The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: lunanlife on November 10, 2011, 11:37:10 am
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I don't know if anyone has heard about this. I find it totally shocking that the dog is to be put down just because the owner made 1 small mistake.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-15660455 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-15660455)
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Maybe it would have been a different ruling if it had been a poodle and not something that looks like 100% pit bull terrier?
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I saw it on facebook :-\
There HAS to be more to this story that meets the eye.
We hear about dogs who attack (& kill !) livestock escaping the strong arm of the law, so I can't figure out why they would take such extreme action, unless the dog has been making a nusience of itself ??? A dog chasing a cat is like a cat chasing a bird....natural instinct ::) Are we going to start putting down all the cats who catch birds ?
Oh, the justice system in this country ::)
Sally, it's a staffie and although they do get a bad rep. I've met several who are lovely, sweet dogs ;) and none that are nasty :thumbsup:
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I think the dog / owner has previous.
It's not necessarily that they are nasty but these dogs have the capacity to do tremendous damage - they're jaws on legs and their physique has been developed to inflict damage on "prey". Beats me why folk keep them - well, I know why a lot of folk keep them but that's another matter.
I find it heartening in a way that the law is being enforced, given the number of threads we get on here from folk who's livestock are worried and nothing's done. It's so inconsistent.
We had a staffie living near our old place - we caught him once with a hen in his mouth (owner sent flowers and was very apologetic), second time the dog killed 13 hens (owner paid compensation and was very apologetic. The police weren't interested), third time I caught him before he did any damage (owner very apologetic, police asked me what I wanted done and when I said I wanted the dog destroyed they said that would be a shame for the dog.)
I do feel sorry for the dog, since it's the one that will suffer. Unfortunately, we aren't allowed to euthanase owners.
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I find it heartening in a way that the law is being enforced, given the number of threads we get on here from folk who's livestock are worried and nothing's done. It's so inconsistent.
On the matter of inconsistency, I am a supporter of Worldwide Horse Welfare and SSPCA, so get their newsletters. I'm always amazed at the level of inconsistency in the penalties applied to those convicted of animal cruelty or neglect, particularly in relation to bans on keeping animals. I appreciate that the newletters will not carry all the details of every case, but surely anyone convicted of deliberate animal cruelty should be banned from keeping all animals for life.
Neglect is a different matter, I think, as quite often folk convicted of neglect are either mentally ill or have learning difficulties - in which case their pets might be very important to them and it may be support and education they need rather than punishment.
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A good friend of mine has two Staffies, and a Staffie x boxer. Its bedlam at their house, and I always end up on the sofa being licked to death. On the serious side, these are big powerful dogs, and can do some serious damage. I know they have fought amongst themselves a few times, and my friend said they do show how nasty they could be, and also that they have jaws of steel (when she has tried to open their mouths to get them off each other!)
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I reproduce below a comment from Bobby on the Dundee Courier's website.
"DC Thompson at their best, are not telling the full story here! This dog has attacked 2 children, 2 adults, & 3 dogs (one of which had to be put down), as well as the cat that the story seems to be focused on! The owner is incapable of owning such an animal, and admitted so in court, hence verdict"
If Bobby's comment is accurate, then opinions may be revised?
Unfortunately, the press never let the truth get in the way of a good headline.
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I have greyhounds and whippets. A cat wouldn't stand a...well.. a cat's chance if they saw one whilst off lead (which they never are except on our own land.) Would you class a whippet as a dangerous dog?
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Sally, it's a staffie and although they do get a bad rep. I've met several who are lovely, sweet dogs ;) and none that are nasty :thumbsup:
I'm Staffordshire born and bred - and when I were a lass, a dog like that was not a Staffie it was a Pit Bull Terrier. (I've got all the old Observer's Book of Dogs from way back so I can prove it too! :D)
Now I know nothing personally of any Pit Bull Terriers, and I do know and have known many delightful Staffies, so I wasn't meaning to suggest anything other than that the judge may have thought, "That's a Pit Bull, it's been off on wanders before, it's done a whole lot more than just chase a cat, I'm going to save us all a whole load of grief here."
On the subject of chasing cats, yes most dogs chase cats. Not many savage them ferociously, though. That's either breeding or training - and in either case, as a cat lover, I have to think the judge maybe has a point - if the owner will not constrain the dog, then sadly it is the dog that will have to pay the ultimate price for its owner's negligence. The alternative is a lot of innocent family pets paying.
Loads of posts while I had this 'in production', so it sounds like it probably is a bad dog with bad owners.
I have greyhounds and whippets. A cat wouldn't stand a...well.. a cat's chance if they saw one whilst off lead (which they never are except on our own land.) Would you class a whippet as a dangerous dog?
Sylvia, that's the point - you know you have killing machines so you take great care about when and where they are loose. This owner clearly doesn't and hasn't.
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[Sylvia, that's the point - you know you have killing machines so you take great care about when and where they are loose. This owner clearly doesn't and hasn't.
Yup, as full details have came out it would seem that (yet again ???) it's not a bad dog, but an iresponsible owner ???
Sally - I don't doubt you on the breeds but this first picture is what I imagine when I hear pit bull terrier (the boxer of the dog world ;) :D) instead of staffordshire bull terrier (the bottom one)
Karen :wave:
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well i would not like any one of the two hanging of my arse
and if that were the case after i had done the dog in the bloody owner would get it as well
and on the subject of dogs and there brain dead owners twice in less than a week the brain dead have let there dogs of the lead to run onto the public highway when i have been driving
how funny when a dog does something wrong either runs /wanders onto the road bites children/adults or kills other animals it some one else that is to blame and not the dog or owner :farmer:
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We had a staffie cross lab/lurcher tht no one wanted. She came to us age 6 wks and I trained her the same as our other dogs. She could be a very loving dog but age 3 we had her put down. Reason, she started attacking our other dogs almost biting myself and grandaughter. She attacked Tanya who is a German Shepherd of good size and build. There was no need for her to do this and nothing we did would stop her aiming for Tanya's throat over and over. Jake the Jack Russell got in her way and she tossed him aside as if he was nothing. Tanya was badly bitten and in shock. Lizzie was a muched loved dog but we had no doubt that we had to put her down. If she done this with the grandchildren around god knows what would have happened. I will never have another.
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its definitely the owners fault......
our cat was killed by 3 dogs that the owner had OFF the lead on our land. (its a bridleway) they ran into the enclosed garden and she never made it through te operation.....
police said they couldn't do anything unless we said we felt we were in danger.
the women walking the dogs was initally appologetic but then said it was the cats fault.
Mx
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Woah, the first dog in HappyHippy's post is an English Bull Terrier NOT a pit bull.
The English Bull Terrier has a long history in the UK and, like the Staffie, has a reputation of being a great family dog. Check out www.thebullterrierclub.com (http://www.thebullterrierclub.com)
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its definitely the owners fault......
The owners are at fault but we've bred dogs to display certain behaviours that can be positive or negative, depending on the circumstances and the dog's physique.
TBH, I think we get too het up about the humane destruction of dogs - a good clear out of dogs not fit to be in society wouldn't be a bad thing, so long as further breeding was also stopped.
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What a balanced argument in this thread. I am straddled on the 'wall(s)' as always.
The bottom line is, people should know there own animals and make safe any dangerous situations (unless its a first time occurrence).
I only have little dachshunds at the mo, but they are both aggressive over food, the boy more - he has drawn my blood a few times (I shouldn't tease him really, but we is both boys lol). So I give him grub when he is away from any public and tell people not to play with his grub or bone. But what would happen if someone fed him food on our campsite?
Bring back dog licenses - and for certain breeds, check the owners.
When you put into perspective how many sheep you would have to sell to match the profit from a pedigree 'dangerous' dog litter. Then look at the legislation and checks between the two? (I know one is destined for the food chain and one isn't but, I dont think you should be able to still in this day 'buy a dog as a christmas present'- , more control is needed)
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[Sylvia, that's the point - you know you have killing machines so you take great care about when and where they are loose. This owner clearly doesn't and hasn't.
Yup, as full details have came out it would seem that (yet again ???) it's not a bad dog, but an iresponsible owner ???
Sally - I don't doubt you on the breeds but this first picture is what I imagine when I hear pit bull terrier (the boxer of the dog world ;) :D) instead of staffordshire bull terrier (the bottom one)
Karen :wave:
The first one looks very much like some of the ENGLISH bull terriers I have judged!(Sorry, Rosemary, didn't read your post first - that's exactly what it is. I have attached a photo of a pit bull, and you can see the resemblance to teh Staffie)
Like Robert I wouldn't want to tango with any of them! And I am extremely careful when judging. ::)
However, we are not discussing individual breeds here, we are discussing one incident in one dog and one owner's lives. It appears the owner has allowed the dog to roam on numerous occasions, and it has gone for other dogs - I'm not convinced the story of one of them having had to be euthanased is correct though. My opinion is that the dog should be removed from that owner and she should be banned from keeping dogs for a prescribed length of time and taught how to look after and have the responsibilities of dog owning, and that the dog should be sent for retraining and rehoming - there are a number of charities who would take this on.
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Hi Karen :wave: The top picture is the Bull Terrier - it used not to need any further description, but I suspect now we have to call it the English Bull Terrier - Bill Sykes had one called Bulls Eye in Oliver Twist.
Kennel Club breed description and picture gallery:
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=3063 (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=3063)
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/breed.aspx?id=3063 (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/breed.aspx?id=3063)
Oh, just caught up the rest of the thread - thanks for the pics, Annie, saved me the trouble of finding any more. :)
I don't know how long you've been judging them, Annie - but the Staffies that were about when I were a gal were a lot less like the Pit Bull than the breed has now become. To my eyes, this evolution has occurred since the early 1990s (ie, the Dangerous Dogs' Act) and is a result of it being made illegal to own an un-neutered [American] Pit Bull Terrier.
They used to be shorter in the leg, shorter in the nose, slightly less broad from cheek to cheek, ears slightly less upright and square-on; nearly always brindle or black; white only on the brisket, a little on the paws allowed, frowned upon in the midline of the face and I think disallowed elsewhere - certainly not whole body white whether or not with coloured patches; I've got a feeling tan was not allowed, it certainly wasn't usual. Am I right in remembering a Miniature and a Standard Staffie? I'm going back to the mid-Sixties/early Seventies, when I learned my dog breeds.
To me, this is more the type I learned:
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=f4651418-f546-4b16-8cf7-9e1b87150bfa (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=f4651418-f546-4b16-8cf7-9e1b87150bfa)
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=5967da59-e7b8-452b-a57d-56627af40c2c (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=5967da59-e7b8-452b-a57d-56627af40c2c)
rather than:
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=89230f9c-d299-41d9-ab03-90a1ab1493d2 (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/picturelibrary/display.aspx?id=89230f9c-d299-41d9-ab03-90a1ab1493d2) (although the colouring on this one is more 'old-fashioned')
I do have all the 'Observers' Books from the period, but they're in a box somewhere... ::)
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Hi Sally, do you remember a weekly or monthly publication that could be bound into volumes called Hutchison's Encyclopaedia of Dogs? I have that - it was given to my late husband by a work colleague away back in the 70s after his wife died. Obviously the plates in it will be of the old style of all breeds. Because it's bound I don't think I can scan them though. Will have a look.
I've been judging Gundogs a long time but not terriers.
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Hi Sally, do you remember a weekly or monthly publication that could be bound into volumes called Hutchison's Encyclopaedia of Dogs?
Noooooo... it must've been Scottish only, or I'd have had it! ;) :D I would be interested in what the Staffie plate and desc look like and say, if you do have a look.
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I'm sorry, Sally but I've looked right through all 7 volumes and there is no Staffordshire bull Terrier listed. It is all in alpha order but the plates seem to have been bound at various random places so I had to look through them all. I wonder if it was called something else in the 1920 to30s?
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In my opinion SBT's have diverged into 2 distinct groups these days - the KC std registered one which is smaller, squarer etc and a longer legged version such as the one I think which is pictured originally which I hear many people refer to as "Irish Staffies".
The DDA refers to "pitbull types" I believe. The problem is in the identification - and how "experts" identify the dogs.
The DDA needs amending to take account of deed not breed and emphasis putting onto responsible dog ownership. There are far too may dogs needing new homes, including in my experience a very large proportion of which are SBTs or their crosses. In my opinion it would be irresponsible to rehome a dog with history of serious aggression to people - especially as there are just far too many ones available which are lovely. Whilst I dont have a staffie myself I know a number of people who do and they are loving family pets. However, even the best family dog of whatever breed can attack and kill a cat - owners are responsible for that ultimately.
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When man started to domesticate the wolf, he identified certain behaviours and developed them for his own purposes. The only group of dogs developed to kill are terriers. Terriers are bred to kill "for fun" - even the wolf doesn't do that, he kills to eat.
When you then cross the "kill" instinct with a dog that is jaws on legs, then you're asking for trouble.
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im amazed the dog has to be put down , as when a neiughbours dog jumbed into our garden and killed our cat with them stood there watching nothing was done we was told as it was just a cat if it had been our dog/child or livestock that was diffrent so maybe there was something else to make the judge rule this way on this case, i also go with its never the dogs fault but the owners
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my observation from working in the rough housing schemes in Glasgow paisley and Edinburgh the rougher the area the bigger the dog the druggie or money lender would get laughed down the road if he went prancing about with a Yorkie or poodle toryglen they were openly training there pit bull type dogs in the swing area
there was a programme on the TV about south end on sea every dog was a pit bull type cheap pups or a lot of enforcing needed :farmer:
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When man started to domesticate the wolf, he identified certain behaviours and developed them for his own purposes. The only group of dogs developed to kill are terriers. Terriers are bred to kill "for fun" - even the wolf doesn't do that, he kills to eat.
When you then cross the "kill" instinct with a dog that is jaws on legs, then you're asking for trouble.
Gonna differ with you there Rosemary, running dogs were bred both to chase and kill. Most hound breeds were/are bred to hunt and kill. Some terriers were bred to kill small game but others to chase game from below ground. None of these animals were bred to kill each other however. Pit Bulls were only ever bred for fighting.