wanna keep it clean :)
I've never heard of this until i saw about a rescue goat a little while ago and somebody mentioned this milage limit thingy.
And i'm very new to all this and there is so much confilcting info online the best people to ask and get a straight answer is a group of people who live it everyday.
-
Well worth getting your transport licence anyway. It's really easy...... and then you don't have to worry about lengths of journeys, you'll know you're covered.
I was just wondering how long the journey is that you are planning?
-
OK quick basic primer in transport law.
In England & Wales you would come under one of the Welfare of Animals Transport Orders (WATO) (parallel versions for England & Scotland and Northern Ireland - all 2006 and same for Wales in 2007)
This implements into UK law EU regulation 1/2005, a small regulation of 44 pages!
WATO covers everyone, but exempts some people from most of the regs. In essence whilst still responsible for the general welfare of your animals, you do not have to complete most of the paperwork.
General guidance on pigs is in the doc below
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb12544d-pigs-080711.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb12544d-pigs-080711.pdf)
First exception from the specific rules is if you are not moving animals in connection with an economic activity. Defra have guidance on what they consider economic, and the fact that you are eating your produce seems sufficient to count as economic - see the following general guide, but lack of profit or financial gain don't count.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13550-wato-guidance.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13550-wato-guidance.pdf)
Second exemption is under article 1 - which covers farmers transporting their own animals in their own vehicles less than 50km.
Trips to vets are also excluded.
Defra also have an unofficial (non-EU approved) exemption called the single animal exemption that if the number of adults = number of animals being transported up to 4 adults/animals then you are also exempt. This exemption can be withdrawn if abused according to defra. See 1.5/1.6/1.7/1.8 of the WATO guidance document above.
If you aren't in the above, then the rules apply, so we then get 3 types of journey
Under 65km - You must carry an "animal transporter certificate" ATC - the extact form isn't specified, but if you do eaml and answer all the q's, the print will have all the info (and more!) that is needed. The Scottish version also has a proforma that complies with the rules. The existing paper AML also has Section B that is effectively an ATC. You don't have to use any of these forms, but it helps if you do.
You trailer must also be legal (lots of technical bits) including ramps angles - guidance on a legal trailer below
http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/transport/documents/2e-vehicle_spec_other.pdf (http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/transport/documents/2e-vehicle_spec_other.pdf)
and lots of various rules on not moving animals of different ages together, near birth etc.
Over 65km and under 8 hours - all the above, plus you must be certified, simple exam 27 multiple choice questions, species specific, so separate exams for pigs, sheep, cattle and poultry.
Over 65km and over 8 hours - you and vehicle must both be certified, and frankly don't go there - if you're planning on moving more than 4 of your own animals over 8 hours, get someone to do it for you, it'll be cheaper !
After that we get to regulations on trailers and what can to towed by what and who - will leave that to another post !
-
That link is very helpful.
Section 1.15 states that hobby breeders not running a business are exempt.
It specifically states farm livestock and poultry as an example of a hobby and the criteria for assessing whether or not it's a business is: Income exceeds expenses, whether from subsidies or selling produce/animals.
-
Income exceeds expenditure.....
I look forward to that happening one day :) :) :)
-
everybody is looking for a get out clause the only one you can get is the exemption with up to 4 animals accompanied with 4 passengers :farmer:
-
and it not being a business
-
we got pulled by the police once when we had a big ram lamb in the back of car. it was dark but he kept tapping at window with his horns. they never said a word about it, maybe they thot it was a dog!
i did have licenses etc but never had to show them.
-
That link is very helpful.
Section 1.15 states that hobby breeders not running a business are exempt.
It specifically states farm livestock and poultry as an example of a hobby and the criteria for assessing whether or not it's a business is: Income exceeds expenses, whether from subsidies or selling produce/animals.
Jaykay - is not well phrased but "(in relation to livestock) whether subsidy payments are claimed or for the selling of offspring, meat and meat products, wool, eggs, cheese, milk etc (this is an illustrative list only);" I read as you're not hobby if you're selling stock or meat
However this is just Defra's (not the court's) view - and you must make your own judgement.
-
we got pulled by the police once when we had a big ram lamb in the back of car. it was dark but he kept tapping at window with his horns. they never said a word about it, maybe they thot it was a dog!
i did have licenses etc but never had to show them.
They'd probably already bought that fact up on their amazing computery thing that tells them everything about you, whether you have insurance, a valid tax disc etc.
-
Like i already said the police can't be arsed with livestock regs they're looking for anything stolen, unroadworthy, not taxed, tested or insured.
mandy :pig:
-
The way I see it is that this is another stealth tax and it's one I'm not going to pay. As Mandy says the police have better things to do than check up on petty bureaucracy.
I have better things to do with my money than give even more of it to the powers that be. >:(
-
Like i already said the police can't be arsed with livestock regs they're looking for anything stolen, unroadworthy, not taxed, tested or insured.
mandy :pig:
I was told by a police friend that stopping livestock trailers around here is a big no-no. If they find something wrong, then they are stuck with you and the trailer until you have sorted something out - like until you have found a friend to come with a trailer, then you have the problem of how to move animals between the two safely - police will be critised if pig escapes and runs into traffic causing an accident. They cannot let you drive off whilst still illegal, so one brake light not working is a big hassle for them, as is wrong number plate. So unless you're really obviously doing something very illegal, or they have Defra/Trading standards and are doing a lay-by pull-in, you are not likely to get pulled. No doubt someone has other tales, but seeing the large no. of trailers that seem to have pretty obvous wrong number plates, and half working lighting boards tied onto the trailer with bits of bailier-twine, and never having had anyone I know personnaly stopped, the above would seem plausible :)
-
Jaykay - is not well phrased but "(in relation to livestock) whether subsidy payments are claimed or for the selling of offspring, meat and meat products, wool, eggs, cheese, milk etc (this is an illustrative list only);" I read as you're not hobby if you're selling stock or meat
It is badly written, mainly because someone has ignored the semicolon and put an extra bullet point in. It seems most likely someone official wrote it and some secretary somewhere bullet-pointed the list.
If you read the sense of the phrase intended by the semicolon, then it's saying you're not a business if your income exceeds expenses either because you claim subsidies or from the sale of produce etc. After all, if you couldn't sell produce or animals, you'd have no income at all, would you, from your hobby, let alone it not exceeding expenses.
Ha, being a nuisance to the Police is probably the best protection we have then :D
-
As Mandy says the police have better things to do than check up on petty bureaucracy.
>:(
The only time my certificate of competance has been checked is last year when we went to the surrey county show, which was 90km away, with 2 of us and 8 pigs. TS on arrival asked for it - knew it was in the glove box (put it there in 2005!), but took 2 minutes to unbury it from the old polos, numerous bits of paper and biros with no tops that lurk in there!
-
as one who has maybe been up and down the road system a lot i personally have not been pulled yet neither have i seen anybody being pulled other than dodgy old bangers that look overloaded and yes i run with the wrong number plate and exceed the speed limit but on balance i think i could stand a close inspection by plod vosa defra and trading standards just waiting for the renewal of my certificate to transport up to 8 hours with the e aml you are committing yourself on the aml to all your transgressions :farmer:
-
the reason i was pulled was - my full beam flashed the coppers in front of me (loose connection)) and they thought id bin hijacked and was trying to signal help so followed me for 5 miles before pulling me!
highly embarrassing but they never mentioned the sheep or 4 kids snoring in the back!
-
was your other half in the car when you were pulled if he was i bet he was not amused ;) :farmer:
-
was your other half in the car when you were pulled
nah - hes history. im currently looking for younger richer model. ;) ;)
-
are you not better going for a rich old codger ready to keal over :farmer:
-
I might be in the market for one - depends how many acres and how dodgy the heart condition.
-
and on this very subject i am going to post a joke :thumbsup: :farmer:
-
are you not better going for a rich old codger ready to keal over :farmer:
has to be fit enough to chop down trees for the firewood. its freezing here...lol
-
chainsaw and a log splitter are cheaper and don't break your heart making you a recluse :farmer:
-
grr i had a chainsaw but he never gave it back! nevermind. ;)
-
I've just done (and passed!) my certificate of competence for short journeys (<8 ours), and it was very straightforward. The definition of transporting animals as an economic activity does not depend on whether you make a profit but whether you run it as a commercial activity so for example a charity or non-profit organisation may still be engaged in commercial activity transporting animals. Hobby breeders are exempt. At what point a hobby that brings in a bit of cash becomes commercial is not specified: but I feel happier having the piece of paper now that our local abattoir has shut so I'm having to use one more than 40 miles away (now that, I'm not happy about!)
-
At what point a hobby that brings in a bit of cash becomes commercial is not specified
It is, see paragraph 1.15 of the Welfare of animals during Transport document.
Just been inspected. N/A against certificate of competence - reason 'I'm a hobby breeder not an economic activity'. Definition ' I don't suppose for a minute your income from your animals exceeds your outgoings, does it?'
But if you feel happier with the certificate that's good :)
-
tiva i take it that you have to go shotts now what is wrong with the old slaughter house acting as a collection point when we used st andrews it was half a day to go and come back and the same again to collect
also heard that wishaw (that is the one that lost happys pig) is part of the same group (lawrie and symington) :farmer:
-
Definition ' I don't suppose for a minute your income from your animals exceeds your outgoings, does it?'
No but don't tell my husband this is my alleged ;D self financing hobby NOT ha ha
mandy :pig:
-
Definition ' I don't suppose for a minute your income from your animals exceeds your outgoings, does it?'
No but don't tell my husband this is my alleged self financing hobby NOT ha ha
Ha, my Dad tries to persuade my mum of this too.
Another benefit of DH moving out - I can spend my money as I please ;D