The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: princesspiggy on November 29, 2011, 09:44:20 am
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im just wondering if there is a butchers etiquette i didnt know about. wev had our pigs booked in with butcher since they have been born. we had 3 lengthy conversations about them and the meat, the butchers knew the fact that they were "owned" buy different families. discussed the option of vacuum wrapping etc so i could post next day delivery if i wanted to.
now this particluar butcher (whom i have used before for lambs, and a friend uses for beef - which he sells on) doesnt have a website and doesnt promote rare breeds so im not in direct competition as such.
now the day before they are due to be cut up, he has decided he doesnt want to do it as im operating as a business??!!
we are using 2 butchers for 4 pigs, as only one is happy to cure them. so maybe it was that that upset him?
i have been open, my customers knew which butcher i was using as i was proud to use a good clean butchers (unlike my friend who is getting a "cheap" pig from someone else which is getting cut up by someone "dodgy and dirty" who is def a business as he has over 80 pigs and sells direct to butchers also.
was i suppose to hide the fact that i am selling the pigs? i didnt want a dodgy business with secrets to hide!
im a bit confused now so advice please??!!
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this highlights the problems encountered with third and even fourth parties being involved
there are very few butchers and slaughter houses that are honest and will cater for the small scale producer to stay within the law one or two pigs yes but once you get a bit bigger you are seen as a threat
also the distance to travel to get big pigs slaughtered as you have highlighted the heaviest that they take is 120 kilos if you want to kill heavier you have to go to st Andrews that is the best part of a day travelling and you have to do that twice
it is a great idea rearing pigs for others BUT THIS HIGHLIGHTS THE PROBLEMS THAT CAN AND IS ENCOUNTERED AND IS NOT FACTORED IN AND YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO RECTIFY :farmer:
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the pigs were 85 kg liveweight and i took the to abattoir, paid the killing, paid travel to butchers and butchers cutting costs. i want to stay legal so meat is being delivered straight from butchers as opposed to selling from my freezer, and sold 1/2 pig at at time
quote author=robert waddell link=topic=19872.msg186263#msg186263 date=1322561334]
it is a great idea rearing pigs for others BUT THIS HIGHLIGHTS THE PROBLEMS THAT CAN AND IS ENCOUNTERED AND IS NOT FACTORED IN AND YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO RECTIFY :farmer:
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what does that mean robert?
did i do something wrong - i do manage to upset people without meaning to :-[
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i don't think you have done anything wrong you cant be accountable for somebodies strops but you have to try and sort it out that is what i am referring to :farmer:
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iv bin to see the other butcher and he was soo friendly, soo helpful and soo nice! he also charges twice the price but id rather pay that and not be roared at!
this strike this is putting spanner in the works tho. i thought i was the public sector so not sure how that affects a private abattoir?
thanx robert x :wave:
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iv bin to see the other butcher and he was soo friendly, soo helpful and soo nice! he also charges twice the price but id rather pay that and not be roared at!
this strike this is putting spanner in the works tho. i thought i was the public sector so not sure how that affects a private abattoir?
thanx robert x :wave:
PP, It is amazing that some people stay in business. Butchers do split into two groups. Group 1 - see you as a threat, not realising that your customers do not buy from him, but from Sainsburys until you educate them that homebred is best. Butchers in group 2 realise that your customers are not currently theirs, and if they do a good job, your pork customers may buy their beef and lamb, as well as them performing a paid service that otherwise they would miss.
Luckily we have a good butcher here that we have used for years.
Private abattoirs have to have the State Veterinary Service and Meat Hygiene Service on site, both public sector, and if they strike the abattoir closes.
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I can't really help much (other than recommend the Aberdeen butcher on the SPKA website ;)) but I echo Oaklands post - there are just some awkward/cantankerous/downright rude folks about.
If he's still got your pigs I'd be asking him to forward them to the other butcher (or ask the other butcher to collect) and tell him that you're dissapointed to say the least.
Finding a good butcher & getting that relationship which benefits both and is based on trust is hard, but once you get it, it's great.
Hope you get it sorted soon :-*
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thanx guys, got it sorted now but was so proud of the pigs yesterday sending them away and was then so pooped off with the butchers negetive attitude. i wouldnt mind but theyd bin booked in for months.
the other butcher was so helpful and is happy for me to bring as many as i want so fingers crossed all will be well. he is more expensive and further way but sometimes trying to support local businesses slaps u in the face. in my mind choosing a good professional butcher is an asset to my business so im happy to let people know that i use them. i certainly not trying to get a cheap deal then pass it off as my own work which is maybe wot the other butcher thought. i dont know.
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Princesspiggy, I have encountered the same problems I booked my 4 SB's in well in advance for Christmas then the day he gets them we talk on the telephone and I tell him what I wanted I got the "oh well there are a lot of different items wanted etc.. I told him the fact of the matter is I booked these pigs in with him well in advance and his work load was not my problem, they will try it on every which way I find were I live it feel it is because I am a woman, another butcher I used said to me that he would have to re asses the price for the butchering bearing in mind he had 5 of my pigs, I did persuade him to stick to the normal price then on collection he said it again I told him that should the price of his butchering go up he will not be having any butchering business from me as I can get it cheaper elsewhere he was a bit gob smacked that I has said that to him. Be very aware, they think they are doing you a favour never mind that you are paying for the service. :pig:
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precisely, thats what he said - it was a favour. the way i see it, ur asking for a professional service and are paying the fee that they ask. if they dont want to do it, they dont book u in.
iv got a freezer full of heads, trotters, lights, livers, hearts and tongues tonight for the first time. the dogs bellies are full and im gona have to find some good recipes, never cooked those before - bar liver. the only thing we didnt get back was the blood...next time i hope. i did take a bit of perserverance to get it all but i dont mind annoying people ...lol
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iv got a freezer full of heads, trotters, lights, livers, hearts and tongues tonight for the first time. the dogs bellies are full and im gona have to find some good recipes, never cooked those before - bar liver.
same here - please share the best recipes! :)
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PP at the abattoir I use you've got to wait (with a food grade, lidded container) on the day of slaughter to get the blood back.
I'll check my wee pork receipe book for offal dishes & let you know if there are any :wave:
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PP at the abattoir I use you've got to wait (with a food grade, lidded container) on the day of slaughter to get the blood
how much blood do u get?
thanx
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From two saddlebacks I got five litres. Much more than enough unless you have long queue of black pudding customers!
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One point that has not arisen in this discussion and which may have influenced PP's first butcher is that meat that is being resold (rather than just for your personal use) has, by law, to be butchered in a licensed cutting plant under veterinary and MHS supervision. Now this law is largely ignored but butchers are aware that any Trading Standards Officer has the power to prosecute should he choose to do so.
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I had read that too but also that there was a (not how sure how official) derogation where a proper butcher is used and you are only selling locally (eg not via internet or mail order to ANother)? Not sure if this is a myth.
Otherwise its an easy and cheap way for the govt to stop small farmers/holders having stock, it's bad enough with the lack of abbatoirs let alone when theres no butchery available. Gives the market for meat lock stock and barrel to the supermarkets.
Our nearest abbatoir is 90 mins drive away and they recently doubled the butchery charge to £40 per sheep regardless of the size. At that cost for a sheep worth £30-40! it is not feasible, when slaughter and inspection and diesel costs are on top!
Kind of wishing someone would set up a mobile cutting plant but not sure how that would work with the inspection part.
<sighs deeply>
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Blimey! Thats a bit steep. I cut up my own sheep. I have a nephew who is a Master butcher and he showed me how, but maybe your local butcher will show you.
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i cut my own pigs too if its just for us, but to sell on i use a butcher. each butcher i use have their own shop on site so surely they are passing all standards? the carcuss is delivered straight from abattoir.
slight twist to the tale now - the first butcher kept to his price. the second butcher who was charging TWICE the price anyway, then charged an extra 25% on top ...hhmmm....how much do u pay for a smile???
the first butcher said he will cut for me again as long as i dont mention the selling part?? so still confused!
both butchers are excellent in what they do, but it was nice getting the loins cured which only the 2nd would do.
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The butcher I use does charge twice the pork butchery charge for anything that's getting cured. 80p per kilo for pork, £1.60 a kilo for cured.
So if it was a 50Kg carcass and I was having half of it cured, I'd effectively be paying for 75Kg worth of pork charges - hope that makes sense lol!
Maybe that's what the second butcher has done ? Or maybe he just thinks he can get away with it :-\
I've never had anyone quote a price then come back to me with an extra bit added - what was the extra 25% for ? If he's not already given you one, ask for a breakdown of costs (or invoice for your records) Sometimes, when you're a girl they adopt a kinda mechanic attitude (lots of teeth sucking and 'don't worry yourself pet' looks) you've got to be a bit assertive (verging on being a pain, but with lots of apologies :D) til they realise you're not 'playing' at keeping pigs - it's serious, it's your business and you need someone who'll behave as proffessionally and with the same level of care & high standards you do.
The butcher who'll cut for you, as long as you don't mention selling is confusing me ? Are you registered with environmental health for selling your pork ? Maybe he's worried that if you're not he'll get into trouble - it's very bizzarre ??? I think I'd be doing a bit more digging before sending any more to him ;)
The only advice I could offer would be to talk to local folk who keep pigs and find out who does theirs. Also talk to Cheralynne Pieters at Quarryhead Fine Meats (Mintlaw area) - I'm sure she's put in an approved cutting room and would either do it for you or maybe let you use the space ? Her details are on SPKA site ;)
Keep going til you get a butcher who'll do the job, at a fair price and without all this mucking about - you've really got to have a good working relationship with them :thumbsup:
Karen :wave:
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The enforcement of this rule for small private sales is very light, and typically needs significant transgression before TS get interested (but of course there is always the exception!).
It is a particularly puzzling rule when you first come across it.
Abattoir -> Butcher -> public = legal
Abattoir -> Cutting plant -> you -> public = legal
Abattoir -> Butcher -> you -> public = illegal
So where is the risk in the last one that isn't present in the first two? ie if butcher is ok, and you're ok, where does butcher to you ADD any further risk.
Clearly not the butcher, as he's allowed to sell direct to the public, so if his processes were risky, adding you into the chain does not make it worse or better, he is already selling to the public. Clearly you are not the risk in itself, as a cutting plant can give you the meat to sell to the public.
The answer lies in volume. The State does not want qualified butchers creating large "chop shops" without the state ensuring that they are cutting without risk. The argument is the larger the operation, the more supervision is needed across the whole plant, and the more the state should be there to oversee it. If for instance you had 10 butchers of the same size in 10 different shops and one had poor processes, only a tenth of the public buying from them would be ill. If you had one large butchery of 10 butchers, the poor processes of one would infect all, and all their customers would be affected. You may or may not agree or like the state interfering thus, but that is how it is.
Allowing butchers to cut for people to sell on (ie become wholesalers) allows them to get bigger quicker, hence the reason for the rule.
The "derogation" quoted by lachlanandmarcus doesn't exist, but many TS take a view that whilst selling "privately" to family and friends does constitute a "placing on the market" it does not constitute a "public" sale - a public sale being considered as one where you may not know each buyer eg one where you turn up at a market stall, have a sign on your gate, or advertise.
Simply moving meat from you to granny is not something that many TS's consider as needing their heavy hands, but if they have had a bad day or argument with 'er indoors, they can still be a pain, hence why PP's butcher is saying that him cutting for you as customer is perfectly legal, what you do with it afterwards is your affair and he doesn't want to know.
However if you're advertising, or going to farmers markets, the cutting plant route is a better option to stay well within the law.
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so whats the difference between a cutting plant and a butcher? is the cutting plant attached to the abattoir?
appreciate advise here... :)
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Whilst cutiing plants can exist standalone, the ones smallholedrs/farmers are likely to come accross will be attached to abattoirs.
But that does not mean if it is attached to an abattoir it is automatically a cutting plant.
The difference will be whether an inspector from the Meat Hygiene Service is present when the meat is cut. If so it is a cutting plant, if not it is a butchers.
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thanx oaklands, i understand now.
who on here is using a cutting plant instead of a butcher then?
thanx 4 everyones advice :-* :love:
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Our local abbatoir has a cutting plant and will butcher and pack to your requirements. I suppose that's safe enough to sell to folk? :-\
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our abattoir has a cutting plant (iv bin researching - lol) but i never realised and no-one told me. i dont know if they do it privately, will have to find out....
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the first butcher kept to his price. the second butcher who was charging TWICE the price anyway, then charged an extra 25% on top
my mistake, it was a delivery charge. :-[
we tasted the bacon today it was sssoooo gud. dry cured and sweet and salty. last time (a few years back) a different butcher made our bacon and it was yuk and brown. this butcher made it perfect.
next time i will try it myself tho... getting braver each year ..lol ;D
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mmm, that bacon is making my mouth water
Sally
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All these rules and regs that everybody has to try and remember I my self are worried now, I thought that if you don't handle the meat yourself you were ok :-\
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All these rules and regs that everybody has to try and remember I my self are worried now, I thought that if you don't handle the meat yourself you were ok :-\
The rules are not greatly applied, and if people are collecting from your butcher or he is delivering you could get into lots of great semantics as to whether you were the one selling the meat with your butcher merely the delivery boy, or whether you were a "butchers agent" getting him orders, taking money and keeping an amount for yourself. This is why TS are generally loathe to get into this area, which does nothing for public health in any case, and they have much better things to do.
The "don't handle the meat" bit is more about food hygiene and the regs around that, these would apply whether you use a butcher or cutting plant. Again we get into "private sales" vs. "public sales", the former being private provision to family and friends, the latter where you have signs up and start to sell at the gate or at markets, when you would need to show food hygiene certificates, and may need chilled vans, commercial grade storage, with thermometers and recorded charts etc. etc.
However don't start panicing - unless you are "commercial" and providing you are taking sensible procautions (eg not leaving meat in back window of car on hot day) it is highly unlikely that you would come to the attention of the authorities, and even less likely that they would take any action.
PS Can you imagine a french farmer being approached by Trading Standards ;D
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PS Can you imagine a french farmer being approached by Trading Standards ;D
Oh heck ! That would be interesting :o :o :o
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Curing bacon is very easy. I cut the loins into suitable lengths to suit my slicer, put a weighed amount of curing salts into a large plastic box, put the pieces one at a time into the box rubbing the cure well into all the nooks and crannies, then I double wrap it in cling film. Then I wash out and dry the box, stack the pieces in it in the 'fridge, and keep it there for about 9 days, turning every other day to let the juices flow over everything. At the end, I unwrap the pieces, rinse under a running cold tap and leave out to dry. When dry they go into the freezer for about an hour to firm them up, then get sliced and vacuum packed. Dead easy and very good.
For hams I make my own cures, but for bacon I buy commercial ones including the pre-smoked variety (even though I have a smoker!!!)