The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Penninehillbilly on October 06, 2011, 12:36:50 pm
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Hi
hoping someone can advise me here.
I've almost always had dogs around, current dog is a neutered collie x (rescue) His 'partner in crime' had to go, thru ill health last year.
We have just taken on a border collie bitch, apparently 5 yr old.
she's been shunted round for a couple of months, after being given away following a marriage break up.
apparently been kept loose in a yard.
We only got her last night, but first impressions are - not house trained (messed last night, even after a long walk down lane), doesn't really even 'sit', VERY submissive, (when I say 'sit' don't know whether she almost obeying or just asking for petting, obviously doesn't 'stay' or anything else. she does seem to answer to her name, or maybe it's just the encouragement in my voice. when I took her for a walk she was so busy trying to be friends I could hardly walk for falling over her.
I did say 'NO' rather sharply this morning to stop her climbing up on some clutter in the porch, - result was a puddle and poor girl crawling on floor.
She's living in the conservatory for now, original boy is pretending she doesn't exist so I'll let him know he's still number one for a few days (he has confidence problems as well :( )
To top it all she's arrived well 'in season', (I've been assured she hasn't been got at), so whether that could affect her so much I'm not sure.
Can you teach a 5yr old to be house trained? she 'could' live out in the kennel in the future (when she's spayed) but I need to build that confidence up and do a some training. She would be in the house in bad weather, so I really need to get that house training sorted.
She seems to want to please (or just daft) so I'm sure we can teach her basic commands if we can get over this fawning and (asking for reassurance?)
I know all this may seem like early days, and I've had enough dogs to know she must be very confused, but I have a feeling these problems aren't just because it's all new to her, maybe this is why she's been shunted round so much.
I really want to give her a permanent home, but OH isn't too impressed yet, so I need to get things together ASAP
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How kind of you to give her a home. She sounds so scared and as you say will be very confused with all the moves and different people with different expectations for her.
I can't offer any advice about training her, although I would expect that with patience and time you can house train her in spite of her age. When we had a slight problem with a new puppy it was Corrie Dhu on here who sorted it out really well - she is a wonder with dogs :thumbsup: :) :dog:
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She might have some long term issues going on, but alot of it might just be, she is scared and insecure, new surroundings, her head is all in a wizz, she doesnt know whats going on, i would give her lots of tlc, plus some of her own quiet time, so she can chill out, and get her head round stuff, at night put her somewhere so any mess is in a limited area, and put some newspaper down so maybe she might use that,
It might just might be nerves,
Fingers crossed for you and good luck, she is very lucky :wave:
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Yes you can house-train her at 5 yrs old and yes you can get over this over-submissive behaviour :-* It will take patience!
Essentially you need to be less dominant around her initially (not suggesting you were overdoing it, just to explain what you're trying to achieve). Sit down on the floor with her, let her climb on you, if you can put up with it let her lick your face. Try to keep a routine and be as slow, quiet and calm around her as you can manage.
House-training. Take her out when she's most likely to want to 'go' ie after being fed, first thing etc. To the same place each time, lots of fuss for getting it right, ignore it if she gets it wrong to begin with at least (regard it as feedback that she needs letting out more).
She's a lucky girl :)
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i can give more detailed advise tomorrow, but personally i think the very best thing you could do is to contact border collie trust of great britain (bctgb). not to rehome her ;) but they really are wonderful at giving advise especially with rescue bc's. they could give you more help in one email/phone call than i could give you in days on here.
however, for now, she will cling to you like glue for a while, watch she doesnt snap in defence at your other dog.
if she piddles through fear/submission ignore her and quietly clean up (otherwise you just reinforce submissive piddling!) i would have her on a lead at all times when possible, and when not possible pop her in an indoor kennel. just temporary but that way she cant get into any mischief, so wont need the correction that she cant handle at the moment, also it will help amazingly with the house training. she will soon come around and be emotionally strong enough to take a correction without thinking her world is crashing down ;)
good luck and well done you :trophy:
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Thanks for the advice, by indoor kennel do you mean a dog cage? I did wonder about popping her in one, but thought if she did mess she'd stand/ sit in it.
when she did have a little accident I did just clean up when she was through the door, no point in upsetting her more.
We brought her in the kitchen tonight, but she kept pushing the other dog away when he came for a pat, not nasty, just got between us saying ME ME ME wriggling and wagging tail like mad. Unfortunatley it was a bit to much all the time when we were trying to get a meal, so she was back in the conservatory (bed, food + water out there).
The conservatory is full of al sorts of clutter, unfortunatly she's been jumping up and chewing things (bang goes a rather expensive LED torch :o, I'll have to tell him I dropped it. hope its just being insecure and she gets thru that stage quickly!
She doesn't seem to know what a walk is for, tonight I walked her without a lead and she literally walked next to me, watching me all the time, I tried to stand by some grass but she just sat and looked at me. (it is a private lane, so quite safe) so I suppose there will be something to clean up in the morning :(
Today I was walking passed her and naturally put my hand down to pat her, as I would with other boy, she sort of winced and swung her head away, quite upsetting.
I'v also changed my mind about her coming to her name-she doesn't, but I suppose (hope) that's the easiest thing to remedy :)
Ah well, early days, another day tomorrow, we'll see what that brings, 'night all.
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Hi Penninehillybilly :wave:
.... I think a dog cage is a good idea - she will soon learn it to be a nice place if you feed her in it and it will give you and the other dog a break from her- which will benefit her by giving her the change to relax in her own space too.
--this sort of dog will take much patience on your behalf, but if you can get her life into some sort of routine I am sure she will start to settle in her new environment.
Good luck :dog:
Tilly
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I think you're doing a great thing taking this dog on. I'm sure with lots of care and patience, she'll turn out fine. Poor pup, sounds like she's had a bit of a bad time. Good times coming now - she just hasn't realised it yet :dog:
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She's a bit calmer tonight, she's been outside all day, unfortunately on a chain, I would have put a few feet of light webbing between her and the chain, but I think she would chew thru it, too risky yet.
someone called round with a couple of dogs, I was distracted while unloading some goods, next thing there was a ruckus and she'd snapped at a dog, after they'd gone she snapped at Jim, my other dog, I hope it was just because she was still upset from the first one and not a sign of things to come.
Got a voucher from the local council for getting her spayed, that will be a relief!
On a walk she did run a few yards after Jim, and kept coming back to me, so that's good, it was nice to see her relax for a few seconds anyway, and she did her business up the lane, even better, so she received much praise ;D.
I'll try and talk her into the cage tonight, this morning the conservatory looked like a bomb had gone off! She did go in the outside kennel when there was a cold wind, but seemed to prefer laying on the flags watching everything :).
Thanks for the advice and support, glad your'e there :)
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Another similar thread started related to a nervous Lab :)
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dont worry about the snapping too much, as i predicted, nervy collies especially bitches will defend their new source of love and care but can get too carried away! if possible avoid situations where she can do it, ie with the indoor kennel (yup dog crate, best invention in the world ever! you can put sheep in them in your sisters posh car to get to the vets too ;))
have a look online at the N.I.L.I.F theory, nothing in life is free. this works wonders for nervy dogs and pushy dominant dogs alike. the dog must earn EVERYTHING, food, walks, cuddles etc. you can give a million cuddles a day if you wish, but simply ask them to sit or lie down (or do anything you like) first.
good luck!
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just to give a quick update, we've had 2 'clean' nights, (hope I'm not speaking too soon)
I did try the crate, she messed in it then of course got it over herself, went for the newspaper by the door routine.
She's still very nervous, because she sits/stands in front as you try to walk past, I have to do a balancing act to get round her, lost my balance a bit one day, toppled a little with my arm outstretched, poor girl was sitting, reared up and fell over backwards in a panic, another time OH picked the poker up to stir the Rayburn and she hit the kitchen unit, trying to get to the far corner too fast, yesterday i took the sweeping brush to sweep the conservatory while she was in there, she ran off thru the open house door. I think that tells me what she's come from.
She seems to have settled to a routine, she actually seems very intelligent, I can't understand why anyone would 'waste' such a lovely dog.
learnt to 'sit' (most of the time),
Answers to her name, (unless I'm trying to get her out of the kitchen, come out but runs back in before I can shut the door ::)) (maybe TOO intelligent at times :) )
learnt to bring toy back, (forgot the next day, but we'll get there, good exercise+bonding, ;D).
But help please
She chews plastic things (ie. unfortunatly left milk measuring jug out :(), any ideas how I can dissuade her, we've bought her rawhide and a plastic chewy bones for her teeth, but if I give her these when she's been chewing, wouldn't that be like rewarding her for chewing?
What's the best way of teaching to 'stay' when she just wants to be with me, but not always practical when I'm busy with something, other dogs have seemed simple by comparison, I don't want to ask too much of her yet, but it's only basics.
Looked at the NILIF theory, interesting, it's very much as I treat my dogs anyway, I suppose I have been giving Moll more hugs, and Jim to let him know he's not ignored. But it was difficult to just ignore Moll when she was climbing onto the settee with me, or trying to climb in behind me, (no dogs on furniture in this house), she was told firmly 'NO' and pushed off untill she stayed off, she hasn't tried it since. She gets praise and hugs when she gets something right, disappointment in my voice when mistakes (IE indoor messies), she knows.
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But help please
She chews plastic things (ie. unfortunatly left milk measuring jug out :(), any ideas how I can dissuade her, we've bought her rawhide and a plastic chewy bones for her teeth, but if I give her these when she's been chewing, wouldn't that be like rewarding her for chewing?
No it wouldn't. You are wanting to stop her developing a bad habit, is all. Always have something you are happy for her to chew within reach. If she starts to chew something she shouldn't, simply insert the chew-toy in her mouth and praise her. If she drops it and starts on the treasured possession again, simply repeat. The idea is to distract her from doing the thing you don't want her to do and not have her get into that habit. If she won't switch onto a chew-toy then think up another distraction - throw a toy she likes, call her, anything that stops that habit getting a hold.
If she's chewing the wrong things when you're not there then don't have the wrong things accessible when you're not there - if that means she's in the outhouse or cage, that's what I'd do, until she knows what it's okay to chew and is going to chew that when she wants to chew.
What's the best way of teaching to 'stay' when she just wants to be with me, but not always practical when I'm busy with something, other dogs have seemed simple by comparison, I don't want to ask too much of her yet, but it's only basics.
Teach stay without it being about not being near you, then start to do it from a little way away. So for instance, if she likes dog biscuits, teach her to 'stay' until you tell her she can get the dog biscuit (or toy, or whatever.) Then you start to move away from her while she is staying before she gets the reward. Then you can start to ask her to Sit and Stay remotely, using the reward she's used to. Eventually she'll just obey the command wherever she is.
Looked at the NILIF theory, interesting, it's very much as I treat my dogs anyway, I suppose I have been giving Moll more hugs, and Jim to let him know he's not ignored. But it was difficult to just ignore Moll when she was climbing onto the settee with me, or trying to climb in behind me, (no dogs on furniture in this house), she was told firmly 'NO' and pushed off untill she stayed off, she hasn't tried it since. She gets praise and hugs when she gets something right, disappointment in my voice when mistakes (IE indoor messies), she knows.
You can train her using reward and punishment, she's intelligent and wants to please. But with a nervous collie bitch, you'll make better progress in getting her to be more confident and less cringeingly submissive by striving to make the punishment 'an absence of reward' rather than showing her your displeasure. So for instance, if she climbs up on the furniture, just ignore her, get up and move away. When she's on the floor, praise her. (She will get down, she wants to be with you so she'll follow you!) She may take three or four times to get the message, instead of only once being told off - but her confidence will grow faster. Think about it from her point of view - sometimes she comes to you and she gets a hug, sometimes she comes to you and gets told off. So when she approaches you, she's not sure what reaction she'll get - hence the cringeing and submission. If the worst that ever happens is that you ignore her and move away, she'll become more confident in her approaches. And will quickly learn which approaches work.
She's a lucky girl having a new mum who's prepared to work so hard to help her adjust and settle into her new home. :)
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my collie had the habit of trying to please and always being under our feet so I took time out to train him to move and sit behind me if I wanted to pass. Everytime I approached he would start to go to the front of me I would call him to the back of my leg by tapping on it and telling him to sit and obviously a reward treat. It took a couple of weeks and then the food treat stopped and I now either just speak to him or pat him on the head and pass without issue.
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Well done on giving this little girlie a home - Border collies are so intelligent yet sensitive, and sounds as if she's not had the best experiences. Did you get her from a rescue? If so do they not give any help after you adopting her with these little issues?
The chewing will be a sign of anxiousness - it makes them feel better, so as a previous poster suggests its best to be extra vigilant and only leave in reach what she can have. It's a shame she didn't settle in a cage because that would have helped here too. Is it worth another try?
With the pooing inside - they usually have a routine if you feed them the same time each day to help you predict when she may need to be outside. Also if you feed food which produces less poo the other end and firm poo (Sorry about this!!) it gives them a chance to control it better (eg raw bones to chew, raw meat or really good quality kibble).
Stay is quite an advanced command - do you think you are expecting too much too soon here? You could always pop a lead on here and tie her up somewhere near you when you are doing the jobs? Sounds like she needs a lot of reassurance.
What's she like with loud noises? Just wondering because its getting to that time of year again with fireworks. Quite a few sheepdogs are terrified of them, I know more than one owner who drives up and down the M62 with the dogs in the car to get away from the bangs around 5th November. There's quite a gathering at the service stations :-)
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Sorry - just read your posts on the labrador thread - seems I've repeated what you've already discussed!
By the way a thundershirt is a body wrap on the same basis as the mekuti ones another poster put a link on the other thread. They hug the body tightly which gives them reassurance. ( In the "olden days" we did this with newborn babies - swaddling them in a blanket - but not done nowadays :-) ) A childs tee shirt on the dog if it fits tightly would perhaps do the same and cheaper than the £35+ for a thundershirt :o
http://www.thundershirt.xtradog.com/ (http://www.thundershirt.xtradog.com/)
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Thanks for the replies
The chewing is when I'm not there, I do tend to put things down while dashing off to do other jobs, so to an extent it's my fault, unfortunatly the conservatory is full of stuff that 'doesn't belong anywhere else' there is still plenty of room for her and she does have chewies and toys there. It's obviously more fun to find different things to play with! I don't know how she got the milk jug, I'm sure I didn't leave it on the floor, I wondered if she found it because of my scent was on the handle (the bit she chewed)
The 'stay' was mainly while I was trying to clear up, and not really moving away, but having a wriggly licky dog in my face every time I bend down slows the job down somewhat, if she'd sit by my side for a few minutes that's all I'd ask for now :).
She doesn't take treats from my hand, she ignores the treat and pushes her head under my hand and against my leg, I've tried popping treats in the side of her mouth so she gets the nice taste, but she drops it and pushes towards me. She'll only eat when I leave her alone with her food dish. She would only eat dried dog food when she came, at least we've got her eating meat.
* Thinking about it - we got some liver for them, would small pieces of cooked liver be OK for treats? she does seem to like it. (a local slaughter/food processing company throws tons of liver away, no-one wants it, digraceful!)
Climbing on the furniture was the ony time I've been firm with her, (apart from saying NO sharply just after she came), mainly because OH was losing patience, and she was jumping up while he was eating, I wasn't 'cross' with her, just firm, she's never petted when she jumps up, (I turn away) only when sat or stood, When she's throwing herself on the floor at my feet I get her to sit up before I pet her (which she's quick to do now when I say 'sit up').
OH isn't an 'animal person', come to think of it, he did shout at her for being 'under his feet', (theres a narrow passage in the houe, he was carrying something and she's got in front of him) I've tried to explain a bit about dog psycology, and we can't blame her for the way she is, he has taken that on board, and he is better with her now, and doesn't raise his voice at her, but he doesn't have much patience, but he doesn't have much to do with them, apart from morning and late night walkies.
He is very good when I ask for help with the animals, so I can't complain at him too much.
I'll keep trying with the treats, liver might be a bit messy, and I'm presuming not too much, but I think I'll try a little.
But she's a real little sweetie, who just wants to please :)
just seen the new posts,
we by-passed the rescue societies, a friend heard about her and brought her from somewhere, didn't ask whether the owner was aware, just presumed it was legal ;D.
I might give the crate another try, she didn't seem stressed in there, I just didn't want to have to wash her down again (and her bedding). poo is reasonably firm, but squashed in paws is not pleasant (can we have a smiley for 'yuk')
Popping her on a lead is so obvious- never thought of that ::). as it's a nice day she's is tied outside just now.
I don't know what she's like with loud noises, no obvious problem with the gun club which we can hear over the hill, we'll soon find out!
'thundershirt' sounds a strange but understanable idea, might think about that.
Thanks
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Penninehillbilly
Everyone has given you such good advise that i couldn't give any more but i just want to say i had a bitch so like yours it is uncanny, when i first read your post you could have been describing my Meg.
All i can say is with a lot of love and understanding of where and What she's come from i now have a lovely collie bitch.
Yes she is welded to me some days and we do have bad days when she reverts to what she was and yes we do still have a slight aggression towards the men of the family but we can live with it and we get by.
We don't condone bad behavour we tend to ignore it if possible and praise the good stuff.
Well done for taking her on and i expect you would be her last hope she sounds too nervous to keep being pushed about. Our rescue dog collie had 5 homes in 5 years and he is lovely too.
Good luck, persevere with her, they are worth it in the long run
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PHB - I think you are doing a wonderful job, and she sounds a real darling :love:. A dog that's glued to you sounds wonderful compared to mine whose main ambition is to get into the next county! ;D \(they are setters and running off is what they're best at!)
All you can do is to try things as you are doing to see if it helps, if not try something else. Any photos ??? My little collie has gone to live with my son (always intended) and I am missing her ! I'm trying hard not to look at the photos of Dougals puppies for sale :-\
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Barbara Sykes is the border collie rescue lady, very wise. She's written a very good book 'Understanding Border Collies' which may be helpful.
You sound like you've got a dog who's 'fuss-motivated' rather than 'food-motivated'. I've got one of each. No point trying to train Skye with food, he doesn't care about it. Whereas a cuddle with me... :D Skerry, on the other hand, will learn anything if she gets a treat for doing it ::)
I'd second ignoring poor behaviour rather than telling her off. Just withdraw. They're so smart they very quickly 'get it' in a way that most breeds just wouldn't.
Another thing you need to be careful of, given that they're so smart, is inadvertently reinforcing the wrong behaviour - they make links extraordinarily quickly :D
As for the conservatory - engineer out the problem, ie don't leave her with things she can destroy at the moment - make it easy for her to get it right. Put her in a large cage when she's left, just don't leave her in it for long periods.
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This is soppy, I hope you don't mind me sharing it.
She had me in tears today ( :-) )
I took them both with me while I went to clear a field drain (pld stone drains-channel with stones over top).
I was working about 2' down, everytime I lifted my head up there was a cold nose to greet me. eventually I was happy it was cleared, stood up -
dogs were laid back to back, Moll had her head up, facing me, ears half mast, eyes closed, she sort of half opened her eyes, looked into mine, a couple of waves of her tail, then she just closed her eyes and laid back against Jim, she just looked so relaxed and content I was blubbing, had to pack up, hands were muddy and theres a limit to how often you can wipe eyes and a snuffly nose on a sleeve! ::) LOL. I've set myself off again now :)
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That's a lovely story, PHB. Thanks for posting it.
You (and Jim) are making great progress with your girl. :bouquet:
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Sounds like you are making great progress.
Just realised that your liver question went without an answer. Liver can be too rich for some dogs but you can very easily make treats with it that freeze beautifully. The first time I did this my husband grabbed a piece before I could stop him and then complained there wasn't enough seasoning for his taste! Loads of different recipes about but I whizz up some raw liver with self raising flour (half the quantity of flour to liver) and a couple of garlic cloves and around 2 eggs to 8 ozs or so of liver and then bake it in a flat tin in a medium oven for around 40 minutes. Cut up into small pieces and freeze in smallish lots (I do enough for one day in a bag). Great training treats and for those using clicker most dogs will regard them as a "jackpot" treat.
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What a lovely story - sounds like you're (all) making excellent progress ;D
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Liver can be too rich for some dogs but you can very easily make treats with it that freeze beautifully. The first time I did this my husband grabbed a piece before I could stop him and then complained there wasn't enough seasoning for his taste! Loads of different recipes about but I whizz up some raw liver with self raising flour (half the quantity of flour to liver) and a couple of garlic cloves and around 2 eggs to 8 ozs or so of liver and then bake it in a flat tin in a medium oven for around 40 minutes. Cut up into small pieces and freeze in smallish lots (I do enough for one day in a bag). Great training treats and for those using clicker most dogs will regard them as a "jackpot" treat.
Fronhaul,
What sort of texture is it when it comes out of the oven? I am interested in making some for my new puppy but think I will probably wait a few weeks first anyway as I expect the liver will be too rich when I first get him.
Still, if it can be frozen I could make a small batch and put it in the freezer until the time comes.
thanks
Sally
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Barbara Sykes is the border collie rescue lady, very wise. She's written a very good book 'Understanding Border Collies' which may be helpful.
I can second that. She is in West Yorkshire - so not too far away, but sounds as if you are doing OK on your own PHB. Barabara runs the rescue Freedom of Spirit Trust for Border Collies http://www.fostbc.org.uk/ (http://www.fostbc.org.uk/) You can follow them on facebook, if you look at Wills story that will really have you in tears!
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I glad fronhaul has posted the liver cake recipe as i was going to suggest this,its brilliant stuff!
My parents are dog trainers at a club and they often have very nervous or dogs with problems and i can honestly say that not once have they failed to woo a dog with liver cake.
Jaykay it basically looks like(or when i make it!) a flapjack sort of texture,couple of inches thick,the first time i made it the kids were about to eat it until i said what was in it.
Penninehillbilly you are doing so well,i had a border puppy that i bought who was so nervous i have posted about it before,the only person she would relate to was me,a complete nervous wreck,underweight and full of worms,i had her at 12 weeks old,she is now 10 months and is a completely different dog,she will even now greet strangers when before she would just run back to her cage,i'm not going to lie it wasn't all easy but we got there in the end which i have no doubt you will as well.
With regards to the cage its slightly different for me as my dogs live outside although they have a cage each in witch they choose to sleep in,if they hear anything that frightens them like fireworks you will find them in there cages.They see it as a safe place.I would defiantly try it again.
Karen
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To be honest, I'm wondering just how much is 'nervous collie' and how much is the result of treatment. I don't think we would have got so far so quickly if it been really deep 'inbuilt' nervous behaviour. All I've done is give her routine, walks, regular feeds, and talked and stayed calm with her. I think Jim, the other dog is so laid back it's calmed her down as well, Next step is to meet the poultry etc, didn't want any excitement until she'd settled a bit.
She's still quite attention demanding, and goes into overdrive if I pet Jimmy, even though I'm petting her at the same time, so I walk away from both of them, They each get some petting on their own later.
Thanks for all the kind words as well as the advice, I do feel a fraud because all I'm doing is hopefully giving her a better life, nothing brilliant about that, it's what any dog/pet deserves from us.