The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: MooMoo on March 04, 2009, 12:30:07 pm
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Hi
I fatten 3 weaners every other year and have decided this year to grow as much of their food as possible myself. I have a vary large veg plot that can give them extras and I know I will have to give them some pignuts. I would like to look in to growing mangolds and betrave (sorry I dont know the english for that, but they look like giant beetroot cross swedes). I live in France, and it is the norm to give pigs out here rolled oats and milk, but this has worked out expensive for me in the past. Can anyone give me any advice. I want them to eat well, but for me to produce as much as possible.
thanks
manda
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Hello,
I was recently looking in to doing thae same thing a few weeks ago, I came across this site that sells old seeds.
The victorians used to feed a vegetable called mangold wurzel to pigs, its a member of the beet family and grows quite large.
Hope its helpfull.
http://www.thomasetty.co.uk/index.html
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I have three weaners in half of a substantial veg garden we planted last year. I took some veg and then let it grow wild....within a week they had decimated it, so I hope your planting to pick and add to feed :) The only veg the are unable to eat directly, due I assume to their young age is turnip, so I cut it into small pieces and they're happy enough. I'm soon to let them loose on the other half of the garden which has carrots, parsnips, some small swede and brussel sprouts...i'll let you know how long they take to clear that.
i did read somewhere that you should feed as normal for their age with pig nuts, and not count any veg you add...the more experienced might disagree. You can also add distillers at 1/3 of normal feed to pad it out a bit, you might make a slight saving by doing that. Hope this helps.
:farmer:
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Hello All,
As a rule of thumb always treat fruit & veg as 1/4 the nutritional value of pig meal. Make sure to up their feed during the winter months (for outdoor stock). Our adults would go from 6lbs to 8lbs of pig meal a day during the winter.
Cheers
Gavin
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Sausage and cash, perhaps dig up the parsnips first, as they are known to produce blisters in the mouths of pigs when eaten. It may cause someone to think F&M. Anyway best avoided if you can. HM
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Another little job for Saturday morning! :farmer:
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sorry :'( :'( :'(
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Dear, dear, dear.....not for me.....for my gaggle of little helpers! lol. It's better than the x-box, they just love getting their little hands dirty!
Morgan :farmer:
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I now have a mental image of smurfs digging up a veg plot :D
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oompa loompas! ;D
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Moo moo I think beterave (sorry cant spell it) are beetroot, beterave rouge are definitely the salad type beetroot. The ones we sow are for animals and they do grow. You could also try jerusalem artichokes. I am sure I read on here somewhere that they can be planted for pigs.
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Hi moo moo
Betterave fouragère is what we planted last year and we feed it to cows, pigs, sheep and goats but the pigs still need more protein - would jerusalem artichokes work because farine d'orge is so expensive;
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Just had a look at the ingredients of weaner nuts in the local co-op...a lot of the ingredients are GM! It has pretty much what i'm feeding them anyway so I think i'll continue as is but I need to give more protein. Anyone heard of eggs being used before? I've only heard of unhatched incubated eggs being (scientific studies show that "swine are unique in their ability to digest raw egg albumin"). Any ideas? As I want to get as close to perfect with the diet as I can without having to resort to Gm foods.
The pigs are currently getting rolled oats + barley, beet pulp, distillers, assorted veg, stale bread soaked in milk and apples. They seem very happy with what they're getting, but any constructive criticism would be appreciated.
:farmer:
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You could always try growing kale - marrow stem is probably the best variety - and fold the pigs onto them or just cut the kale and feed it ad lib. Sow at about 2kg seed per acre. Jerusalem artichoke is also very beneficial and a splendid looking crop.
JB
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Hi
So if I grown betterave fouragère (mangels), kale marrow stemmed, jerusalem artichokes could I cut out the oats (farine d'orge) that is costing me so much as I am seriously thinking I may have to give up with the pigs, but they are so lovely I don't want to, it just the cost :(
thanks for advice
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No because they need protein. pig nuts fed at 2 kilos a day contain 16% protein which is 320 grammes of protein (I think anyone less mathematically challenged please feel free to correct). They must have protein to grow. Eggs (which we feed large amounts of) do contain some protein, not sure about how much.
Can you find a local farmer (or not so local) from whom you can buy rolled oats, barley etc.?
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No unfortunately not and to feed them it is costing us 20€ per week which we really cannot afford, can I grow my own pig nuts? what are they exactly - sorry am being thick feeling very down with it all today as I love my pigs, plus we have a year old boar who just cant seem to get our sow pregnant as we were going to try and breed from her once before making final decision, she has come on heat and have put them both in a sty together but he belly rubs and nothing else!
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Sorry pig nuts are just the pelleted pig food all ready to feed. They are quite costly at 8.10 euros 25 kilos. Most people I know mix straights (oats, barley, mais and wheat) and then add vitamins. We always feed pig nuts for convenience. Although like you finding it hard to make ends meet and am considering buying bulk from local farm. Hope you dont have to give up your pigs. If boar is not doing the job have you considered AI?
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Hi Hilary's mum
Thanks for your advice. We have thought about AI but were hoping he would manage to do his job before going off to the abbattoir. We have put them both in a sty today (as she is on heat) and we are hoping! If not AI it will have to be.
Do you mean they give the oats etc unmilled?
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comfrey is about 20-24% protein of the dry matter , so makes an excellent pig feed and is very cost effective . Once planted ( bocking 14 only ) you can increase your own supply to what ever quantity you want, just by taking root cuttings and you will get about 2-3lb of comfrey per plant per cut and about 4-5 cuts per year. So you can get 8-15lb of feed per plant per year and you can plant them in rows 3' apart with 2' between plants . They are about 14% fibre and have plenty of minerals too : calcium 2.77 %
phososphoric acid 0.75%
potash 7.09%
iron 0.144%
cobalt less than 1 ppm
So along with rolled oats or barley and mangles and any other veg you have as well as grazing if available , you can feed pigs very cheaply as long as you don't mind the work of growing the feed.
Everyone will have their own method of feeding , but it is possible to feed virtually for free . You just need to have the comfrey planted and cut that in sections , as and when you need it , in such a fashion that it all gets cut 4 or 5 times a year before it flowers. Barley or other grains you can grow and will get roughly 1-2lb of grain per square yard planted. You can keep enough seed back to provide the following years crop too . The same with mangles , they can weigh from 5-15lb each and then keep in store till after xmas then fed , a few good shaped and sized ones left in a corner to go to seed will provide the seed for the following years crop. Food for thought so to speak ... ::) ;D :farmer:
cheers
Russ
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Thanks Russ, that is really helpful we will grow comfrey then, along with the mangels (we grew a load last year and did very well with them) and then just substitute the rest of the protein with less farine d'orge - should cut our bills by at least a quarter.
Thanks again
Nicki
whereabouts are you in normandy? we are near gorron in dept 53 are you near?
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hello Nicki,
I worked on a farm (years ago now) and they grew all the feed for their pigs and the cows and sheep too. We used to feed the pigs rolled barley or oats , depending on what they had plenty of !! , along with mangels and any other veg they had grown. The pigs always came upto weight fine . I don't know anything about farine d'orge ? is it not cheaper to just buy barley as either straight, and roll it yourself, or ready rolled ? I am in West Wales by the way ..lol
cheers
Russ
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rustyme, Can order comfrey Bocking 14 from Jim O' Connor at [email protected]. How should i add it to the feed? Dried and milled or fresh or what? Help need for what will hopefully be our first crop next year! Seems it will be very benificial to our poor soil too! Thanks for the heads-up.
Morgan :farmer:
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hello Morgan,
once you have the comfrey established and growing well , you can cut it and then just allow it to wilt , just an hour or so , and feed as is . I think it is a bit difficult to dry efficiently due to the thickness of the stems and the leaves, so is best to feed fresh after wilting . The reason for wilting is the leaves and stems have prickley hairs all over them , and some stock don't like it without wilting . It can give some people a rash if they handle it without gloves on . Luckily it does not affect me too much , makes my hands itch a bit , and my horses love the stuff wilted or the instant I cut it . If you planted root cutting roughly about now and in the next few weeks , you would get a fair amount of growth for cutting later on in the year . As long as it grew to about 24" or so tall , it would be fine to cut it . Just don't cut after about mid september, allowing the plant to build up a feed store for the winter. Give it plenty of manure and it will fly away , it will even cope with fresh chicken manure no probs. When you first start feeding it to any animal , just give it in small amounts at first , as sometimes they don't go for it too much . Once used to it though , they love the stuff. With bocking 14 , only plant it where you want it , as any small bit of root WILL grow into a large plant. It is however sterile , so bocking 14 will not spread by seed.
cheers
Russ
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Thanks Russ. Our weaners are between 9 and 12 weeks old. So plenty of time available, as they are our breeding stock, so they'll be with us for a good while :)
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Anyone know where one can buy comfrey in france please - I believe it is called comfrey but am not sure.
Thanks again for all the advice.
Nicki
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Another thing, sorry Russ am back again, but the vet and other people tell us not to feed the cows too much luzerne and mangel pulp, no more than 5 kilos per cow (although they did say 6 for the jersey who is thin), they have hay liberally but can we not feed them lots of vegetables as well as all this, only because she is thin it really worries us but on the other hand we are too frightened to give her too much because of what the vet said. If in the old days farmers used to just give plenty of what they had why can we not boost up their feed with lots of veg?
Thanks again
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Russ thats fantastic, always learning from this site. Brilliant thanks.
Nikki, dont know the french name for comfrey, however if you post on your local Anglo Info site someone is bound to have some.
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yes HM, I learn something new most days on here too....even if it is just a different way to do something . ;D
No probs Nicki,
I can only assume that the vet was referring to FRESH cut alfalfa (lucerne) as alfalfa hay/haylage is the main hay/haylage crop used in the USA for horses, cows and sheep !!! I know it can cause bloat in sheep and colic in horses , if they are allowed to graze straight off the field, but cut and fed as hay/haylage , it is just about the best there is . It is high in protein and has a good fibre content , can be cropped from 3-5 times a year, is very good for the land as it is a legume and therefore fixes nitrogen into the soil from the air . Therefore , it will fertilize the soil saving you having to buy nitrogen fert. in . As already stated , it is the main forage crop in the USA so there can't be that much wrong with it ? ::) ;D It is very deep rooting , so will bring up any deep down locked nutrients from the soil that other plants wouldn't reach. With the added bonus of helping with drainage and soil structure. Apart from feeding fresh , I haven't read or seen any information stating caution or any problems . I will look again , but I have looked into this deeply as I intend to grow this myself on a larger scale than I have already done . Oh and my horses are still alive and well.... ;D :farmer:
Mangels are a different matter really . Being a root crop they are mainly water , so that may be a reason why the vet said to curb the quantity fed .However , mangels were the main feed crop in the UK , for stock until , machinery was invented to cut hay/haylage/silage. UP till then it was grown on a truly huge scale. When the machinery became available to cut grass and grain , it was easier to do this than to dig up a root crop . This was just about the only reason why root crops fell from favour , nothing to do with feed value , just ease of harvesting. If they had invented a machine that made it easier to dig up and sort root crops before hay etc , then we would be using root crops much more nowdays . As long as they (mangels) are fed along with hay/haylage/silage, I can see no reason why they can't provide a very large part of an animals diet. Just think about it .... how many farmers rely on sugar beet shreds/pellets as a large part of their animal feed ? and sugar beet pulp is just the left over mash from the sugar producing industry , and the sugar beet is a very close relative of the mangel , in fact very near to being the same thing, just a slight difference in sugar content mainly. The main thing I would agree with is , that it is best to feed as varied a diet as possible. I am not saying though, that I know more than a vet !!! but many people these days (including vets !!) think that you can only feed animals on bagged food , produced in a factory , with all the basics needed for the animal in question ....well this is where I think they ARE wrong . The animal feed you buy in bags is just made up from straights grown on a farm , milled and mixed to create the bagged food in question !!! It also contains lots of additives and preservatives that I don't want in my animal feed , or my own!!! It all boils down to money again I am afraid . The feed companies want to have a complete hold on animal feed supply , therefore making more money , but people have lost sight of the fact that it has to be grown somewhere in the first place, and if you grew your own feed you can cut food costs down to next to nothing . You would also know that there is no poison in your feed and no GM either. Really it is very much like our food industry, everyday we are told of another food that will kill us or of yet another food that will save our lives !!!! Then next week it all changes round . Once again MONEY being the main player here. This all boils down to the main reason why I want to grow all my own food and all the food I give to my animals . So in my opinion , we can feed as they used to, all we would be doing is cutting out the big companies and middle men .
Sorry for rabbitting on , I could bore for the UK on this subject. ::) :o ;D
cheers
Russ
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Not at all boring . ... fascinating, thanks for the info
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http://www.lusern.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=144&Itemid=216&limit=1&limitstart=2
some handy info on lucerne on this link ....
cheers
Russ
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Thanks again Russ, what invaluable information, no not at all boring infact fascinating and as we read we sit here nodding and agreeing with you.
Am going to digest it all and will probably be back with more questions - sorry :)
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My hat is off to you russ, loved your post, especially the bit on GM. I went to look at the ingredients on weaner pellets and found that most of the ingredients were GM.
"With genetic engineering familiar foods could become metabolically dangerous or even toxic.” Statement by 21 scientists including the following, Professor Brian Goodwin, Professor Jacqueline McGlade, Professor Peter Saunders and Professor Richard Lacey.
Dr Andrew Chesson, vice chairman of European Commission scientific committee on animal nutrition, "Potentially disastrous effects may come from undetected harmful substances in genetically modified foods."
Dr Vyvyan Howard: expert in fetal and infant toxico-pathology at Liverpool University Hospital, "Swapping genes between organisms can produce unknown toxic effects and allergies that are most likely to affect children"
Dr Michael Antoniou, Senior Lecturer in Molecular Pathology at Guy’s Hospital says, "The generation of genetically engineered plants and animals involves the random integration of artificial combinations of genetic material from unrelated species into the DNA of the host organism. This procedure results in disruption of the genetic blueprint of the organism with totally unpredictable consequences. The unexpected production of toxic substances has now been observed in genetically engineered bacteria, yeast, plants, and animals with the problem remaining undetected until a major health hazard has arisen. Moreover, genetically engineered food or enzymatic food processing agents may produce an immediate effect or it could take years for full toxicity to come to light." Dr Antoniou recently warned MPs against believing there was any safe alternative to a ban on GM foods, "We should not lull ourselves into a false sense of security: we should not think that by regulating something which is inherently unpredictable and uncontainable it automatically becomes safe!"
Sober reading. Despite the extra effort i'm going to be 100% sure of what goes into my pigs....thay will, after all, be going into my childrens mouths.
As they say, information is power, but each to their own. I agree with you Russ that the feed companies want to have a complete hold on animal feed. With all the info flying around this site, and all the bits of knowledge that everyone shares, we should all be able to grow the majority of what we need and complement it with non GM grains etc.
God when I think of the beautifully packaged shite that is turfed out in supermarkets and sold at massively inflated prices...well it just makes my blood boil.
Morgan
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cheers Morgan,
it is nice to know there are others out there that feel the same....The feed companies are steering their way to what boils down to total control of the food supply . This isn't just a conspiracy theory whacko Jacko statement , but one which becomes very obvious when you look deeper into what they are doing . Grain, whether barley , wheat , oats or whatever, used to be grown on farm and either sold at market ,or fed to animal stock . Next years seed was always kept back from the harvest, and sown at the appropriate time. This could go on for a number of years before new seed was needed. However , with GM seed ,even non GM, named varieties, the seed will not be 100% viable . This is part of the GM modification . The reason for this is you are tied into buying next years seed from the company year after year ad-infinitum, handy little thing that . In a very short time they will have the world over a barrel UNLESS people like us keep the old varieties alive. It is already ILLEGAL to sell an old variety not on the seed list . Example: I bought some Square Heads Master wheat seed . It is an old variety of wheat from the 1880's grown for use as a thatching straw (it grows to 5 feet or more tall) . I had to buy it as chicken feed from the thatcher that sold it to me , otherwise he would have been breaking the law if he had sold it as either thatching wheat seed or even as just wheat seed .This because it has fallen off the seed list. I can only assume the reason they are doing this , is money ...I hate to think what other reasons they could have . I now grow only older varieties of whatever I grow , either grain or veg and have started to save all my own seed . The days of a guaranteed supply year on year , are sadly long gone. We now know beyond doubt , that THEY ? will not look after us , THEY ? are just looking after themselves £££££ . That leaves it down to US to look after OURSELVES and all the other people like us . This , without doubt again , is happening on this forum already . People sharing information and knowledge with like minded others . Selling purebred/pedigree animals to each other and as time goes by no doubt grain and veg seed too, as it becomes more and more expensive to buy elsewhere, and GM seed becomes even more widespread than now. It seems more and more likely , to me , that it will be people such as on this forum, that will keep our food as it should be and as we want it ...GM free .
cheers
Russ
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Russ you sound surprised that they are only in it for the money. I thought it was the norm. (For those at the top not for us smallholding types).
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As the old Indian proverb goes:
Only after the last tree has
been cut down. Only after the
last fish has been caught. Only
after the last river has been
poisoned. Only then will you
realize that money cannot
be eaten.
Cree Nation Tribal Prophecy
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That is really profound.
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lol...HM ,
I am not really 'surprised' , I know that money seems to be, the be all and end all, of a lot of western peoples lives, especially the big players (the more they get, the more they want) but what does surprise me, is the fact that now even at the stage we (the western world )have taken the world too , they still want complete control and even more money . Where do they think they are going to spend it all when the world dies of starvation and disease ? I suppose they will at least be the richest person in the graveyard !!! (thats if there are enough people to burry them). The proverb fits perfectly SaC !!!! To a degree it has always been this way , but in the last 20-30 years it has gone completely out of control in the UK . Yet the people that have caused the economic crisis STILL can't see what they have done. There are none so blind as those that will not see !!!! Hey ho ...... Not much I can do about it ? I will just keep on plodding along ...just wish I had more money .... ::) the things I could do then ???? ::) :o ;D
cheers
Russ
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Here here Russ,
I have to agree wholeheartedly with you on that one.
Money may not buy you happiness, but it makes being miserable a bit more bearable ! (so I've been told ;))
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couldn't tell you if it makes miserable more bearable because i am too miserable :( but seriously if i look at my lifestyle i realise how lucky we are, in the countryside, watching the lambs hopping and jumping, watching my huge old pig (who must weigh 400kilos) let a kid feed from her because her goatie mum is poorly, milking the cow, getting attacked by my gloucester old spots, slobbered on by the dogs - i would not swap the quality of my life for any thing - some money rather than no money (our current situation) would help reduce the sleepless nights, keeps officials happy but at the end of the day I am still lucky
sorry waffled on
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A friend from Uni used always say 'Money can't buy you love....but it can buy an awful lot of s*x'
Lol
:farmer:
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RE mangold wurzels, do you have to shred them to feed them to pigs? They had a lovely machine on Victorian Farm that did the very thing . I've fancied growing some for our pigs but knew nowt about them ( until I read Rusty's stuff -thanks)
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hi wolfie - just used to chop mine up into reasonable size chunks for the pigs - used to have to chop them much smaller for the cows
sausages and cash - that is not the reason i am so broke ;D
actually 4 kids, millions of animals (well okay perhaps not millions) and having blown too much when I first came to france has something to do with it, although in later years after working very hard, social charges seem to be the biggest reason....
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they do say that marriage is a great contraceptive! Where abouts in france r u?
Morgan :farmer:
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Hi Morgan
We are in the department of Mayenne, beautiful countryside (although not so sure today as it is very windy and pouring and we were planning to put the polythene on the polytunnel but perhaps not...)
Have a good day
nicki
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I dont know anyone either here (France) or in UK who has enough money for their needs. Those I know whose income increases spend just above that income. I dont know many who dont have sleepless nights over money. I am trying to become content with what I have, rather than yearn for what I dont have.
Which right now would be that I must be grateful for my leaking wellies as its raining rather than wanting a pair of decent ones that dont leak. I WILL be grateful for Hilary's piglets who chewed the holes in them in the first place. And I will delight in the mud that sucks them off making the holes even bigger as I pull them out.!!!
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Hi Nikki,
I used to live in Brittany a lifetime ago. Still miss France, it was a great place to live. Lucky You!
A very Jealous Morgan :farmer:
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Why did you come home?
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Hi Morgan
You are right it is a great place to live and we are very lucky. whereabouts are you?
Hilary'smum - what size feet are you we have umpteen wellies here that boys have grown out of you are welcome to a pair I come up to Saint Hilaire du Harcouet and Louvigné du Desert and Dinard reasonably often - anywhere near you?
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That is such a kind thought, am in Morbihan near Pontivy. Bit far from Dinard. AGain thanks. Its my birthday soon, am putting out large hints.
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you are welcome - hope your hints work for your birthday
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Why did I come home Rosemary...well that a story for a cup of coffee and a chocolate muffin! Lol
I used to live primarily in Dinan and St Brieuc. I've been living in cavan in Ireland since 1999. I was badly injured in a motorcycle accident in work in Dublin, and came up to my then girlfriends to recuperate....and never went back!
How many Kids have you got chickens? We have four bou#ys aged 9, 6, 2 and 11 mths. Great group of wee lads!
Morgan :farmer:
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Chickens if the hints dont work then I am going to stand in Gamme Verte right by the boot section and refuse to budge until "he" gets the hint.
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might see you there then hilary's mum as I need a wheelbarrow ;D
morgan 4 boys - eldest 21, then 20, then 17 then 11 - i am very outnumbered in my house :)
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I used to live primarily in Dinan and St Brieuc.
I had a penpal in St Brieuc a long time ago, but lost touch so never got to visit him. However, I have a French Breed of dog so go to France quite often - we will be going to Gujan-Mestras this year - near Bordeaux. Late hubby wanted to move to France but we never got around to it.
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Hi
stumbled on to this website, what a great bit of luck. Just got our new lot of weaners, 3 saddlebacks gilts and am looking for cheaper natural ways to feed them. We are not an organic registered smallholding but I don't use chemicals. I have just ordered some mangel, swede and turnip seeds for feed for the pigs. the comfrey sounds a great idea and will try that also. I tried buying organic pig grower but the cost is crazy on a small scale. We will also feed them last years potatoes that we grew.
About seeds and saving I read it is illegal to save your own GM seed even if you wanted to as monsato and other GM companies have the copy rights to them!!!! And now they are buying up all the veg seed companies.
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Who would want to save GM anything? ;) Not me that's for sure. ::) I have a 'thing' about genetics - I don't understand them, and anything I don't understand, I don't like. ;D ;D ;D
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I have read and read this thread and it's really interesting.
The thing is - we have decided to have two pigs every other year as two pigs every year is too much meat for us (and we wouldn't want to keep a pig on its own each year).
That gives the pig area time to recover and I thought it might be nice to plant some things (root crops etc) for the pigs to rootle and find.
This year the paddock will be fallow and we would be looking to get two pigs next March/April (2012).
Any suggestions?
Susanna
PS Hilary's Mum - the ham turned out brilliant but I think we need to do boned rolled legs in future to make the slicing easier
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Glad the ham worked out.
Try growing beets (the large ones) apparently they utilise the nitrogen in the soil from the pig poo. Also carrots and any other root crops, although potato halms are poisonous so would have to be cut down before pigs were allowed in. I also grew peas and beans which I left unstaked to run along the ground, the pigs loved them.
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Hi
So if I grown betterave fouragère (mangels), kale marrow stemmed, jerusalem artichokes could I cut out the oats (farine d'orge) that is costing me so much as I am seriously thinking I may have to give up with the pigs, but they are so lovely I don't want to, it just the cost :(
thanks for advice
Sorry for being pedantic. Oats is avoine in French. Farine d'orge is barley flour. :-* :-*