The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: northfifeduckling on March 15, 2009, 04:52:58 pm
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I wondered if people can share their experience with traditionally farming neighbours. The guy who rents all the land from our direct neighbours has just ploughed the field right up to our fence. I complained before, when he decided to cut our hawthorn hedge right up to the fence so he could get another few inches out of it. His response was "it is my right and that hedge hadn't been cut for years"...I feel that we do not have any rights whatsoever. He never tells us when or what he sprays. In previous years it was only my own veg crops I was concerned about but now we have the birds, which graze right up to the hedge from the other side. Do we have any rights and who can tell us what they are? :&>
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hello NFD,
there are rules/laws for spraying ie wind direction blowing towards neighbours etc , but if he did spray it would be down to you to prove that the wind was blowing towards you and that the spray went on your plants/animals and had a detrimental effect. I have known a few people that have had this problem , and apart from just comming to an agreement with the neighbour there isn't really much you can do , unless you want all out war and lots of court cases and legal bills to pay ???? . As for the hedge ? , most hedges are owned by both parties as a rule , unless there is some stipulated difference on the deeds? It is therefore a dual right/obligation to look after and repair hedges , laws and boundry rights are somewhat different in towns etc. It is all much more vague in country areas, mind you I know nothing of Scottish law !!!!! As for ploughing close to the fence , nothing can be done there unless he is claiming set asside or being paid to leave a natural headland round the field ? I am not a lawyer and there may be legal grounds you could follow ??? but I have known people with similar problems and it cost them lots of money to get nowhere.......I doubt there is an easy answer that would cover all events and problems apart from trying to appeal to his better nature ( I do know some people don't have one !!!) Sorry I can't give a better answer !!!!
cheers
Russ
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Thanks, Russ. A friend of mine was sprayed when she tried to close her polytunnel to stop the poison (a copper phosphate I think, but I'm not 100% sure) getting in. She immediately reacted with severe skin problems and has since fought against ME and Fibromyalgia. She got nowhere with the law, but things might have changed since then and she was too ill to get her teeth into a war...I just don't know where to look for stuff in black and white - web or elsewhere...
The hedge is on our side of the fence, planted by my OH.
The farmer in question is just one of those who don't give a ****. All I'd get is another "it is my right". :&>
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Scottish Law is much the same, both parties to the boundary fence / or hedge has similar responsibilities.
The owner or tenant must keep his part in good repair and most importantly stock proof,
For instance, an owner must not knowingly allow damage to be caused to his land through inadequate fencing, whereby his neighbours stock
can gain access to his land.
and the adjacent owner / tenant, may be liable to penalty and fine if he allows his stock to roam,
These matters all too frequently end up in court, and once they do it can be a long drawn out affair, not at all pleasant.
Best to try to negotiate, a truce, rather than resort to court action.
Not a lawyer, but have had the experience.
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If the hedge is yours, on your land, you have a claim for malicious damage.
Places to look for information are on Lawyers websites, the courts websites, the house of lords,/ millbankhansard (very old records, old cases. old laws, of which a few have been repealed)
The British Farming Forum, may be of use (or certainly, you can be sure, someone will know more than me)
I will find some links for your perusal and I will post them here.
:)
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Type your query into google, it will throw up everything it can find on the subject
Here are a few to be going on with;
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=498752
http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/mainindex.shtml
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/
http://www.dur.ac.uk/ibru/resources/links/
http://www.lands-tribunal-scotland.org.uk/decisions/LTS.LR.1992.2.html
I wish you luck
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the hedge would be yours then , the farmer could only cut upto the fence in that case. I think by law he would even be obliged to give you back any trimmings ???? I don't know all or even most laws on spraying , but I know that there are new EU laws that state that for certain sprays the sprayer MUST have a licence to spray the chemical , he must be trained to spray it and he must use the correct sprayer and on suitable days. I know some farmers that have to wear complete chemical proof suits when spraying now, where only a few years ago they could just spray how they wanted!!! I thank god that my neighbour just spreads slurry onto the fields next to mine, mind you thats bad enough in summer with no wind to blow the smell away, my land is in a valley and the smell can hang around for days .... The only thing I can suggest is that you phone up defra and just ask what the laws on spraying are , or where to look for the appropriate regulations on their web site? There are most likely different rules for different sprays too , so unless you know what your neighbour is spraying , it may be very vague? I am sorry for your friend too, I hate to think what I have been sprayed with over the years ???? I have been covered maybe a dozen times , doesn't bear thinking about !!!! My neighbour wanted to cut my hedge back with one of those b**tard flail things ....( there were other things he was going on about too) , well , I was in a foul mood that day so told him to ****ff and if he did cut it, I would kick the crap out of him !!!! The hedge has remained uncut (so far ) . He is one of those people that if you gave an inch he would take a mile , he even just stole two fields from another neighbour ,nearly 12 acres. The other chap is old and doesn't want to kick up a fuss , well the first one knows this and took advantage of it ... let him try it with me ......suffice to say I haven't always been as I am now !!!! These things are a real minefield though , and my reaction to it would be different to yours . You could maybe try scare tactics? ask him what he is spraying ? as you are severely allergic to many chemicals and could die if exposed to them !!! So if he could let you know what he is spraying and when,you could make a point of being out when he does spray. At least that way you would know what is being sprayed ? , and he may think twice about using it even ? As they say , many ways to skin a cat .....
cheers
Russ
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Makes you wonder is anything that requires the operator to be in a full chemical suit shoudl be sprayed anywhere ???
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Thanks for or all your moral support and useful advice! The first step appears to be Defra now, the Council's probably useless there...As it is about protecting our livestock after all (who cares about us and our vegetables, not mentioning our hedge), we might have a leg to stand on. I want to have a good "portfolio" together when speaking to the new generation of landowners (the previous elderly couple sadly died). In the olden times we had runaway cows, horses chased by their riders and even parts of the fox hunt going through our garden (hence the tall hedge!), but we let it go. But the guy renting the land for the last few years and spraying whatever and whenever he pleases really does challenge me and my goodwill...:&>
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Do you know who he rents the land from? Perhaps you could contact them? I was going to post earlier that you could let Defra know that he is spraying without protection and that you were concerned for your own land and animals. The downside is he might become more aggressive if he finds out it was you that reported it - perhaps that's not an issue though.
I had a difficult neighbour in my last home - always making unusual noises to make the dogs bark then reporting me to the Dog Warden. I tried giving him gifts of fresh eggs, and all he could say was how nice and quiet it had been one day and how nice it was that I was taking his discomfort onboard. I wasn't - he had visitors all day and wasn't down at the fence making a noise. I gave up after that - reckoned he was passive aggressive. Dog warden was a friend anyway but he didn't know that. She said just to ignore him as she knew my dogs didn't bark. But I was SOOOO glad I found this house down here and sold the last one - super neighbours now.
Good luck whatever you decide, Kirsten, and keep us posted
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exactly Rosemary !!!! I asked one farmer I know, why he needed the suit and he said "new laws" , he also said that you wouldn't want any of the chemical on you at all !!! " It WILL KILL YOU" ,but he was spraying barley which was to be used as feed for his BEEF CATTLE .......and where do they end up ???? ye gods .....is it me ? lets spray a food grain with a highly toxic substance that will KILL man , and then feed it to cattle that WE will then EAT !!!!! WTF ????? it beggers belief......oh and the chemical container had the hazard warning sign on it and it WAS CARCINOGENIC ( can't remember exactly which one it was now though !!) , maybe I have got it all wrong ??? it is perfectly safe and ok to use a known carcinogen on a feed that will eventually end up in US ..... perfectly safe, no way can it work it's way down to us ???? or even the cattle???? However , you must not buy a goji berry plant that was grown outside the EU !!!!!! It MAY ????? have some disease? Spray some of that bl**dy stuff on it then !!!!!....
cheers
Russ
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Now calm down Russ, you don't want to give yourself a heart attack. ;) The bad people won't bother you anyway, they don't like folk that stand up for decent principles ;D
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::) lol.... already had one of those Annie !!!! and I wasn't even throwing a wobbly then !!!!! As for the bad people ... I just do unto them as they do unto me ....ONLY BETTER :o ::) ;D
cheers
Russ
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as a thought does't the farmer have to leave a couple of metres beside the hedge as a beetle bank as part of his SFP cross compliance? If he does then he could get fined from defra for non compliance. Any defra or trading standards man would know
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It might take Defra up to 14 days to reply to my email. I had a reply from PAN (Pesticide Action Network), saying the same as some of you
Quote "Unfortunately, you have very few rights here, so the best thing is to try to build up a relationship with the farmer and reach an informal agreement. There is no legal obligation for the farmer to leave a buffer zone, or to notify you before spraying, but both of these actions would be considered good practice, especially as you have organic crops and livestock."
I am not holding my breath...As this farmer in question is not a person we can speak to (we are not worthy...), it will be the land owners. Just had an idea, as they rent out some land to a cattle farmer as well. I wouldn't mind any amount of sheep rather than conventional crops next to us....:&>
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Petrol bomb his tractor and batter the living s**t out of him???
what a complete W@%*ker - some people are just a waste of the oxygen they breath. Why can't people just be nice?
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Spraying by farmers is a problem I am well aware off. 7 years ago my neighbour decided to spray his barley on a very windy day. I had a mare and foal in the field next to his, she almost died and I had to fight just to get him to pay the vet bills. As i was outside I got covered and was ill for a year, coughing, chest problems. Doctor treated me for chest infections because at the time i did not put two and two together. We took pictures off our field at all the dead weeds and also lost plants in the garden behind the house. I sometimes wonder if thats the reason I ended up with cancer.
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Now thats what I would do Rhyan :o ;D .......there is just no talking to some people . Sadly I am turning into an old fogey though ......bout time I got a big stick ...oh !!! already got one .. a baseball bat...... ;D ;D Violence never solves a problem , I know....but it sometimes helps !!!!
Sabrina , I wish I could remember the name of the stuff the farmer I knew was spraying his barley with ..... that WAS carcinogenic !!!!!!! How the hell can they be allowed to use these chemicals ???? I don't even want to think about what I have been sprayed with in the past ....it is a wonder anyone survives at all really ......
cheers
Russ
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As i was outside I got covered and was ill for a year, coughing, chest problems. Doctor treated me for chest infections because at the time i did not put two and two together. We took pictures off our field at all the dead weeds and also lost plants in the garden behind the house. I sometimes wonder if thats the reason I ended up with cancer.
Have you thought of contacting a lawyer - you could perhaps get compensation if you have dates, times and photographs. Your vet would have these from his bills.
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My heart goes out to you, Sabrina. It is well possible that your suspicions are right. I know how ill my friend was and still is, she'll never be the same as before. I also knew a wine farmer in Italy where I used to holiday with my parents who sprayed his crops without a mask over years until he got cancer.
I just can't get over the fact that we have no rights against them, no protection from bl..... poisons. Something's not right here. :&>
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Perhaps its time we all stood up and shouted very loudly instead of being so damned polite.
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Hear hear Hilary's mum - it is time we all shouted, I for one am ready to scream the rooftops off, it is time this was all stopped
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We did think about talking to a lawyer but my doctor pointed out that time had passed and if we had thought at the time and had done blood test etc then maybe we could have been able to prove that his spraying was the cause of my illness. He treated us as if we had done the crime, his children were not allowed to talked to us and up until all this happened I looked after them after school for over three years. he made our life as difficult as he could we think with the hope that we would sell up and move but I have never backed down to a bully in my life. Just getting what had been used on the field for the vet to know what he was up against was a fight, he planned to go on holiday without telling us but I got in touch with the local company who supplied the stuff so he had to come clean. Vet was amazed that my pony came through it, she did nothing but drink water poor soul, this saved her.
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but you are very important Sabrina and the money may come in useful in your situation for medical care etc, when my father had cancer they told me exactly what caused it even though it was 15 years afterwards, I do not know your situation and do not mean to pry so excuse me, but there must be a way they can tell what has caused it, I do hope that you have won or are winning your battle against this illness
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Remember your doctor has only a very little training in law compared to a professional solicitor; he is looking after your health, so you should contact a criminal injuries lawyer.
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Just thought I let you all have DEFRA's reply, as you can imagine I am still miffed - no way out as we have no rights and a farmer we can't talk to and just worked his field for barley up to the last inch of our hedge...If you read this, Rosemary or Dan - would this be something that you might discuss in your Association??? :&>
>>As the law stands, a user of pesticide, such as a farmer or a grower, does not have to notify the public of their intention to spray, nor what product(s) they are using. Should you wish to know what has been sprayed, you may wish to approach the farmer directly and enquire as to what has been sprayed, although this will be on the goodwill of the farmer to tell you. The National Farmers Union have produced a leaflet entitled ‘The Good Neighbour Initiative’ which I have attached for your convenience.
Pesticide Approval
Pesticides are potentially hazardous substances and the United Kingdom has an extensive range of legislative and administrative controls over their approval, storage, marketing and use. These contribute to a clear Government policy of providing effective means of pest and disease control consistent with protecting the safety of people, animals and the environment.
Only approved pesticides can be advertised, sold, supplied, stored or used. It is because pesticides are effective against pests and diseases that they pose a potential risk to people and the environment. Applicants for pesticide approvals must show that their products are effective, humane and pose no unacceptable risks to human beings, the environment, wildlife and other non-target species before approval will be granted.
Therefore, all pesticide manufacturers are required to provide a wide range of scientific data, which is evaluated by scientific experts in Chemicals Regulation Directorate (CRD) or the Health & Safety Executive (HSE).
This data is then scrutinised by the independent experts of the Advisory Committee on Pesticides (ACP), who make recommendations to Ministers. When the Ministers responsible for pesticides are satisfied on the basis of this expert advice that the product can be used without unacceptable risk to people and animals and with minimal risk to the environment will authority to put it on the market be granted.
At present there is no requirement for farmers to leave an unsprayed area when spraying near houses. However the risk posed to people in the countryside from pesticide spray drift is assessed as an integral part of the pesticide approvals process. If the risk assessment is not satisfactiory then that pesticide use would not be approved.
The risk posed to people living in the countryside and to wildlife from pesticide spray drift is assessed as an integral part of the pesticide approvals process. The risk assessment takes into account various factors such as wind direction and strength, the application method, sprayed volume rate, droplet size and uniformity, the speed of any vehicle used and sprayer mechanism width.
Spraying Requirements
Everyone who uses a pesticide has a legal responsibility to ensure that all reasonable precautions are taken to protect the health of human beings, creatures and plants, to safeguard the environment and in particular to avoid pollution of water. Advice to farmers and growers on how to meet their responsibilities under the legislation is given in the statutory Code of Practice for Using Plant Protection Products. Please see the following weblink: http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/safe_use.asp?id=64. The detailed guidance on crop spraying is given in Section 4 Working with pesticides.
Although failure to follow the Code's guidance is not in itself an offence, it may be used as evidence against the user if prosecuted for breach of the approval. The Code includes specific advice to users to carry out suitable and sufficient assessments of the risk to health from the use of a pesticide before work starts. Users are directed to consider whether anybody might be at risk from exposure, to assess the potential for spray drift taking account of the application methods and weather conditions and are advised to give prior notice to occupiers of land or premises nearby.
If anyone believes they have encountered spray drift because a pesticide has not been used correctly then they should contact their local HSE office. The address and phone number for the local HSE office will be in your local Phone Book under 'Health and Safety Executive’. Alternatively the HSE Incident Line could also be able to provide assistance and their telephone number is 0845 300 9923. I have placed another link to our website which will provide you with further information should you wish to contact the HSE Incident Line, http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/approvals.asp?id=196.
The Wildlife Incident Investigation Scheme (WIIS) investigates the deaths of wildlife, including beneficial insects and some pets, throughout the UK where there is evidence that pesticide poisoning may be involved. The Scheme is used to monitor pesticide use after approval, so that product approvals can be revised if necessary. It also provides a measure of the success of the pesticide registration process, and helps in the verification and improvement of the risk assessments made in this process.
WIIS has a long association with the Wildlife Incident Unit at the Food and Environment Research Agency (FERA). They use their expertise to analyse a variety of animal tissues, including gut contents, vomit, faeces, blood, urine, liver, kidney and lung. Evidence from the Scheme can also be used to enforce legislation on the use of pesticides and the protection of humans, food, the environment and animals.
Where poisoning is suspected, a combination of field work, veterinary examination and chemical analysis is used to try and determine the underlying cause of death.
The Scheme operates independently, but on similar lines, in the four countries of the United Kingdom. 'Incidents Involving Pesticides and Animals' (pdf, 8 pages) explains how WIIS works in England - how it is organised, how to report an incident, where to report it and what happens afterwards. It is sent to people who report suspected poisoning incidents.
In Wales, WIIS is run by the Welsh Assembly Government.
In Scotland, WIIS is run by the Scottish Agricultural Science Agency (SASA).
In Northern Ireland, WIIS is run by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development.
I hope this is helpful. If you require any further information please contact us again.
Regards,
Andy Wright
* Information Services,
Chemicals Regulation Directorate,
L2/214 Mallard House, Kings Pool,
3, Peasholme Green,
YORK, YO1 7PX.
: Information Services
( (+44) (0)1904 455775,
6 (+44) (0)1904 455733,
8: [email protected]
Website: www.pesticides.gov.uk <<