The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: grumpsgarden on August 09, 2011, 02:00:39 pm
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looking for some advice please on dogs for sheep , i would like to train a springer as a sheep dog ,but the old man wants a lab and weve been told the only dog to have is a border colie but me and the old woman want a spinger the only thing we agree on is that we need a sheep dog so any advice would be a great help thank you
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once i pick myself of the floor i will let Annie (the resident dog expert) answer your query :farmer:
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Ok, here I am..................
I held a Brittany training day a few weeks ago on my friends' sheep farm near Hawick. We had various activities but basically they are a gundog of the hunter, pointer, retriever variety. We did hunting, retreiving, emergency stops, turns etc, agility, and lastly acclimatisation to animals - this included sheep. My young lad has never seen a sheep in his short life except for the cade lamb we looked after for a bit, which unfortunately died when returend to the flock from coccidiosis - he used to play 'jump and go flat' games with him. When I went into the field with Malcolm I could see straight away that Bobby was very interested in the sheep, and when Malcolm took the lead from me, I tried to entreat him not to let him off as I knew what was going to happen - or I thought I did. Bobby took off like a bullet - round the far side of the field, to the rear of the 40 sheep, moved in, and the sheep headed for a small brook runnng under a copse of trees. He then came round to our side and moved them forward, pushing any stragglers back into the main group by edging forward. All this time I was screaming his name to try to get him back and on the lead, when suddenly Malcolm held his hand up for me to stop and watch. Bobby had got all the sheep under the trees, it was an absolute thunderpelt where we were in the middle of the field, but teh sheep were dry, and was just standing about 30 feet away from them watching them quietly graze. I went over and put his lead on, and Malcom walked the sheep down to the far end of the field and into the pen. He then proceeded to lift Bobby over into a crammed pen with the sheep pushing and shoving him around. He found a space and came over to the gate and casually started to eat the grass as if to say 'I was only teaching the sheep how to eat grass Mum!' ::) We left him in there for a good 10 minutes and he never looked near them again. But since he is supposed to ignore sheep on a shoot I have to find someone with sheep closer to hiome that I can take him amongst to re-inforce the training.
My oldest brittany, Freckles, who is now ten, did a very similar thing when she was 6 months old - jumped our fence, hared out round our 10 acre field, where the sheep were grazing and brought all 150 of them back to us, then stood back about 30 feet and watched them graze - we didn't actually want them at that time but she wasn't to know that. She was shot over and never looked near any sheep.
The reason for explaining all this is to say that neither of my dogs was actually chasing the sheep, Malcolm wouldn't have stopped me calling Bobby if he had thought that and would have probably got to him faster than me and given him a good telling off, but if I had so wanted I could have used this episode to train either of them for sheep instead, so it is NOT just the domain of the collie!
It is my beliefe that although certain breeds have a bias to certain activities they can all be trained to do something different, with my apologies to any died in the wool collie owners. ;D
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thank you for that i was getting very excited thinking we could get the springer when someone piped up that having a springer or lab on our place could be a proplem as they would retrive our birds and kill them so now im not sure again as the dogs we have dont harm the birds and they havent been raised round livestock but we have no props with them so if we got a young pup which is what ive been looking at would the birds be safe or not as i now they are shooting dogs so dont realy want my beloved birds brought to me by a dog, but do want a springer as a sheepdog i like being a bit diffrent from the norm :wave:thank you
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My four Brittanys will retrieve my ducks without harming them, as they are bred from soft nouthed stock, and on the whole trained to give up to hand. I wouldn't be 100% sure of them all with my chickens though as they flap. My older dog would be OK as he was brought up going iin the chicken run with me, but he is absolutely obsessed by ducks. Mainly because he was sent for a runner as a youngster. If you obtain a pup from good quality working stock with a proven track record on retrieving without damage, and have it in the chicken and duck run with you every day, them hopefully it will not be interested in them. I suppose the advantage of a Springer over a Collie is that it is less likely to nip the heels of them sheep, but do train it to a whistle early on, and ensure the basic obedience is instilled from as soon as you get it at 8 weeks
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We've not had sheepdogs or working collies - but we used to have a labrador, she was trained as a gundog (and was very good at it too ;)) on one occaision when my dad shot a duck, she went off to retrieve it, spent a good 20 minutes looking for it and couldn't find it. The dog was understandably very miffed, when making her way back to my dad, she put up some partridges and without waiting for my dad to shoot them jumped and caught one mid-flight. He was presented with a very live and flapping bird to make up for her earlier loss ;) ;D
Anyway...... the point of the story is that labradors have very soft mouths, so if they do happen to retrieve something, there's a good chance it'll be okay ;)
I'm assuming though, that unless they've been taught specifically to retrieve they won't do it much and it would be possible to 'retrain' them not to do it, if they did ???
HTH
Karen :wave:
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thank you for your replys i can now discus the pros and cons with the old people bout which breed of dog to get , i know what i would like and also what my mum would like thank god the kids dont get a inbut in the desions on which dog to get , think we will be looking at the springers as its going be 2 against 1 and we always win as women are superior then men lol thank you
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Have one of each.
We have :-) I don't know why you'd bother to go against the grain when a collie is a delight to have about and herding sheep is in their bones so so much easier to teach.
Springers are great fun and mad, but I'd never have wanted to try to train Sam to herd, though he was perfect at retrieving anything (including chicks you wanted leaving with their mums, seedlings you'd just planted out.....) :D
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i had a springer before they are so loving and as we all ready have 2 dogs that we cant use as a sheep dog and i realy need a sheep dog as me mum is getting to old to be helping me bring the sheep in , well it is funny watching her try to run round the field trying to get the sheep where she wants them and i walk in to the field with a bucket and they coming running until they relise i want them in a pen then we start again i do like collies but i realy love springers but if its total impossiable to train a springer as a sheep dog then we will get a collie but not the standard black and white i like a nice slate and white or a red one , but as we have more then just sheep here im being sensiable on the breed and asking if its possiable to have the dog we would like or to go with the normal collie thank you
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on one occaision when my dad shot a duck, she went off to retrieve it, spent a good 20 minutes looking for it and couldn't find it. The dog was understandably very miffed, when making her way back to my dad, she put up some partridges and without waiting for my dad to shoot them jumped and caught one mid-flight. He was presented with a very live and flapping bird to make up for her earlier loss ;) ;D
Anyway...... the point of the story is that labradors have very soft mouths, so if they do happen to retrieve something, there's a good chance it'll be okay ;)
I'm assuming though, that unless they've been taught specifically to retrieve they won't do it much and it would be possible to 'retrain' them not to do it, if they did ???
HTH
Karen :wave:
Sorry to disagree Karen but NOT every labrador is soft mouthed - I heard of one Field trialer that was eliminated last season for hard mouth. It has to be in the breeding so you really do need to check the credentials of not only the dogs but also the breeder. They should be able to prove that the parents are soft mouthed. what your Dad's dog did was called 'pegging' and that is an elinmating factor too, and also she hadn't watched and marked the fall - or perhaps it was a 'runner'. But you are right about the retrieving - they should be born with the instinct to retrieve and bring to hand in good condition, but it is much more specialised that that for shooting, the dog needs to learn to go straight out to where the bird's fall was marked, so it needs to be taught to mark the fall. It also needs to learn to take commands of direction, just in case for any reason it didn't mark the fall and has to be handled onto a retreive or the bird was not shot cleanly and is running/winged, or it has fallen in a difficult place to reach. It then has to use it's nose to find it.
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Id say collie, having got one myself but also been a very keen shot and regulary see springer doing what they do, hunt. Thats what they are bred for the finding and flushing of game. Yes you could probably train a springer to do what a collie does but at the end of the day its going to be a whole lot harder than training a collie as its own insticts help it on the way.
I have a collie, who works as a sheepdog and comes out shooting and yes she will find birds and flush to the gun but doesnt have the natural ability to hunt like a springer.
So all in all go for a collie because they are a sheepdog and a springer is a gundog
or you could get a sprollie i think they call them a springer collie cross
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Annie, i do agree that sometimes hard mouths come from breeding but more times its due to the individual animal. Breeding in the dog i feel isnt the pinical of the dog because some of the best working dogs wouldnt make it in the trialing world, some dogs are just bred for trails but whats the point if thats all they can do?? Often in the shooting field dogs will stumble across a bird sitting tight and as we call it 'prick' a bird, but att the end of the day its another bird for the pot. Yes in a trailing worl they would be marked down but sometimes the best dogs come from parent who havent got generations of ftch and ftw but just good honest working parents.
Not having a go at anyone just voicing an opinion about trailing and breeding of dogs :)
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My GSP once retrieved some chickens belonging to a neighbour that had strayed. Soft mouthed he left not a mark on them but sadly they died of fright in any event.
I think it might take an exceptional Springer and exceptional training to make a working sheepdog out of a Springer. Having said that and looked a little further I was amazed to see a terrier on the list of potential herding breeds, namely the Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier. My Swedish Vallhund worked sheep and was excellent at it despite coming to it late in life. I retired him because he was taking a few knocks from time to time and Jacob horns are hard on a 12 year old. Vallhunds are really intended as cattle dogs though and that is where their natural abilities lie.
I was watching a 16 week old collie beginning to work sheep yesterday and her natural herding instincts are astonishing. But there are plenty of herding dogs around other than collies if you want something different so perhaps go for a Springer and one of the other herding breeds?
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Training a working collie is a lot of work and they need regular work to keep them sane. I don't see how many sheep you have - we have 20. There is no way we have enough work to justify a working dog. Maybe just work on the bucket following and have a springer for what springers do.
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at the moment we have 10 sheep but are trying to build them up a little it was we where advised to get a working dog due to the fact its normaly just me trying to bring them in as my parents are getting old and as my kids say im not young any more cheeky little blitters , it was quite funny when the shearer was here he had to catch 2 for me as no matter what i did just couldnt get them in the right area and the kids where no help rolling on the floor laughthing so after some disscusions at ahome and with some local farmers it was decided to get a sheep dog and as iwas after getting a springer thought i might ask if i could train it as a sheep dog my brothers think im funny he has them as gun dogs , but like the sound of a springer collie cross where can i find one thank you
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I think a springer / collie cross might give you the worst of all worlds. Improve your sheep handling facilities and work on the bucket. Ten sheep isn't enough to keep a working collie working unless you want to generate work and do trialling or something. I've got two collies and I'm speaking from experience ;D
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My first dog as a child was a springer/collie cross. He was a complete love and would play ball all day but I don't remember him 'herding' us on the beach as the next two dogs (both collies) did if we strayed too far apart.
We have 30ish sheep and gather them with a bucket - but then they are Rough Fells, noted for their love of food :D They are also in fields not up in the fell. If I had to gather them from the fell I would have to get my act together and train my collie properly!
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thank you all for your advice i still want a springer but might have to wait awhile but not to long , i did have a dalmation cross collie when i was younger he would herd everything but was a right handful but also a great gaurd dog , the sheep did come to the bucket but now after having some help in over the last couple of months they wont come near the feed bucket i think the help is part of the proplem so looks like more work on getting them back to the bucket ;D
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I have a 3 year old field cocker, and despite chasing birds from an early age, since we got the chickens a year ago he's made no attempt to "retrieve" them. Perhaps its because he's to busy stealing the eggs and eating their poo however ::) He also has a very soft mouth, and once brought a mouse in which didn't have a mark on it besides having a very soggy coat :) He's also been around our rabbit and chinchillas and treats them all with respect (except the odd indiscretion the cat, poor girl)
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Annie, i do agree that sometimes hard mouths come from breeding but more times its due to the individual animal. Often in the shooting field dogs will stumble across a bird sitting tight and as we call it 'prick' a bird,
A 'pricked' bird is one that has been shot at and not killed outright. If it can walk/run it is then a 'runner'. What you mention here is a 'pegged' bird. I would not expect any of my dogs to peg, they should point it and be given a command thereafter. I wouldn't want to eat a bird that had first been mauled by a dog I'm afraid. ::) However, that is entirely different to having a hard mouth. A bird that is pegged and still has it's ribs intact has been caught by a soft mouthed dog, one that has been caught by a hardmouthed dog would most likely have it's ribs caved in or limbs broken. Neither is then suitable for the table, as broken bones mean the meat can have splinteres through it. Admittedly it could also have shot in it but that is another matter - a discussion for those of us who shoot ;).
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annie do you shoot :farmer:
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annie do you shoot :farmer:
From the hip ;D Never heard "Annie, get your gun"?
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;D
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nah we still call it pricked mostly some people call it pegged im not bothered just thought id enter an opinion, but sometimes even the best working gundog with faultless breeding can become hard mouthed either because of training or just the dogs behavior, ive seen it a few times expecially in woking strins that arent worked.
Annie do u work your dogs in the field or trial or both??
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Isnt a bird shot but not killed called 'winged' thats what most people round my way call it???
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Getting back to grumpsgarden's original query... ;)
One the one hand I think it's nice for all animals to be allowed and encouraged to express their natural behaviours and not at all nice for them to have to have their natural behaviours trained out of them. So that would lead me to say have a sheepdog (doesn't have to be a border-type collie, there are other sheepdog breeds) for herding sheep and don't have a gundog if you have birds you don't want retrieved.
However I do absolutely agree with Rosemary, it's hard to keep a true working collie busy unless you number your sheep in the several hundreds (or are keen on trialling so will do lots of training with small numbers of sheep.)
So on balance, in your situation personally I think I would lean towards the lab or something else very trainable and happy to be doing anything you want of it but not bred specifically for finding and putting birds up. (Sorry I know you fancy a springer but wouldn't it always be fighting its instincts with all your birds about?)
The other thing that you could look at is a collie or collie-cross that isn't very interested in sheep so is not suitable for a larger farm but could do what you need and just be a nice chap/pess to have about.
Or pretty much any trainable breed other than a pointing / flushing one.
Or maybe, if you don't want to follow the herd, you could get and train a sheeppig? ;D
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Hi grumpsgarden :wave: Between me and rest of the family we have sheep, border collies, labrador, springer spaniel and 3 setters. In my opinion (for what it's worth) if you want a sheep dog - get a sheep dog (i.e. border collie, kelpie etc). Not all border collies are manic and some may be happy helping out one day a week with 10 sheep if you do plenty of other stuff with them. A springer is hard enough to train to do what hundreds of years breeding has prepared them for! Why make things difficult for yourself trying to train it to do something it wasn't bred for? I wouldn't be too worried about it retreiving all your birds - the strongest instinct is to flush ::) ::) The labrador seems to think it's a sheep dog because it spends a lot of time with the sheep, but wouldn't be much use when needed to pen up etc. Before we got the collie, I often used one of the setters to help move sheep from one field to another just by getting him to sit stay in strategic places ;D He didn't really know what he was doing it for and looked slightly worried ;D. Good luck with your choice of dog whatever you decide :)
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ahhh... we had a collie x springer as kids, she was great but not the smartest.
why dont u try and find a semi-retired collie?
what about a working beardie?
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Another option is to have a pet collie that is trained as a working dog, works for us :)
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thank you all for your replies , ive deced against a springer as it wouldnt be fair on it here with us so now undeced about getting a collie but have been otherd one witch is 8 weeks old but not from working stock so im taking a week or so to think about it as i dont think its fair to get a dog your not sure about :llama: :-\
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I would go with a sheepdog of some sort for sheep work and stick with a gundog for the different job.
If you think a Border Collie might be too much of a handful, how about a bearded collie?
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thank you all for your advise , i now have a collie pup he is great only had him for 3 days and all ready comes when called , my other dog at home is not to sure about this bunddle of energy she is to ladeback for his get up and go style, he is tri coloured ;D
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oh bless it would be lovely to see a picture :wave:
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i will try to get one today if he stays still long enough for me to take it , i took him to meet the pigs yesterday he wastnt to sure about them but then 7 4 month pigs are a shock on any dog when they have just been moved on to new grass, my other dog jumbed in with them just to make sure all the noise they where making was ok until one looked at her then she ran home and hid ::)
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It sounds like your going to have loads of fun, bless :wave:
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That's great news grumpsgarden, he sounds great. Pics (or vid if he won't stand still!) eagerly awaited :D
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i will try later today when ive got the last two :pig: fenced in to there new area and a naughty pony :horse: finaly caught and in a stable ,if i have any engery left i will try and get some pics but as im trying to get lots done before the kids are back and the new goats come in the next week or 2
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10 sheep is really not enough sheep to justify having a working dog. They aren't machines you just take out and they will round up your sheep for you. It takes experienced trainers years to fully train a dog to be a good sheep dog.
Please think about the welfare of your sheep, and if you insist on trying to train this dog to work sheep, get some lessons with an experienced trainer.
Frankly you would be far better to train your sheep to follow a bag of feed, it will be the easiest, cheapest and most sensible option.
If you wait til the grass is getting sparse over the winter and use a bag or bucket to feed the sheep some concentrates it will not take them long to come to you as soon as you shake a bag or bucket. Then build a little pen in the field and feed them in the pen. Then feed them in the pen with the gate closed. Do that all winter and they will be no problem to get in and they never forget.
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im not a complete idiot, i do know to train him as sheep dog i would need an experienced trainer but as i have said the collie ive got is not from working stock ,we may only have 10 sheep this year but we are going to be ingreasing them next year and the sheep do come to the bucket but they dont go in to the pen as they arnt stupid,
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Lots of border collies live happy lives as just pets - one as a pet with a
bit of work thrown in will be fine with the right training. I hope you enjoy your young puppy and hope to see some piccies pleeeeese???
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I agree with shep on this one my collie is quite content just being with me 'helping' (i say this very lightly) with everyday jobs and has a good eye for sheep still. As long as the dogs kept active you should have no problems. And as for a professional/experienced trainer i disagree, just use the dogs natural instinct read a few books or DVDs i did and worked out well, you just need patiience and common sence, like everything with animals give them time and dont rush them.
Good luck and let us know how you get on
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i will try ,the kids love him they only found out today after a 7 hour drive home from there dads and have kept him busey with fetch so im hoping they can wear him out enough to keep him still for some pics and there response was about time a dog that acts like a dog and not hide from the ball when its thrown like are mastif does , he is a quick learner and allreadys comes when called and is learning the basic as he plays , he has also learnt to stay away from the electric fence round the pigs unlike the mastif that has to sniff it every time she goes near it ::) thank you both ,i will be taking him to puppy classes only as a help with his training and i already have some books on sheepdogs
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tried to put pic of puppy but says it too large and im a diff when it comes to these things so dont now how to do it :-\
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Do you have Microsoft Picture Manager? If so open your photo and go to edit pictures, then on the right click on compress pictures, then on documents. That'll take it down enough - but save it with a different name so you keep the original photo size. Then when you close that program it'll ask if you want to save and say no!
Failing that email it to me and I'll do it for you.
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im not a complete idiot, i do know to train him as sheep dog i would need an experienced trainer but as i have said the collie ive got is not from working stock ,we may only have 10 sheep this year but we are going to be ingreasing them next year and the sheep do come to the bucket but they dont go in to the pen as they arnt stupid,
I train working collies and if you have a pup from a non-working strain it will require more work than a pup from a working strain.
The 'instint' in a working sheepdog is bred in, but if you get all your 'yard work' done before you let it off anywhere around sheep your in with a chance.
Do not ignore or take to heart this comment, as your going to end up with a pet collie that is a right pain in the arse if your looking to use it on livestock.
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my pup is doing great here , he is with me most of the time depending on what im doing and he his learning well im lucky as i have a dog trainer neer me who has given me lots of advice , he is a quick learner , he has meet the sheep only due to the fact that they are most days in the back by the door flipping things just cant seem to keep them in there own field think they think they should live in the house as well , but he was realy good and just sat by my side until i put him and the other dog back in doors , he does recall and sits we are now working on liedown , and i know a collie will a instint in working as i had a cross breed when i was younger it was a collie cross dalmation and he would round any thing and everything up also realy hard work as we lived in a town,he has now met all the animals we have here and the only proplem i have with him is with one of the cats he seems to not like him very strange , he sits and watches the pigs and is very good around the ponys he walks throw the birds well and dosnt chase any of them im always on the look out for advice which i get from some local farmers and i never turn any down even if they tell me im doing something wrong as we are all human and make mistakes .
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Glad you're enjoying your pup - pics?
We have two collies - Meg is from working parents and Tess was sired by the Devil ::) - neither work but they are great pets and enjoy pretending to be roughty toughty farm dogs. They're 11 now, though, and I don't think we'll be having collies next time.
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cant seem to get my pics small enough , he is doing well and was a realy good boy today as i was moving 7 pigs on to there winter area and my mum forgot he was meent to be in doors but he just sat out of the way while i spent the last 3 hours trying to move these pigs lol
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The more you have him with you the better it will be for him
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i do try keep him with me but i didnt want him chasing the pigs which was why he was meent to be in doors , he just showed me he was good boy and just watched me trying to get pigs to move past where there electric fence was he stayed out all the time and didnt bother with them or the ponys when they came to see why there was pigs going past there water , think they thought it was feed for them