The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on October 08, 2011, 06:42:21 pm
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Just in case anyone's on that has any ideas...
Piglets now two weeks old, all going brilliantly, little ones starting to eat a few pellets and a bit of apple.
This morning everything as normal, midday Meg her usual self, had a few apples when we had a visitor to see the little ones. (Just a few windfall apples - maybe 8.)
Teatime, Meg came out of the ark very slowly - not like her at all. Not interested in her food, threw up a few times. Then did have a very few pellets but not very many at all.
Have taken her temperature, I am rubbish with these new-fangled things, it says 100.8 so I probably didn't use it right. She feels warm but not overwarm, her mucous membranes are a little redder than they should be, I think.
She's fed the piglets - there was a lot of scrapping, which may mean she hasn't got much milk, but they were clearly getting some. One piglet threw up after feeding. Like a dog would be, it seemed absolutely fine after it had vomited twice.
There's no sign of mastitis, she's not sore below, she's just not herself. Sitting with her trying to get a temperature and watching the piglets feed, there was a lot of gurgling in her tum.
She hasn't had anything to eat today that she didn't have yesterday, but I've only been feeding the piglet pellets alongside her sow pellets for a few days.
The vet is on his way - but while I am waiting, does anyone have any ideas?
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Sorry Sally, nothing springs to mind (but it's been a long day & I'm not at my best)
Didn't want to read & run.
Hope she's better soon,
Karen x
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something springs to mind - rats pee on the apples???? did you wash them?
Emma T - with everything crossed that she is ok.
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Gosh - keep us updated. Sorry I can't offer any useful advice.
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Oh no! The only things I can think of are poisoning or severe infection, or possibly intestinal obstruction. Best of luck to you and Meg, and please let us know how she does. Hugs to you both xx
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I cant give any advice but i have everything crossed for you all :hshoe: :wave:
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Thanks for support, folks.
Vet says resps are normal, temperature is normal (102 is a little low but not worryingly so), guts sound normal, heart sounds normal, udder seems normal, no discharges and behaviour is encouraging. (He stood his ground a long time and she really drove him out of the ark!) Piglet vomitting is a little worrying, but he thought they all looked well. So his advice is if I am still worried in the morning, Pen&Strep - and for any sick piglets too. But he thinks she's probably just had a bad apple and will come around very quickly.
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poor meg, hope she and the little one recover soon,
:) :pig:
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Hi Sally, hope Meg has a good night and is bright eyed and waggy tailed in the morning. Pleased to hear vet not to worried at the moment. :wave:
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Well I checked on her before going to bed myself and she asked for food, so she's had a light supper of bananas, boiled potatoes and porridge. Fingers crossed all is ok
tomorrow. (Make that later today ::))
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how are things this morning........
hope all are feeling better
Mx
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Poor Meg! I hope all is well this morning :bouquet:
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Thanks for all the good wishes and enquiries, folks.
She had a good appetite this morning and has had her normal breakfast, just a slightly smaller portion. All looks hunky dory although I'd like her udder to be a bit more malleable. It's not hot though and she's not sore at all.
The piglets seemed fine but I will be keeping an eye as I am not yet 100% convinced she's milking ok. Hopefully just a hiccup.
As to what caused it... First off, I can't find anywhere that tells me it's normal for pigs to vomit, so that still has me a bit concerned. As far as I am aware she had nothing to eat yesterday she hadn't had the day before. It is possible that one or two of the (not very large number of, maybe 8 to 10) apples were unripe, picked not windfalls - could that cause a problem?
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Sally
sorry to read Meg and the piglets have been unwell, keep on with the antibiotic that the vet gave you won't do any harm, could be the unripe apples especially if they were cookers, is there any eveidence of rats around her ark, as somebody already mentioned rats pee is highly horrid causes lepcipriosis(sp?) which can be nasty. We've started to push bags of rat poison well under into the middle of the arks base to get rid of the little buggers as they're attracted by aby spilt food which is an occupational habit with pigs around.. Pigs generally only vomit if they've eaten something that doesn't agree with them so fingers crossed it was the apples.
Take care kiss to meg & babies
Mandy :pig:
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Hi Sally
Hope Meg and her piglets are faring better now. Sorry I have nothing to add to help as we're still new to pig keeping and breeding too, so just wanted to pass on our good wishes.
We're expecting litter no. 4 very soon now, and have been very lucky that the first three farrowing/ growing/ weaning experiences we have had with our pigs have been emotional (on my part at least!) but pretty uneventful. I absolutely understand your concern for Meg and her babies and hope they pull through and thrive.
Dee x
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have seen both sows and piglets being sick usually after gobbling food
pigs are the nearest animal to humans and they can be sick just as we can and get over it :farmer:
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Thanks robert. I wanted someone with loads of experience to tell me that. :-*
She's eaten and behaved normally today, the piglets seem fine (though they haven't come out of the ark very much, we've had just awful weather today), and she definitely has milk - I squirted some while she had her head in her feed.
I think what probably happened was she was hungry (I was later with her midday meal than usual), the weather was wet and horrid so rootling was less appealing and the straw in the ark was damp and muddy from the tramping in and out in wet weather - and she ate too much of that damp muddy straw and made herself sick. It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !
My book (the useless Andy Case one - I must get me a better one..) implied that vomiting was unusual and worrisome, and that a low temperature was seriously bad news, and I knew from stories played out on here that you don't want to mess about with lactating sows, but get her sorted quick. So I called the vet. He has a proper mercury thermometer so got a better temperature reading - still a bit low but not so bad. He also thought vomiting was unusual, but was honest enough to say he doesn't get to see a huge number of pigs. So I remained really quite worried until she seemed normal today. It's a relief to hear from someone with robert's experience that vomiting is not unusual in either sow or piglet.
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Thanks robert. I wanted someone with loads of experience to tell me that. :-*
She's eaten and behaved normally today, the piglets seem fine (though they haven't come out of the ark very much, we've had just awful weather today), and she definitely has milk - I squirted some while she had her head in her feed.
I think what probably happened was she was hungry (I was later with her midday meal than usual), the weather was wet and horrid so rootling was less appealing and the straw in the ark was damp and muddy from the tramping in and out in wet weather - and she ate too much of that damp muddy straw and made herself sick. It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !
My book (the useless Andy Case one - I must get me a better one..) implied that vomiting was unusual and worrisome, and that a low temperature was seriously bad news, and I knew from stories played out on here that you don't want to mess about with lactating sows, but get her sorted quick. So I called the vet. He has a proper mercury thermometer so got a better temperature reading - still a bit low but not so bad. He also thought vomiting was unusual, but was honest enough to say he doesn't get to see a huge number of pigs. So I remained really quite worried until she seemed normal today. It's a relief to hear from someone with robert's experience that vomiting is not unusual in either sow or piglet.
I would have thought vomiting in any animal was unusual and not normal. The sow will vomit before she has her pigs, but not always. The piglets will vomit and scour if the requirements of the ark/hut are not dry and warm. ie. wet damp straw.....cold drafts. To find out some of these issues it is good to lay down on their bedding and get the feel of what they are living with and in. This is a good way to feel drafts coming into their ark/hut. Also if the straw is damp you will feel uncomfortable. to the point of feeling cold....so will they. If piglets are vomiting I would expect them to have something wrong and call a vet or email a vet. To drink milk too quickly and bring excess milk back up is one thing but to vomit for no apparent reason is a measure for a vet.
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It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !
If piglets are vomiting I would expect them to have something wrong and call a vet or email a vet. To drink milk too quickly and bring excess milk back up is one thing but to vomit for no apparent reason is a measure for a vet.
I think that's exactly what it was, Blonde. Guzzly little oinker ate (drank) too much milk too quickly and brought some back up. Probably the piglet equivalent of being burped!
And you are right on the money re: the straw. I hadn't realised that it was damp through the comings and goings with it being wet and muddy outside and found out pretty quickly when I sat in there with them for half an hour. Now I am checking and bunging some fresh dry straw in every day while we have these wet weather conditions.
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It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !
If piglets are vomiting I would expect them to have something wrong and call a vet or email a vet. To drink milk too quickly and bring excess milk back up is one thing but to vomit for no apparent reason is a measure for a vet.
I think that's exactly what it was, Blonde. Guzzly little oinker ate (drank) too much milk too quickly and brought some back up. Probably the piglet equivalent of being burped!
And you are right on the money re: the straw. I hadn't realised that it was damp through the comings and goings with it being wet and muddy outside and found out pretty quickly when I sat in there with them for half an hour. Now I am checking and bunging some fresh dry straw in every day while we have these wet weather conditions.
You will notice that the wet straw will begin to break down and become warm..... this the piglets will enjoy but it may take a week to come about. so I would keep the dry straw up to them continuously until the weather improves. Have you got a board in front of your opening to your hut. This allows you to build up the soil kans straw to get the ground somewhat dry. I build up my floors with a pallet first, then fill this with the dirt around the pen then put straw on top of this, but the board in front of the hut stops the sows from dragging the soil out of the hut has she walks, kjshe kahs to step over it and so this keeps the dry soil and straw in the hut for her babies . If you wstch closely the pigs all drag their back legs, rarely do they lift them when walking on soil but if they have to step over something then they will and they will get used to it.
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The ark has a solid, raised floor - we get too much water coming up through the ground to do otherwise in this particular spot. So any wet comes only from pee or water coming in on wet bodies and muddy legs. There is a lip at the front of the ark so they don't drag much if any straw out with them.
I knew about leaving the older straw in the ark to get warm through composting, now with fresh straw on top they have the best of both worlds. :)
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The ark has a solid, raised floor - we get too much water coming up through the ground to do otherwise in this particular spot. So any wet comes only from pee or water coming in on wet bodies and muddy legs. There is a lip at the front of the ark so they don't drag much if any straw out with them.
I knew about leaving the older straw in the ark to get warm through composting, now with fresh straw on top they have the best of both worlds. :)
You should use it to your advantage :)
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Only just caught up on this post - heavens what a worry, but delighted to read that all OK now. :thumbsup:
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If it helps Sally everyday we drag out wet damp straw from in the door way and put it outside in front to make a doormat (Piggies like to wipe their feet too! ;D) and then replenish door area with new.
Hth
Mandy :pig:
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vomiting have seen piglets gorging themselves then barfing up and continuing eating the other piglets eat the vomit
bedding with the wet weather we have been having in Scotland it impossible to keep them on clean dry straw they are cleaner and dryer sleeping in the open under trees and at the back of the dyke also what blonde said before about leaving the bedding to generate heat just the same as bedding cattle in sheds
outdoor systems work in free draining soil with an average rainfall
as a side note i was driving about east and central Scotland on sat and sun the state of some fields are really bad and that is the good areas :farmer:
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Some of the outdoor farms put a hut in place and leave the lid open, fill the hut with dirt, but first have a board in front of the hut to keep it all in. They then add hay to it and put the lid on. The pigs have dry places to lay all year around. Some of them grow on clay soils which become a complete bog during the winter. Me I am lucky in that I have yellow sand, but in saying that I am very close to the clay and the water will lay for the whole of winter around the huts, so building them up inside is so important, as I dont have dry hay if I dont do this either. The piglets get cold and sometimes if we have had a heavy downpour I lose them to drowning. Then I feel frustrated because of it. For me Pallets are a blessing to have and generally they are free. Composting is so IMPORTANT because I am also outside.
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Sally, you mentioned wanting a good pig book. My "bible" (no offence, religious people) is Managing Pig Health and the Treatment of Disease by Muirhead and Alexander (http://shop.thepigsite.com/detail/35/managing-pig-health-and-the-treatment-of-disease/ (http://shop.thepigsite.com/detail/35/managing-pig-health-and-the-treatment-of-disease/))
Cost me over £40 when I bought it, but was a really worthwhile investment. The publishers (5M) also do a series of mini-books on specific things, e.g. breeding/fertility.
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My "bible" (no offence, religious people) is Managing Pig Health and the Treatment of Disease by Muirhead and Alexander (http://shop.thepigsite.com/detail/35/managing-pig-health-and-the-treatment-of-disease/ (http://shop.thepigsite.com/detail/35/managing-pig-health-and-the-treatment-of-disease/))
Cost me over £40 when I bought it, but was a really worthwhile investment.
It's £55 now - that's reduced from list price £95! I don't mind spending the money if it's the right book - but the blurb is heavy on the use of the term 'pig farm' so I wonder if a lot of the advice is aimed at a more mass-production setup than me and my one, may become two, low output free range sows!
However, following the link did remind me of the Health database on the Pig Site (which info is from that very book, it says), so that is a great resource I had forgotten about.
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Trust me, it's worth every penny. May have been originally aimed at large-scale pig farmers, but it's absolutely suited to the small-scale breeder, too. And not heavy on jargon. Otherwise, I wouldn't have recommended it. All of the info on the pig site comes from that book - but the book goes into far greater detail.
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Looks like I've got an answer to Mum's annual "What do you want for Christmas?" question, then, Liz!
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I'm so glad Meg is OK.
I feel a bit idiotic mentioning this especially as Meg & the piglet vomited, and so this doesn't really fit.
But - here goes :-[ at 2weeks meg will be in her hogging cycle again - could she have been experiencing some form of uterine contractions etc.?
One of my sows used to have a terrible time when hogging before her first litter and she does from time to time now - after her last (3rd) litter especially. She would be off her food, if she came out of her arc at all she would be walking very gingerly, as if on broken glass and would be generally miserable. It would last for a day and a half tops. The first time it happened I was so worried, the second time, I was too & then I clicked that her hogging was the common factor.
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But - here goes :-[ at 2weeks meg will be in her hogging cycle again - could she have been experiencing some form of uterine contractions etc.?
Well now I am confused ??? I have read that the sow will come a-hogging 5 days after she is weaned, and so had assumed she would not come a-hogging while the piglets were suckling?
(And please don't hold back from mentioning things that could be useful, violet or anyone else - see how this from violet has thrown up another question where I clearly hadn't correctly understood what I'd read!)
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I'm so glad Meg is OK.
I feel a bit idiotic mentioning this especially as Meg & the piglet vomited, and so this doesn't really fit.
But - here goes :-[ at 2weeks meg will be in her hogging cycle again - could she have been experiencing some form of uterine contractions etc.?
One of my sows used to have a terrible time when hogging before her first litter and she does from time to time now - after her last (3rd) litter especially. She would be off her food, if she came out of her arc at all she would be walking very gingerly, as if on broken glass and would be generally miserable. It would last for a day and a half tops. The first time it happened I was so worried, the second time, I was too & then I clicked that her hogging was the common factor.
What do you mean by HOGGING .......coming in to season,, ???,,, cycling...... ???
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But - here goes :-[ at 2weeks meg will be in her hogging cycle again - could she have been experiencing some form of uterine contractions etc.?
Well now I am confused ??? I have read that the sow will come a-hogging 5 days after she is weaned, and so had assumed she would not come a-hogging while the piglets were suckling?
(And please don't hold back from mentioning things that could be useful, violet or anyone else - see how this from violet has thrown up another question where I clearly hadn't correctly understood what I'd read!)
Sows wont mate after farrowing or come back in to heat while they have piglets on them,,,,,Only when the piglets have been weaned do the sows begin to cycle and by day 4 they are nearly there and by day 7 they have finished for the next, If they are missed then they wait 21 days and start again. If they are too thin they may not come back in to heat either or for that matter too fat.
The sow must have picked up a bug or the environmental conditions were favourable for her to have had a herd bug develop. . Have you introduced new stock to your piggery lately?
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hogging =gouping for it sorry blonde you are wrong sows do come in season when suckling piglets maybe not as pronounced as when they are without piglets
it has been said before PIGS CANT READ THE BOOKS SO THEY DO THERE OWN THING :farmer:
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The sow must have picked up a bug or the environmental conditions were favourable for her to have had a herd bug develop. . Have you introduced new stock to your piggery lately?
No new stock, no - only the arrival of the piglets 2 weeks earlier!
We have been having a spate of evil wet weather; the ark is dry and the door faces into the least likely direction for wind (and the rain has been hitting at a different angle) but the straw was damper than I'd realised from the comings and goings of the wet and muddy sow, so it was either that or an unripe apple.
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Sally don't think the sickness is anything do with her coming into season but do be aware that at around 20 days she will come into season and her milk will go off a little this is usually evident by the piglets getting th trots and their poo turning creamy, it passes after a few days but make sure they have access to water as well as mum's milk.
My bible is Carol Harris's 'Guide to tradional pig keeping' brand new its aroudn the £20 mark but you can get it 2nd hand on Amazon for much less. Its very good and sensible.
Bloody awful weather here too, paddocks are quagmires, the surface is hard as concrete covered with slurry slippy mud, i was only thinking the other day that we might get another month outside for the stock pigs but if it continues lke this they'll be in before the months out. My weaners a Glocester mud spots!! ;D
Mandy :pig:
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Oh dear I seem to have thrown a spanner in the works ::)
I believe that gilts sows come back into season when their piglets are weaned at 8weeks ( If I put mine in with the boar straight away this certainly corresponds), and I've also heard that they can at 5 weeks too.
I just worked backwards. I assume that they are 'cycling' - even if they're aren't actually hogging - does that make sense?
Will read the rest of the responses more thoroughly later as there's alot of new information for me :)
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Done that.
The information I have is that a sow/gilt maintains her cycle, once established, throughout her life & therefore her pregnancy.
So I've done a few calculations - procrastinating when I'm supposed to be getting my head down & doing paperwork ::)
So if a pregnancy is 115days and taking the day of conception as the middle of her cycle - this means that her cycle will continue through out & start at 13days after farrowing and then 34 days, 55 days & 76 days and so on. She might not reach full hogging at those times though. I also believe that not all sows have an exact 21 day cycle either, so it does vary from individual to individual.
I got this information from a very experienced breeder and have no reason to doubt it, as it works for me - but as with anything I'm happy to learn about what others know & what their experiences are.
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No Violet no spanner, as you say every pig is different, my girls are all generally 20 - 22 days so i know when to keep an eye on them and what to expect, i have a friend who's sow got out 3wks after giving birth and found her way to the boar and became pregnant straigtaway, the litter she had from this pregnancy was small so you would assume that egg production is at a lower number at this time. 20 days (3wks) is also why a lot of commercial farms take the piglets away at this time, the sow comes into season and off they go again!
best Mandy :pig:
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pig keepers can only observe there pigs and there are no hard and fast rules we have seen mothering pigs cycling we have seen dry pigs put straight to the boar and servered (no signs of being receptive) and farrowing to the date of service we have also seen them on heat with piglets at foot separated from piglets and servered before the 21 day full cycle and farrowing to the date of service :farmer:
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I am quite an old sow, who had a total hysterectomy (totally hysterical rectum) over ten years ago! I still work in cycles. Still get a form of PMT etc.....my moods definately still follow the old pattern!! this was the case even during my two pregnancies ::)
So if i can....why not other mammals..?
The old sow Emma T
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So there are some advantages living in the South. We haven't had any rain for ages and everything is dry as a bone. Sure it won't last - Tamsaddle