The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: daveh on November 18, 2011, 05:56:42 pm
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I have been reading the Defra publication entitled 'A guide for pig keepers' dated October 2011, available on their website. On page 7 dealing with pig id, it states that an eartag must have the letters 'UK' followed by the herdmark. However, with both tattoos and slapmarks the requirement is for herd number only without a preceeding 'UK'.
Does anyone know why there is a difference in the requirements?
I recently bought two OSB weaners for fattening and they will be slaughtered before they are 12 months old. They have plastic eartags showing the herd number and pig number but no 'UK'. The breeder told me that these tags would be OK right through to the slaughter house. Assuming the tags are heat resistant, is this true?
Regards,
David
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David, if your piglets are kept outside those tags will indefinitely come out so it will be worth getting some of your own, when I started with pigs all the wieners I purchased were already tagged and as they are reared outside all the ears were ripped but the tags getting very muddy and just tear through the ear, I always tag before slaughter now and yes the plastic ones are fine during the killing process. :thumbsup:
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You've got to make sure they have YOUR herd number on them when they go to slaughter. This can be either done by using a metal tag, stamped with your herd number or a slap mark on the shoulder (again with your herdmark)
The difference with the tags and the slapmarks/tattos is probably due to cost and change to existing equipment, I think the requirement to have UK is a fairly recent change ??? It's easy to add an extra couple of digits on a tag, but ear tatto pliers and slapmarker shave a set amount of spaces and don't leave room for UK.
Hope that helps,
Karen
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it is just another example of how contradictory some of the requirements ( laws ) are for pedigree breeding they have to be done at weaning we also use the button tags and do not get them ripped out
at wishaw slaughter house that both Karen and myself use it makes no difference what method of id is used they remove it tattoo or tags metal or plastic the ear is cut off slapmarked they skin anything that does not go in the scalding tank a waterproof paper tag ( same as is used on trees )is all that ids your pig :farmer:
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Have to agree with the above, you'll soon go mad if you try to understand or apply logic to civil service rules.
Couple of points to reemphasise
Legally you must apply either a slapmark or tags of YOUR holding before they go to slaughter, in practise slaughterhouse's don't care as they have no responsibility to check that the herdmark is yours, but the authorities can fine you and condemn your meat if they find it is not correctly marked. You take the risk if you don't have your herdmark on them.
On plastic vs. metal, some abattoirs will only accept metal tags (as they don't know which will survive the scald tank), and indeed some only accept slapmarks, so check with your abattoir first.
On the UK part, pigs being exported they need UK. IE "No person may move a pig off a holding for the purposes of intra-Community trade or export unless it has an ear tag or tattoo in its ear, in either case bearing the letters “UK” followed by a herdmark and a unique individual identification number..". However within the UK you are correct that a tag must have UK, but a tattoo does not - why? Think HH is right, cost of changing was probably behind it, but as I said at the beginning don't try and understand the logic !!
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Thanks for all the replies.
I will contact my slaughterhouse on Monday and ask what id they accept. Whatever id they accept, do I read it right that the existing tag will have to be removed? Or can the pig have two ids, the breeders and mine?
How do you physically remove the tags? They are being kept in a traditional Victorian sty so are not outside where they are likely to self remove them!
With the previous couple of pigs I raised, they were kept on a friends holding with his pigs so used all his id right the way through the process and had his slapmark at slaughter.
With the current pigs, I am keeping them on another friend's farm. My friend does not currently keep pigs although he did keep a couple of porkers about 12 years ago. He asked that everything be done in my name. On acquiring the pigs, the breeder gave me the paper AML and I filled in my details as haulier. I used my friend's holding number as the destination.
I have tried to get a herd number from the AHVLA office but they told me that they could not give me one as I did not have a CPH number of my own. I was advised that I would have to acquire my own CPH. I pointed out that my holding would consist of one pig sty in the midst of another holding but was told this would be OK. And so it has proved. I contacted the Rural Payments Agency , explained the situation, and they have now issued me with a holding number. I will be contacting the AHVLA office again on Monday to get a herd number. I will also be asking them if I have to fill in another AML to 'move' the pigs from one holding number to another.
This all strikes me as being bureaucracy gone mad. I thought the whole point of ids was traceabilty and quarantine in the case of disease. With my friend and I having seperate holding numbers, technically standstill periods will not now apply between our holdings.
Regards,
David
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The fun of the rules.
On ID, no you don't have to remove the current tag, just add your own just before slaughter (no point in doing it earlier) - in fact it is illegal to remove a mark under regulation 22 of PRIMO 2011 "No person may, unless authorised by the Secretary of State, remove or deface an identification mark.". Not sure the secretary of state will want a letter from you asking if it is ok !!
This is why it is generally better to buy weaners with just a temporary ID, as otherwise the abattoir has two tags to read (or tag and slapmark that differ) and match against one number on the paperwork. Not a real problem, but just tends to annoy the abattoir workers !
On your holding no. - yes I suspect that you would need to complete an AML2 to move the pigs between holdings even though the pig is not physically moving. You will also need to start a fresh movement book for the new holding no. and show the pig moving out of the old movement book. This does not by the way stop you taking it immediately to slaughter. It is a grey area as to whether it would prevent you selling (or giving it) live to anyone else for 20 days (ie moving it form your holding), as the law states the standstill applies to moving pigs between "premises", rather than between holding no.s , but unless you are planning this, would not worry about this.
Finally yes, you are right that standstills will not apply to your holding if you friend moves livestock, and visa versa, provding you load and unload directly on your holding ie drive to your holding and do not unload the animals on your fiends holding and walk them to yours. In the latter case you create a move onto your friends holding, and then he is on a standstill, and you cannot move your pigs onto your bit for 20 days. That's the rules, please understand that someone sat in an office in Brussels writes this stuff, which is then gold plated by someone in a similar Defra office. I suspect neither have visited a farm, or handled a pig.
Having said that we did have movement records in 1948, to quote from my Young Farmers Club Pig Keeping booklet "It is necessary to keep in ink or indelible pencil a records of all movements of pigs in a book that the local policeman may examine. This book must give the details of the date and place of purchase of all pigs bought in, and must also show the date and place of all sales."
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Having said that we did have movement records in 1948, to quote from my Young Farmers Club Pig Keeping booklet "It is necessary to keep in ink or indelible pencil a records of all movements of pigs in a book that the local policeman may examine. This book must give the details of the date and place of purchase of all pigs bought in, and must also show the date and place of all sales."
BH remembers the local bobby being the one that checked movement books (sheep and cattle)
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movement records are not a new thing they have been around for a longgggggggggggg time
if we did not have computers we would still be working with a book for recording movements :farmer:
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just to confirm - for scotland?
birth notified meat pigs off to slaughter can have a tattoo/slapmark with your herd number only? no individual number? or holding number?
how do u use a slapmark?
thanx
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a mark and slap it ;D
it is like a tattoo but you slap it on the shoulder alright if the skins are left on no use if the pig is skined :'( :farmer:
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just to confirm - for scotland?
birth notified meat pigs off to slaughter can have a tattoo/slapmark with your herd number only? no individual number? or holding number?
how do u use a slapmark?
thanx
Correct - slapmark OR tag.
With slapmark, you slap both shoulders, with tag just one tag, you can put it in either ear.
No indiv ID (yet!) and yes it is your herd no. NOT your holding no.
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thanx
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Well, it all seems to be bonkers to me........
I phoned the AHVLA regional office to get my herd number now that I have a CPH number. I explained the situation and was told the number that had been issued was wrong and I should have been given a special number beginning with 7 as a 'landless holding'. However, for simplicity I was told I could keep the number I had been issued. Phew.
I was then told I could complete another AML to 'move' the pigs from my friend's holding to mine and send the forms to my local authority. I pointed out that on their own guidance notes it said to send the forms to Stoneleigh. After checking this was confirmed. I was correct and this was news to them. Obviously they don't read their own guidance notes. I asked what id my pigs should now have and was told that additional eartags would be needed with my herd number. If I had further questions I could ring the 'Defra Livestock Identification Helpline' whose number is in their guidance notes. Asked if they could supply AML forms but they didn't have them.
So I rang this number and asked what would happen if I sold my pigs on. I was told a third set of tags would be required. I asked whether there would be space on the ears and whether this raised a welfare issue but was told they could not comment. And this from the 'Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency'. So much for animal welfare! I also asked about the need for the UK on the id. The 'expert' said it was all very confusing, nobody knew why the way it is. Most likely an eartag without the UK would be OK but they could not put that in writing. The guidance notes state that for a tattoo 'UK is not needed'. For a slapmark 'The use of UK is voluntary'. I asked what the difference was between these phrases but was unable to get a coherent reply. On trying to seek confirmation whether I should complete an AML I was told they didn't know but I should contact the MLCSL eAML2 helpline. Queried whether this was the right place for an enquiry about a paper AML but was told to contact them anyway.
So contacted the MLCSL and was told to complete a movement form and send to them. I asked if they could supply blank forms, they said no, contact your local authority animal health officer. So I contacted the local authority who said they do not supply the forms but I should contact the county council trading standards department who have them. I now await the forms arrival.
I find it amazing that such sparse knowledge is endemic with everyone associated with pig movements.
Then it was the turn of the slaughterhouse. They said a slapmark, tattoo or eartag was acceptable. I asked whether a pig marked with an eartag not having UK on it would be rejected and whether they thought a second eartag would be required. I was told that as long as the pig had id and it matched the paperwork then the pig was traceable. They thought most unlikely that anyone would be bothered about the lack of second tag bearing my herd number, or the missing UK. I was overwhelmed. At last, somebody speaking some sense.
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IF anybody in 'officialdom' had consulted users at ground level (keepers, markets, slaughterhouses) when drafting the legislation I have a feeling things would be a bit clearer - til then red tape reigns ;)
But I know what you mean about nobody knowing anything (even though that's supposed to be their job :o)- what hope have the rest of us got ::)
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Dave,
When you have a system which is :
Dreamt up in Brussels
Argued over by 17+ competing state interests, until compromise (ie watering down and confusion) is reached
Gold plated by dEfra (with the emphasis on Environment), and handed to...
..Legal eagles who have never met a pig
who create 20 separate pieces of legislation that pig keepers need to adhere to (ignoring numerous H&S and general farming legislation)
which are then administered by
Defra and...
The Rural Payments Agency and...
Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency and....
Trading Standards and..
Meat Hygiene Service and...
Food Standards Agency and...
Meat and Livestock Commercial Services and...
British Pig Executive...
it is obvious that a single co-herent consistent view will arise, which everyone will know - isn't it?
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Well at least you kept BT (or whoever is your phone provider) happy - what is your phone bill after this marathon???
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Anke,
I only posted a condensed version of all my conversations.
To give an example: For some obscure reason that I never ascertained, the AHVLA also wanted to know if I kept any other livestock. I told them I keep rare breed chickens as a hobby. I said I had already registered my flock with the GB poultry register back in April. Despite this, the location of where they were kept was required. I managed to satisfy them on this despite not being able to provide a postcode. I explained that the post office were unwilling to deliver to my shed in the middle of a field. They asked if they were kept for egg production or raised as meat birds. I repeated that they were (speaking slowly with slightly increased volume as if speaking to a foreigner) HOBBY RARE BREED CHICKENS and were kept as they look nice. Any eggs produced (I wish, haven't seen anything ovoid shape for weeks), were eaten, the surplus cockerels also being eaten. On being asked how many chickens I kept, to the disappointment of the enquirer who obviously hoped I had thousands, I replied about 45. I have the registration certificate in front of me. All this information in minute detail is already in their possession.
So the phone bill is even bigger than you imagined!
Regards,
Dave
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Oaklands, perhaps with some slight cynicism, said:
>When you have a system which is :
>Dreamt up in Brussels
>Argued over by 17+ competing state interests, until compromise (ie watering down and confusion) is reached
>Gold plated by dEfra (with the emphasis on Environment), and handed to...
>..Legal eagles who have never met a pig
>who create 20 separate pieces of legislation that pig keepers need to adhere to (ignoring numerous H&S and >general farming legislation)
>which are then administered by
>Defra and...
>The Rural Payments Agency and...
>Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency and....
>Trading Standards and..
>Meat Hygiene Service and...
>Food Standards Agency and...
>Meat and Livestock Commercial Services and...
>British Pig Executive...
>it is obvious that a single co-herent consistent view will arise, which everyone will know - isn't it?
Is this an example of the joined up government we have all been hearing so much about recently?
Seriously though, thanks very much for the info you posted. I do not how I would get on without you and the others who have contributed to this thread and the previous threads on this subject. If only the powers that be understood it half so well.
Thanks,
Dave
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David, if your piglets are kept outside those tags will indefinitely come out so it will be worth getting some of your own, when I started with pigs all the wieners I purchased were already tagged and as they are reared outside all the ears were ripped but the tags getting very muddy and just tear through the ear, I always tag before slaughter now and yes the plastic ones are fine during the killing process. :thumbsup:
JUST TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT SLIGHTLY....If the tags are put back in t eir ears when gilts then the tags will generally stay their. I notch my tags so that the number is always visible. Just use a small tag and use a button on the inside of the ear. You can also change colours to keep the year in mind. This does not help with your movment but we have to use a slap brand only nothing else is allowed. On the left shoulder if borne on the farm and....... the right if born on some one elses farm.