The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: sabrina on November 11, 2011, 11:27:35 am
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Having been giving Rascal my Border Collie I decided to go onto the Amazon site and buy a book. Understanding Border Collies by Barbara Sykes. Book arrived yesterday afternoon and I spent last night reading. I find it very interesting, its more to do on how the collie thinks and what to expect of your puppy through to old age. I can see already that Rascal is very clever. At 9 wks of age he knows that if he sits quietly when I am making his food he gets it quicker. That taking him outside is for him to pee before playing and when I place him in his bed next to ours it is for him to sleep. He only goes in the puppy pen if he has to be left in the house while I am out. I am still trying to get him to understand that the cats are not playmates, Barnaby has given him a smack twice so he has been more wary of him but Jacs still runs away. He has a mad hour before bedtime when Jake and he play chase round the room.
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Glad he's settling in well. Sounds like he is going to be a great companion. :)
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Great stuff, are you going to work him?
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I don't have the knowledge at the moment to work him but I plan to speak to my friend David who is a farmer on how I should go about it. I trained my German Shepherds the same way the police do so I see no reason why I cannot train Rascal and I am sure David will keep me right. he has lots of sheep but lost his collie last year.
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Good name :D I love that Barbara Sykes book :)
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Great stuff, are you going to work him?
Hey, fantastic excuse to get some runner ducks for him to practice with!! ;D
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Good luck Sabrina - please do share any pearls of wisdom that work with Rascal - hoping Zip will led a hand (paw) with the sheep but I'm in the a similar position - beginner, and - german shepherd did emergency rescue training - only to fail as loved people not other dogs!!
PS Zip does love rounding up my call ducks - when they get fed up they fly back to their wee pond - win win as far as I'm concerned
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Hi :wave: - nice to hear Rascal is doing O.k :D
I too have a young border collie which I hope is going to make a useful working dog on the farm,but at the moment we seem to be a bit in limbo :-\
"Meg" is so keen to get to the sheep :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: -she becomes frantic with excitement,barking pulling etc ---- I suppose this is normal for a 9 mouth old? I am trying to stay one step ahead of her all the time!
I believe she really needs to be a bit older both physically and mentally before we start serious sheepdog work and at the moment basic obedience in short daily sessions and the opportunity to circle a batch of lambs about twice a week is all she is doing in her early education
Has anybody got any comments or recommendation as to when to start a dog on sheep?
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As far as I know ( and I may be wrong ) most farmers take the pup out with an older dog as soon as it is able but on a long rope. Rascal started collar and lead training yesterday and today he has been taken into the paddock with the two geldings on his lead to see what he made of the ponies. Nothing so far has bothered him. He is still being very good among the chickens and our two ducks but I expect that will change soon enough. I already see him using his eye when Jake is running like a mad thing in the field. With Zip being that little bit older I will be very interested on how he comes along, at least you have the sheep and goats we will get lambs next year but at the moment its ponies, chickens, ducks and the two pigs. The pigs just look at him.
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Has anybody got any comments or recommendation as to when to start a dog on sheep?
Hi Tilly
An experienced sheepdog trainer can start a collie on its training as soon as it is showing any interest in sheep, but you really do need to know what you are doing, especially with one as keen as Meg sounds!
Do you have a trainer who trains handlers near you? I'm lucky to be near Derek Scrimgeour; he helps a lot of people start their young dogs. I would certainly recommend getting a mentor for your first time - and so long as your mentor is okay with Derek's methods, there's a lot of really useful footage in his DVD The Shepherd's Pup. Otherwise hopefully your mentor can recommend other books / videos for you.
Cheers
Sally
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--Thanks Sally, I am following Derek Scrimgeours methods..... already have"talking sheepdogs"the book, and training secrets of a hill farmer- DVD both really good.
I have been to sheepdog training classes with my first dog gypsy so not entirely novice but will take Meg when she is a little older and get some professional help.
I thought you all might like to see some pictures.........
(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/PB136712.jpg)
(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/PB136715.jpg)
(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/PB136716.jpg)
(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/PB136721.jpg)
..... she is a "live wire", but keen to please ,so fingers crossed we will form a happy working partnership.
look forward to seeing how Zip and Rascal come on....
Tilly and Meg :wave:
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Meg looks like she's coming along just great, Tilly!
If you haven't seen Derek's The Shepherd's Pup DVD, I do recommend it for where you are - it is a very detailed, lesson by lesson guide to the development of all of the necessary skills and commands from early exposure to sheep to being ready for work on the farm. I found it a tremendous help - it's much more specific and detailed than the Hill Shepherd one.
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What a lovely collie Meg is and you can see by your photo's that she is very keen, I am sure she will make a great working dog. ;D
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Rascal went to the vet the other day to start his injections. Not keen as soon as we went into the place. While i was waiting a lady came out with the most beautiful red and white Irish Setter almost pulling her over in his rush to get to the door. Once she got control she went to pay her bill. I said it was unusual to see one around here and she said it was unusual to meet someone who knew what he was. While we were chatting Rascal who was sitting on my lap was busy growling away at the poor dog. The vet made friends with Rascal quickly by giving him treats which he was so busy eating that the injection was done and he was none the wiser. In 2 wks time he gets his 2nd and his microchip which I am sure he will notice. Its an 18 mile round trip to the vet and he travelled very well so i was well pleased. He wants to be with me all the time and makes a huge fuss if he can see me but not get to me. ( I shut him an old hen run while I put the ponies out, for his own safety but of coarse he does not see it that way ) Once it is safe and he is quite again I let him out but i am sure the whole neighbourhood must hear his protest. House training is a hit and a miss, we have the puppy pads but he does not always use them and if I do get him out in time he gets lots of praise. sure it will all click in his brain one day.
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If you'd been nearer Inverurie I'd have said that might be my pal with the red and white. She has a young boy, he's had his jabs though I think. That's a long way for your vet - is it through choice of vet or is that the nearest? Long way in an emergency! Sounds like they are worth travelling to though.
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Zip was micro chipped on his 2nd Jab visit and didn't flinch - when I saw the size of the need I sort of regretted saying yes - but he was a brave wee boy and was more interested in a finger to nibble!! Started our propar classes and did ok - found the 2 older lab. pups a bit vigorous but knew 'people' were friendly so hide by a few different legs - the actual lesson part went well but even though we've been practicing he still won't lie down - sort of rolls up in a ball!! Think I'm going to need help on that one - sits very nicely though!!
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Get him sitting, then offer him food (or a finger :D) and move it towards you, at floor level, away from him, so you 'pull' him from sitting to lying. When you've got him in an approximate position, give your lie down command. The idea is to associate the body posture with the command. I have to say Skye developed the funniest bottom shuffle to start with and I couldn't carry on for laughing - but we got there in the end :D
Next stage is to give the command from sitting, with your hand pointing to his nose - as you say 'down' or whatever, move your hand swiftly down so you're now pointing to where his nose now should be - if that description makes sense?
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Thank you jaykay - off out for another lesson in half an hour so we'll give that a go - I was told to put the food between his front paw's but as I say he just ends up in a ball - giving the german shepherd her treats last night I realised I trained her fine - perfect from sit to lie down so I guess I'll get there with Zip - don't want to get shown up in class!!
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It will be exactly 1 year tomorrow since we brought our bc Scout home - it has taken the year for her to calm down enough that I think we can start training - from all the dvd's etc we've looked at it would definately be easier to train a pup with an older dog who knows the ropes (this is our first dog). We still take her through the sheep field on a lead - I did let her off with our new sheep a week ago and one of the castlemilk moorits (who jump around like giselles anyway) promptly jumped over the dyke into my farmer neighbours field in fright. We couldn't get her back and had to go into his field the next day and set the dog off the lead again to make her jump back over - she did really well standing still while the poor sheep scrambled over the wall - she was frightened of our soays last year though - they would stamp at her and go for her, our pygmy goats go for her big time but she is undeterred at present, we'll see how she fares in time. The hens and the muscovies peck her nose. She's lovely but I must admit after bringing up a family, I don't think I'd do the puppy thing again (sorry Scoutie :'()
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I realised I trained her fine - perfect from sit to lie down so I guess I'll get there with Zip
I'm sure you will!
The difference I found between GSDs and BCs is that the GSDs do as you tell them and do it well. BCs can do as they think you're wanting, before you've thought of it yourself! By which I really mean that BCs are so smart, they anticipate and read such tiny signals, so you can inadvertently teach them the wrong things if you don't have your wits about you.
They, like all dogs, are also quite good at training their owners :D
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Oh how I agree with you there - Zip see the box with treats and sits!! If only I was 20 years younger and my brain was a little faster - but will try - if nothing else he's a bright spark in my day, a joy and a laugh to have about. The two pet BC's we lost this year were never really 'officially trained' they just got used to our way - which may have taken longer but were wonderful dogs - now making me sad thinking of Tess and Blue but they had very happy life's and really that's all I wish for Zip - but please keep sending adivce
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if nothing else he's a bright spark in my day, a joy and a laugh to have about
This made me grin to read it - and made me go and tell mine that they are my bright sparks too ;D
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Hi everyone :wave:
One thing I did find out when I was learning how to train my first sheepdog gypsy is how important it is what sheep :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: you start with.
At training classes -the sheep used for dogs just starting are" well dogged" by that I mean sheep used to being worked by dogs.They have learned to stay in a group and not to scatter and stick close even to the point of following the handler, this in turn allows you the best change to get the dog and sheep in the best position to successfully achieve a manoeuvre e,g come bye, making learning easy and allowing your youngster the best chance to get it right!
Tilly
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Good tip, Tilly - but there is a but...
The sheep quite quickly get trained too, so start to anticipate what you'll be getting the dogs to do. I used to approach the 'training paddock' with the pup and see the sheep run up to the top of the hill, back to the middle, through the two hurdles back to the middle again - and we hadn't even entered the field yet! :D
Which is why you will often see 5 or so sheep advertised as suitable for sheepdog training... They're no longer useful where they are as they know all the excercises! :D
But you're absolutely right, the sheep need to be calm, completely predictable, and most of all, think that coming to you is their best option when under any pressure. Then you know what the sheep will do, you know you can keep them safe, and you can concentrate on telling the trainee what it's doing.
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Hmm,
so our daft 1 year old bc and a bunch of jumpy native soays and moorits will all take a bit of time then ::) ....we'll keep practising ::)
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sally that reminds me off a neighbour that bought a working sheep dog the seller demonstrated the dog working excellent just what he wanted got it home diddly squat it was the sheep that were trained the dog just ran at there back :farmer:
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sally that reminds me off a neighbour that bought a working sheep dog the seller demonstrated the dog working excellent just what he wanted got it home diddly squat it was the sheep that were trained the dog just ran at there back :farmer:
I've heard that story a number of times. In my experience, it's usually the handler... ;)
Seriously, some collies will work for pretty much anyone, but even the very flexible ones take a while to bond with a new handler. It's unrealistic to buy a dog and expect it to work immediately for you the way it worked for the handler who demonstrated it to you - or even to work for you at all, at first. What is being demonstrated is the dog's capability to work with a handler to whom it is bonded and who knows how to handle it.
BH had to buy a trained dog a few years back when his only collie unexpectedly died in the night, just before lambing time. A nearby farmer had a bitch in training with the local sheepdog trainer and said BH could have her if he wanted; his own need was not so urgent and he could have another one at a later date. We saw her, she seemed fine, we brought her back to BH's farm. (I didn't live here then.)
A few days in, BH asked me to see what I made of her, he couldn't get her to do a thing. Within 10 minutes I had Come Bye and Away, Lie Down, That'll Do, and Walk Up. Not great, weak on the sheep, not good flanks, but responding to the commands and working the sheep. Thing is, I've been trained by handlers who trial, I know how they command the dogs and hence how our local guy had trained this bitch to respond. BH, like most farmers, does things his way - and Mist didn't speak his language yet.
By mid-summer, BH had her doing what he needed, and now, they're a real team - and I can't get her to do a thing! :D
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Rascal started puppy class on Friday. due to being ill on and off for the past month he had only been on the lead 3 times so i had no high hopes of him doing well. Started off trying to hide under my chair. Once on the floor he walked better than I thought, did a sit right away and a recall so i was most surprised. i expect that as he gets used to everyone he will bring out his true naughty self.
We had grandchildren here for Christmas and he was a star so well behaved, they loved him.
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I was back with Zip at class on Sunday after 'icy drive' and 'christmas' break. He did the in and out of poles really well to my total surprise, really enjoyed playing with his pall a husky pretty much his size - but is not too keen on being passed around class and won't really take food/tip bits from anyone else but overall a good class and as soon as he got in the van he was fast asleep!!
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don't worry about him not taking food from anyone else. He's a collie, they don't get more one person than collies! And if you want him to work then you need to be confident that he will work for you alone and not decide to visit next door for a play with the kids when you are half way through a job. Its rather frustrating when they do that !! Glad he's doing grand all the same though.
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good to hear on the progress of Zip, Rascal has too much brain power. he can open doors does not let himself out but to come back in. He climbs over the field gate which is across the back garden to keep dogs in not him. runs to his pen at meal times before I have even started making up their food. Sleeps in our bedroom beside Jake but has tried his very best to get in bed with us which is a no no. Loves his ball and Jakes also Tanya's runs about like a mad thing trying to collect them all. I now make him sit and wait to give the others a chance to play too. One thing about having him, life is never boring. ;D
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.......IT`s nice to hear how the youngsters are getting on :)
Meg is really enjoying the sheep work on the farm – she has almost taken over the old dog Gypsy`s duties :o, and although be really excitable and strong willed, we are progressing with training and I think she is starting to listen to me! ::)
Here she is helping me move some ewes ……(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/PC316883.jpg)
And I think Gypsy is really appreciating not having to do all the” leg work” as she gets stiff these days. :'(
(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/dogsonquad.jpg)----poor old “gyp” :love: Just look at her face!:------ she gets really fed up with the puppy at times!
Tilly :wave:
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My old German Shepherd Tanya has the same look with Rascal, i may sure she gets peace when she wants it.
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The old dog does look fed up doesn't she?
;D
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... well yes, there is certainly some rivalry between the two of them,but Gypsy has the previlege of sleeping indoors and gets extra cuddles then ;)