The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: Violetsprite on October 29, 2011, 12:34:08 pm
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Hello everyone - i've just stumbled across this site and love it as a source of advice! I've had goats for about 14 years but only small numbers and generally taken in as older goats looking for new home. Just this week i have collected 2 x 4 month old gorgeous girls - one looks BT other looks Saanen x but they are sisters and mum looked like a x - smaller than my saanen but not as small as pygmy & cream in colour. They are adorable & extremely friendly having had some bottle feeding to supplement the mum who wasn't a great milker apparently. Questions i have are - firstly - i have put them in a barn together but separate from my 2 older girls (a Saanen with horns & English without - both 10 yrs +) - they have been walked around the field with them but my Saanen is a bit of a head butta - so question is how long should i supervise meetings or am i worrying too much and should trust that the kids will quickly learn to keep out of her way? Secondly - they weren't registered - apparently because they were between defra forms ?? Anyway i have the holding no where they came from so should i tag them with this no. or my own? Any advice much appreciated - thanks.
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I take it the person you got them from " Delivered " them to you so you were'nt responsible for any missing paperwork or tags, so personaly , in a hypothetical situation like this I would be inclined to stick my own tags in as they are only 4 mnths old , at least then you will have some sort of record when you are inspected.
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The law requires them to be tagged with the no from the holding of birth.... the AML1 form should have had their individual numbers on so there won't be a problem to get tags with these numbers .
The previous owner has, as we all know, broken the law regarding this matter so be very careful otherwise you could be the one with the fine for incorrectly tagged kids. I do know of a case where this happened & the new owner was fined £1000 per offence.
There really is no such thing as 'between Defra forms' !!!!! This is nearly as bad as selling a horse without a passport saying it is to follow.
As I daid before, be very careful.... The AML1 form which you send to Trading Standards must match the kids movements from the holding of birth.
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RE supervising them while in the field - given that you have an older (herd leader) girl with horns and I presume these kids have been disbudded it would be advisable to supervise for a while until you are sure they do not fight and the kids have taken the message and avoid the older ladies....
It could all work out very well or it could take a while - just play it by ear.
I cannot advise you on the legal transport matters though and you can definitely not register them if the breeder is not prepared to do it for you (and s/he would need to either own the male or have a service certificate etc etc). If you are keen to register them, then offering to pay the registration fees on behalf of the breeder may be a good option. And then the breeder could als supply you with the appropriate tags... but I would be a bit suspicious if the breeder is not prepared to register them, as to what their parentage is and therefore what their potential could be.
However if you have older female goats no-one in officaldom would question the presence of kids with your herd number on their tags on your holding...
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Thank you for your comments - especially Anke - good points. I don't think there is anything suspicious with these breeders - i think they are just a bit naive - as perhaps am i - although obviously if i had bred them i would have found out the right thing to do . however they are not 'breeders' in any formal sense this was a one off intended to result in milking the mum which they then decided was too much hard work - bit of a laid back approach - but more due to laziness than an intention to mislead. I don't have a problem taking care of registering them hence asking for advice. Thanks again
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Wytsend is correct - please see my reply in your introduction. The breeders may be too laid back to have bothered with the correct procedure but this is not just something to smile and shake your head at - there are potential consequences, not just for you and them, but for all livestock farmers.
<<However if you have older female goats no-one in officaldom would question the presence of kids with your herd number on their tags on your holding...>>
This may be true if you have a billy, but otherwise you would have to falsify your records to show that either a billy had visited you, or your nannies had left the holding to visit a billy (and both of these movements would have to correspond with the supposed billy's owners records). You would also have to falsify your records to show the kids had been born on your holding. Were you to do this you would be digging yourself an ever deeper hole. Please don't follow that road but remember your responsibilty to the rest of the livestock industry.
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Thank you for your further comment. I have been in touch with seller who says she rang Defra and said she was selling 2 & keeping 1 and they told her not to worry until she received her forms in November ? So now what? I think the seller might be open to co-operation so would the best be for me to tag them with her nos. & get her to send the forms off?
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It's just occurred to me that the reason i was getting confused about 'registering' was that i had thought when you newly tag goats you had to send forms off - having only taken in older already tagged goats i hadn't had to look into this before but now i realise it is only for the AML1 form .
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I think I would contact the local animal health office at the council and explain the situation and ask for their advice. I know of a rescue charity that takes in livestock (pigs, goats and sheep) from time to time and they frequently have no identification. The local council have usually advised them to put their own tags in and to record the movements in their own book.
I also had a problem with a piglet that was found running in the streets a few miles from my home. Noone claimed it and I agreed to take it. It had no identification and no movement licence. I put it in my movement book and about a month later my book was inspected by the council. They were actually very understanding and issued a licence for its movement.
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Animal Health are the people to contact.... in turn they will issue a Movement Licence to Trading Standards.
BUT you must contact them ... if you don't... you will be the one that runs the risk of prosecution. Ignorance of the Movement laws is not accepted.... the last owner will have been only too aware of what they were doing.
If you don't make the necessary contact, your movement book/eartag numbers won't match up with the official records..... you won't believe how much info Trading Standards have about livestock keepers !!!!
Sorry to sound rather blunt but do you really want a hefty fine ?
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Hopewell - thanks lovely advice - i'm sure you are right that Animal Health will be understanding - thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Wytsend - thank you too although i don't feel as you do that the sellers knew what they should be doing... they are not breeders - & there must be plenty of people out there who have one or 2 goats and let them kid without having much to do with officialdom - wrong i know but still likely. Anyway i am inclined to ask for their help first and so have been back to them to explain & they have said they will get right onto it - so fingers crossed it will be resolved - however if i don't hear back by the end of the week i will contact Animal Health myself as advised - thanks again.
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. Wytsend - thank you too although i don't feel as you do that the sellers knew what they should be doing... they are not breeders - & there must be plenty of people out there who have one or 2 goats and let them kid without having much to do with officialdom - wrong i know but still likely. Anyway i am inclined to ask for their help first and so have been back to them to explain & they have said they will get right onto it - so fingers crossed it will be resolved - however if i don't hear back by the end of the week i will contact Animal Health myself as advised - thanks again.
My turn to be blunt ( :wave: :wave: :wave: hello btw!)
they should have known before they embarked on selling/moving animals. they knew enough to know they were 'between defra forms' so they should have known they cannot move animals without tags.
however i have before taken in animals that were tagged incorrectly, and a quick call to animal health will give you the info/best way forward.
it is too late imo for the previous seller to be able to do much unless they have the correct tags hanging around (in which case there was no reason not to tags them before they left).
in my case i was told to double tag them with red replacement tags with MY flock mark.
out of interest in my case the sheep were destined for slaughter so had slaughter tags in, but i chose to keep them, unfortunately they also had individual id numbers so werent correct slaughter tags ::) i cant order tags that arent my flock mark so red replacers were the easiest way around this. i suspect red replacements will be the easiest for you also but you must go by what animal health instruct.
i swear there should be a course run somewhere on 'how to speak fluent defra' ::) but i go by no tag, not paperwork = not coming to my holding.
have fun!
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Violetsprite... your faith in human nature is commendable but I hope for your sake that things work out. As Colliewoman said, the fact they knew about 'defra forms' tells me they knew exactly what they were doing & that they were breaking the law.
If Trading Standards choose to act in a way that you do not like i.e.... blame you for the movement taking place without the correct tags & paperwork..... you would be very upset. The next step would be a Court Room. Again sorry to be blunt but Officialdom in these matters has no feelings for individuals.
Because we all have to toe the line with regard to animal movements whether you have 1 or several thousand animals, ignorance of the law would not be accepted as an excuse.
NO ANIMALS SHOULD MOVE PREMISES WITHOUT TAGS or AML 1 FORMS.... it is inviting trouble.
Even a single pet goat requires an AML 1 form to change premises !!!!!!!! All the time those goats remain on your premises without the correct tags.... they are there ILLEGALLY... ownership has nothing to do with it.
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Can we please tone it down and actually be helpful to newcomers (to the forum as well as to goat ownership/transfer)?!
Violte came here for some advice - for example on how to integrate the young kids into her herd. Nobody has even bothered to answer that question, but everybody gets hung up on AML1s and tags....
We all know the rules and regulations to a different level - I would love to meet someone (even wihtin DEFRA) who knows it all.... and we all have been (possibly quite naive..) beginners at some point. Also I would bet there is not a single goatkeeper with more than a couple of animals that have ALL their goats tagged correctly all the time - I have a few with only one tag at any given time as ears keep getting infected, tags ripped out, ears split etc etc....
Violet - red tags are the easiest, especially if you know the original owners CPH or herd number as a reference. Animals get rescued without AML1s every single day, so that scenario would not be unheard of in your local Animal Health /trading standard office. You can order a small number of red tags (with yout own goat flock number on it) from wherever you normally order your tags, for goats they do not have to be EID, just two are needed.
How are your kids getting on?
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Thanks Anke - goats are absolutely adorable thank you - although it's been so cold i haven't had much chance to let them run free with the others but i have been taking them for walks everyday - accompanied by my 10 month old pup & 1 of our cats - it's a lovely scene! I've attached some photos. Thank you also for suggesting a bit of calm - luckily i've been around long enough not to be panicked by talk of court but i agree that as i had already said i would call Animal Health myself i don't think there is need for panic or indeed scaremongering (sorry if that sounds blunt ;) ;). Thanks for the advice about red tags - i will do this if necessary although seller came back with CPH & herd no. and has offered to supply correct tags so hopefully all will be well - you never know eh Wytsend - will this give you added hope for human nature? With regard to using red tags if this is necessary should these have my flock/herd no. or sellers & is it 1 per ear i.e. 2 per goat? Thanks again to everyone - this site is invaluable for info ... as well as an interesting for observation of personalities :) LOL.
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Sorry Violetsprite if I have been more blunt than you would think appropriate, but quite recently I heard of a similar situation to yourself.... Trading standards would have none of the reasons given, again almost identical to yourself... the people were in Court with a hefty fine of £5000 !!!!!!!!
I was trying to avoid the same situation..... I am very very glad everything is sorting itself.
The rules in my opinion, are worse than useless, often are ignored by the big boys but we, the small goat/sheep owners, are the soft touch and easy to deal with.
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There are stll some very naive animal owners around, when it comes to movement forms, ear tags etc.
Over the past few years I have taken in a fair number of goats from people who could no longer keep them for one reason or another. Over the telephone I asked the usual questions ....including are they tagged?
"No, they live in my garden" was the response from a number of goat owners.
One lady, had her pygmy billy escape, returned in a police van (bet they were pleased with the smell!) and he had no tag. She was later visited by "someone official" I assume this was Trading Standards. Fortunately she had the movement forms for the billy and adult female, the kid was born in her garden. They went away saying all was well. But .....what puzzles me, is only the adult female had a tag in. The woman had bought the billy, kept him, and was trying to give him to me along with the other two, with no tag in. Surely these "officials" noticed??
Needless to say, I insisted on the tags before they left her premises.
Same senario with two females - no tags. (fell out they said), but no holes in the ear. I have my doubts.
There are still people with goats and other livestock, not tagged. To be fair, if you have not kept goats before, and do not check to see the legalities (which you should of course) maybe it can be assumed nothing is required.
In the not too distant past, I kept goats, and no one knew they existed - they lived, and died on the farm, and were buried. Thats how a lot of people kept goats. There was no paperwork, tags or anything!!!
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Lovely pictures - and I love the scenery as much as seeing your menagerie enjoying their walk! Whereabouts are you? Gorgeous autumn colours, I can almost taste the lovely clean air!
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Hi SallyintNorth! We are in the beautiful Brecon Beacons. Do you have goats? The sheep farmers here think i'm bonkers but i love them. BTW no one has replied to my query about replacement tags - i'm holding on in hope that seller is going to honour an offer to send correct tags for me but if Wytsend proves right & i am overly optimistic about their goodwill then i will have to put red tags in. I'd appreciate a comment on whether the herd no. should be mine or sellers as i've read conflicting advice - thanks all.
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If the seller never assigned the goats tags, then you can't put their number on the red ones. So if that is the case then it has to be your flock number.
The tag companies are very good at knowing what to do in whatever situation you present them with, so when you ring up to order the tags, explain the situation to them and they will keep you right.
If on the other hand the breeder has assigned tags which are now lost, then you can order up replacements, with their flock number on.
The red tags are only to replace lost ones where you don't know the original number. But if the breeder has assigned tags then they should supply you with them.
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Hi
just curious - I'm surprised that anyone can order tags, even red tags, with someone else's herd/flock number on, don't you have to supply your CPH as proof of address?
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Hi SallyintNorth! We are in the beautiful Brecon Beacons. Do you have goats? The sheep farmers here think i'm bonkers but i love them.
Oh, well that explains the views then!
No, I don't have goats. But everyone here is impatiently waiting to hear that I finally have some Castlemilk Moorits - at which point all the other farmers around me will conclude that I have now gone completely round the twist. :D That's if the sight of me walking two collies, a hound pup, and five piglets in the pasture every morning, or herding the lambs into the sheep pens with two collies and five piglets, hasn't already convinced them... ;D
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Castlemilk Moorits have lovely fleeces.
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just curious - I'm surprised that anyone can order tags, even red tags, with someone else's herd/flock number on, don't you have to supply your CPH as proof of address?
I haven't ordered red tags for sheep, but I have ordered replacement cattle tags for beasts who originated on other holdings, and you always have to give your own CPH & herd number as well as the full number on the tag.
However the government database for cattle is held in full detail for every single beast, and there is no equivalent database for sheep.
Like you, PHB, I'd assume I would have to give my own CPH & flock number as well as the details on the lost tag.
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Castlemilk Moorits have lovely fleeces.
I am very glad to hear another spinner say that - a neighbour who spins has booked herself some fleece when I get some, but reading up about Bradford Counts and Staple Lengths I was beginning to think I was mistaken about it.
I have been told it's not the best fleece for a novice spinner, so I expect I'll have to be doing swapsies for a year or several until I gain some competence!
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Hi
just curious - I'm surprised that anyone can order tags, even red tags, with someone else's herd/flock number on, don't you have to supply your CPH as proof of address?
Yes you have to give your own number as well, so they know who you are. All the tag manufacturers seem to have access to a giant communal database of everyone, so they know who has been issued with which numbers. So if you asked for a red tag for a number which had never been issued to that original breeder - well, you wouldn't get them ;D When you phone for replacement tags, there are people at the other end of the phone - it's not a form to fill in - so you can discuss just what you need and they are most helpful.
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Thanks everyone! I'm grateful for the advice.
I think Castlemilk Moorits are beautiful too! I have one Soay that i took in from the RSPCA way back in 1998 and at the time she had lambed but it was no longer with her so i guess she was no less than 1 or 2 years old - which makes her 14 or 15 years old now. I have no idea how long they can live if they aren't bred for meat but she's certainly the oldest sheep that i know of around here.
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If you have your own sheep flock number you can order red replacement tags without giving the flocknumber of the animal you are needing replaced. It is actually quite prudent to have a (small) number of red tags on hand, as long as you refer to the old/new one in your own register. (of course this is only for non-pedigree/non-registered animals, as any pedigree registered ones will have to have their original one put back in...).
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Just for Wytsend i thought i'd add a final note to let you know that the seller is sending correct tags and even lending her applicator as i have never had to tag my older girls. Faith in human nature restored? Thanks again!
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Great news! :)
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Lovely pics Violetspirit - nice to see someone else has a nutty 'I'll follow you anywhere' cat - oh and one each ear for goat tags but as said not electronic yet!!
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That's if the sight of me walking two collies, a hound pup, and five piglets in the pasture every morning, or herding the lambs into the sheep pens with two collies and five piglets, hasn't already convinced them... ;D
Haven't they watched the film 'Babe' then?
Castlemilk Moorits have lovely fleeces.
I am very glad to hear another spinner say that - a neighbour who spins has booked herself some fleece when I get some, but reading up about Bradford Counts and Staple Lengths I was beginning to think I was mistaken about it.
I have been told it's not the best fleece for a novice spinner, so I expect I'll have to be doing swapsies for a year or several until I gain some competence!
I've not spun it myself as I was a weaver who could spin but my ex-OH, who was a spinner who could weave, loved it. You could always card it with another longer stapled wool to make it easier to spin. :sheep:
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Castlemilk Moorits have lovely fleeces.
I am very glad to hear another spinner say that - a neighbour who spins has booked herself some fleece when I get some, but reading up about Bradford Counts and Staple Lengths I was beginning to think I was mistaken about it.
I have been told it's not the best fleece for a novice spinner, so I expect I'll have to be doing swapsies for a year or several until I gain some competence!
I've not spun it myself as I was a weaver who could spin but my ex-OH, who was a spinner who could weave, loved it. You could always card it with another longer stapled wool to make it easier to spin. :sheep:
Yes, I think that's what people do. It's all greek to me at the mo, but I'm looking forward to learning...