The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: yankieGirl on August 07, 2011, 07:39:18 pm
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Do you folks worry about the economy (no more $ for socialistic programs here and over there) and the recent riots here and there in London?
Some of us over here don't think it is the end of the world but we prepare for tough times when the $ runs out and the programs that have nurtured at least 5 generations of people (across ALL racial lines) are for the first time forced to make it on their own without a monthly check from Uncle Sam. Also retired folks (like my parents) are faced with the fact that promises made are unable to be met (no social security check).
Just curious if this is on your minds.
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the riots this weekend in London have nothing whatever to do with the economy it will be more to do with opportunity after the man was shot by the police :farmer:
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the riots this weekend in London have nothing whatever to do with the economy
Except when people are busy (job) and have something to lose (family, home, etc)they tend to be less reckless.
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agreed.
i think there is a bit of dissinformation re usa economy tho, the usa's biggest creditor is not china (18%) but the fed reserve and other us creditors at 60%, so im sure you guys r gonna be just fine and dandy.
the euro zone crisis is a bit more concerning tho.
best we all buy gold!
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We are in one big deep mess from which it a lot of pain will be needed by a lot of people in many countries to fix. I think it will take a long time because there are no solutions which are politically acceptable for politicians who have voters. Actually I don't think there are any solutions that will fix this like was done in previous cycles because we haven't ever been quite so screwed-up in quite so many countries all at the same time before.
There are lots of stupid solutions being talked about. But the US has to default, even if only by devaluing the dollar so it repays its debts in toilet paper. And the Euro is such a pile of crap that it is hard to less the least worst way forward. Easy one should be Greece cos its small. But they aren't being allowed to default and quit the Euro cos a bunch of German banks will go belly up (OECD country risk was considered nil so banks weren't required to hold capital against Greek bonds). If Greece did default they could depreciate by half and recover competitiveness in tourism and agriculture. But Greece is small while Ireland is a bit bigger but Spain, Portugal and Italy are damn huge
And yes I think the riots are a symptom of the problem.
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The riots are nothing to do with the economy, what has a drug dealing gunman got to do with finance?
scum like that should be dragged out of cars and summary execution is too good for them.
why should the cop who shot him be put through a public enquiry for just doing his job?
look at the money he's saved the country in not having to keep the bastard in jail and support all his appeals.
the rioters were just there to cause trouble, rent a mob,
give the cop a medal and a bigger gun.
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The student riots earlier in the year were to do with the economy though and I was disgusted. The police were in the firing line (doing their job) and Britain's brainiest were throwing petrol bombs and the like at them - what hope do we have as a country if this is our future doctors, lawyers, architects etc?! My children were in front of the TV for a few minutes and said "if you ever do that, I'll bloody disown you!!"
we are all frustrated by the state of the economy but I don't 'get' how violence will improve things?!
I'm totally with Tizaala - half the time, these 'protesters' actually don't know what they are protesting about, they just jump on the bandwagon so they can get in on the looting, wanton damage and violence. and wave to their herbert mates on TV every opportunity they get ::)
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yankiegirl what happens to the weaker members of your society when the usa falls. you had starving people in the 1920/30s. our system maybe be rubbish but im glad we live in a country that does not require people to prove that they can pay for health care before they get treated. you may feel safe and it won't effect me but it will and you just had better be prepared when it does after all it will be your fault when your on the street and hungry.
this crap heap of banking was caused by the rich/super rich but as always its the poors fault. it was not the teenager on welfare that has got your country into this mess its your rightwing miltrisic/political system. what system is valid that will spend trillions on war and leave the old and sick to suffer. how much does the usa spend on weapons compared to health/education.
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yankiegirl what happens to the weaker members of your society when the usa falls. you had starving people in the 1920/30s. our system maybe be rubbish but im glad we live in a country that does not require people to prove that they can pay for health care before they get treated. you may feel safe and it won't effect me but it will and you just had better be prepared when it does after all it will be your fault when your on the street and hungry.
this crap heap of banking was caused by the rich/super rich but as always its the poors fault. it was not the teenager on welfare that has got your country into this mess its your rightwing miltrisic/political system. what system is valid that will spend trillions on war and leave the old and sick to suffer. how much does the usa spend on weapons compared to health/education.
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oops....trying to respond to the last post and pushed something wrong
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we aren't so far from your system (socialism, crippling, intrusive regulations affecting every aspect of our lives). And like your situation, we are running out of other people's money to pay for the freebies.
Yes, it would be nice to be able to provide all the perks to those who can't afford it but the unintended consequence is 5 generations of people who have been enslaved by gov't hand outs. They have NO idea how to help themselves(please don't claim that this is a fallacy. My town is loaded with these folks, I know them. No they aren't all evil, just doing what is human nature, taking the path of least resistance)
When the $ runs out...and it will...it has to unless we print more...HYPERINFLATION.
War...I don't know...what is your fix? I'm not happy with how things are going either but I don't think peace and love is realistic either.
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peace and love is what got us in this mess, all them damn hippys in the 60's turnin on, tunin in and coppin out. i know im the son of 2. both wasters.
i do love ben and jerrys tho!! ;)
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Between WW1 & WW2 we had 0 inflation, we were safe in the knowledge that the £ was on the Gold standard. for every £1 printed we knew the Bank of England had a piece of gold to cover it, the pound was strong.
We made stuff in this country , Heavy engineering, Textiles, etc. Then along came Harold Wilson in the sixties and lied to us about the pound being too strong so He devalued it. and so began the feast of Saint Rippoff.
The unions got too strong and demanded more money to make up the shortfall in their buying power.
Dear Maggie Thatcher decided that greed was good and paper shuffling was the way to go, Banking and Insurance would keep us all in the lap of luxury, We lost our manufacturing base and the skilled workers that went with it. Thank F..k we did not join in with the Euro , this situation will get worse before it gets better.
The 'good' news is : we can still afford to give £Billions away to third world toilets so that their corrupt governments can buy arms for genecide instead of tools and food.
Catastrophy is just around the corner and we are rushing headlong to meet it.
such a sad end for a once mighty country. ...come back Queen Victoria , all is forgiven.
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Over here if you discuss economic ideas and solutions that actually deal with reality rather than emotion(shetlandpaul) you are demonized. Is that the case there?
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who's reality. ask yourself this question who gains from these troubled times its no the normal man/woman its the rich who always come out of these things better off. its not your poor huddled masses that caused it or made it worse it was the rich and the greedy middle classes wanting to be like there betters.
having two right wing parties contesting for power will result in right wing policies. the poor are better for the economy than the rich. cut there jobs or welfare and you end up with a deeper recession.
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and a damn good riot just results in tougher laws and more police
The Clash - London's Burning [Single] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzPbNvIzMf0#)
;D
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The riots are nothing to do with the economy, what has a drug dealing gunman got to do with finance?
scum like that should be dragged out of cars and summary execution is too good for them.
why should the cop who shot him be put through a public enquiry for just doing his job?
look at the money he's saved the country in not having to keep the bastard in jail and support all his appeals.
the rioters were just there to cause trouble, rent a mob,
give the cop a medal and a bigger gun.
Unfortunately the above about sums up exactly what's gone on - massive knee jerk and violent (albeit in this case written) reaction.
The info coming out about the 'gunfight' that ended up with the death of an individual now seems that the bullets that have been recovered (from the police officer's radio and the victim) were both from police issue weapons..... I just hope that the final story that comes out does not resemble the complete web of lies that was the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes (sp?) in the tube at the Oval.
The rioters and looters are taking advantage of a situation - pretty typical that it is high value electrical shops being targeted, which is not reflective of unplanned venting of rage. They are undeniably criminals making use of the disturbances. I hope that when they are caught and found guilty that they will get decent terms behind bars and not flipping community service orders (WTF use are they?)
Interesting that Enfield and the West End had adequate police response to stop the flare-ups but Tottenham, Hackney, and Lewisham were left without support for ages.
I've lived in Hackney, Walthamstow and Brixton so I know the situation in these areas - not great to be a police officer there but still not everyone is a criminal.
Very glad we left Walthamstow in 2009
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Believe me Sudanpan , mine was not a knee jerk reaction, I strongly believe that if people put themselves outside the law then they forfiet the right to the protection of the law.
We the general law abiding citizens pay the Police to protect us from gun carying thugs. If in the coarse of doing that the criminal gets shot , then the police have done a good job, that criminal will not re-offend. the CPS WO'NT LET HIM OFF ON A TECHNICALITY. AND JUSTICE WILL HAVE BEEN DONE.
Thats the whole crux of the matter, we have too many laws and not enough justice.
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the poor are better for the economy than the rich. cut there jobs or welfare and you end up with a deeper recession
What?
Do you have a job? Are you part of the guilty "rich" ? Feeling guilty for working hard and having something to show for yourself? Being poor doesn't bestow upon a person a higher level of value, morality etc. Anymore than being well off. But:
WERE YOU EVER HIRED BY A POOR PERSON?
Amen tizaala! Here too!!
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Without any doubt this has nothing to do with the police shooting on Thursday......perhaps it is now time for a curfew and just shoot anyone on the street after 9pm tonight!!!!
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this has nothing to do with the police shooting. this is also rather serious. as i type there is rioting across london, alos in birmingham and leeds, rumours of croydon, coventry, mosside in manchester. now if that happens itll put hackney to a minor incident.
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It seems that any group of people can, if they wish, create a roit situation and hurl stones/rocks/petrol bombs at our police force. Set fire to property and loot shops and generally do what ever they like and the law just stands around and takes it.
The television coverage on tonights news showed gangs of these moronic hoodies having a real day out at the tax payers expence, as we have to pay to clear up the mess and damage.
BRING BACK THE BIRCH.
BRING BACK A BORSTAL SYSTEM.
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The economy has produced an environment where everything is available to those with money and nothing to those without. We celebrate the celebrity and the sportsman, pay them obscene amounts of money and watch them spend it with fascination, especially when they destroy relationships and their lives.
We love it when house prices rise because it makes us richer and therefore feel good. But at the same time it impoverishes our children, those same children who leave school ill-equipped for the world.
We love the choices and prices offered by the supermarkets so the local shops can go to hell. Except we can't afford to drive to the remaining shops, or to the schools or to the jobs.
That's what we've made out of our economy. It excludes people, some of whom turn to drugs and crime while some get rich from drugs and crime.
I don't have any answers. None of the politicians have answers (especially the Tea Party muppets). If you want to know how truly screwed-up it is then consider that Sterling has become a safe haven currency. That means the others are even worse...
So hang on to your smallholdings because they do and will make sense.
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Drag e'm off the streets, stick e'm in uniforms and send e'm to Afghanistan , why waste the lives of decent men when we could sacrifice these scum, mind you, they would probably join the taliban.
The worst problem now is the media coverage will only encourage idiots to follow the example.
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the poor are better for the economy than the rich. cut there jobs or welfare and you end up with a deeper recession
What?
Do you have a job? Are you part of the guilty "rich" ? Feeling guilty for working hard and having something to show for yourself? Being poor doesn't bestow upon a person a higher level of value, morality etc. Anymore than being well off. But:
WERE YOU EVER HIRED BY A POOR PERSON?
Amen tizaala! Here too!!
the poor spend the money that they have. if reducing the amount of money that the lower classes have you reduce the amount of money being circulated. no being poor does not make a person any better that does having a large pile of cash. however i can tell you that the cuts will be aimed at the poorer sections of the community. take the UK all the cuts have affected the poorer worse. lets take EMA(education maintenance allowance) which was paid to encourage the worse off to stay at school. now it may seem simple to cut theses fringe benefits however if a child can't then afford to stay on at collage/school whats the betting it will cost a lot more to look after that person for their life( odds are that even if they get a job it will be lower paid) same with the change in higher education funding. its going to put poorer families off from sending there children to uni. yet what do a number of Tory minister want to do cut the tax on the rich( no guessing how many rich Tory ministers there are).
now we should have nationalised the banks at the first sign of there failure without pouring 100s of billions into them. if we had the country would not be in such a bad state.
how do I know what it like for all my childhood i was brought up in grinding poverty it does not help the child or family for the state to make it harder to raise themselves out of poverty. now thanks to the chances that we have taken and been offered my kids will all do higher education and hopefully never have the pleasure of seeing there mother struggling to even buy a loaf of bread.
the mega rich very rarely earned it by hard work. yes i do work self employed and we earn at least the national average.
the rioters are just criminals they just are using the opportunity to riot and steal. the police could have been more active. the nicked 200 in 3 days yet the Birmingham police have done 80+ in a few hours. what happened to the skills they used on the students and other protests. the lads have been watching sky news for hours and not once did we see a snatch squad nick anyone.
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it is all good and well to comment on the what appears to be laid back approach by plod the rioters outnumber the police and always will
you can not deploy the methods used to quell the north African riots in the forty's (photograph the ringleaders seek them out eliminate them peace prevails until they can get reorganized and start again)
the student riots when the donkey lobed the extinguisher at the police it did take time BUT they were apprehended in the end
once you are in that position that you have to think on the heal and your life depends on that decision if you Carry guns in public even imitation ones then you have to suffer the consequences
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We Tea Party "muppets" (can I be one of the old guys that sit in the balcony of the set?!! Wrong gender but it captures my overall attitude!) want to end ALL of the freebies across economic the strata.
FYI...there is no actual "Tea Party". It is a grassroots movement. No leader. Just little pods of people meeting in library community rooms or private citizen's livingrooms. There are a few subsets that are more organized. However it is not, contrary to what the media portrays, a well funded puppet group comprised of unsuspecting red neck dopes clinging to our guns and Bibles (well maybe the last two items).
Both the Republicans and Democrats hate us and are terrified of the movement because to this point, it can't be controlled and it doesn't follow a party line.
The main Tea Party message: return to a fiscally responsible, constitutional republic. WE ARE OUT OF $$$$$$!
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Between WW1 & WW2 we had 0 inflation, we were safe in the knowledge that the £ was on the Gold standard. for every £1 printed we knew the Bank of England had a piece of gold to cover it, the pound was strong.
We made stuff in this country , Heavy engineering, Textiles, etc. Then along came Harold Wilson in the sixties and lied to us about the pound being too strong so He devalued it. and so began the feast of Saint Rippoff.
The unions got too strong and demanded more money to make up the shortfall in their buying power.
Dear Maggie Thatcher decided that greed was good and paper shuffling was the way to go, Banking and Insurance would keep us all in the lap of luxury, We lost our manufacturing base and the skilled workers that went with it. Thank F..k we did not join in with the Euro , this situation will get worse before it gets better.
The 'good' news is : we can still afford to give £Billions away to third world toilets so that their corrupt governments can buy arms for genecide instead of tools and food.
Catastrophy is just around the corner and we are rushing headlong to meet it.
such a sad end for a once mighty country. ...come back Queen Victoria , all is forgiven.
Hear hear. PLUS.....in the good old days, youngsters respected the police and respected their elders. These days many parents live in fear of their offspring. I think that water cannons should be used, but the water should be doctored, to have florescent dye put in AND itching powder. If the little ba**ards are busy scratching themselves, they wont be able to loot.
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The main problem the police have is a lack of clear public mandate. If they are decisive and fierce with rioters they are hauled through enquiries, if they stand back they are criticised for doing nothing.
As for shooting people - it's very easy, sitting in our kitchens, to criticise trigger-happy marksmen but I wonder how many of us have been in the noise and confusion of armed situations and had a split second to decide whether we were going to die or shoot. I haven't - but I've listened to my hubby and his colleagues who have. They're not blasé about shooting but say it's all very well after the event finding out a gun or bomb was fake or whatever, but you don't know that at the time. If you wait, you might die. Hubby (and his police dog :D) have medals for bravely facing and dealing just this situation - they had no gun that time but the criminal did.
The several generations of workless bother me a great deal. I wish we had some sort of system where you had to do community work in return for your 'community wage' ie benefits. There is so much road mending, painting of schools and houses etc. etc. that is needed and it would be so much better for people than sitting about either feeling useless or finding the wrong things to do. Maybe two levels of benefits, minimal if you don't do community work, enhanced if you do.
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i think most of us are in agreement that the current economical situation in this country is hitting the poorer classes the hardest. I work full time, earning around the national average, but my salary seems to be spreading thinner and thinner on a monthly basis. I have no idea how low income families are surviving. As well as the impact to personal finances, the impact on the community is starkly apparent. In North Ayrshire, we have closed many of the public buildings, and many more have been given a reprieve for 1 year, as have the local libraries, something I find appalling. Several local galas and fetes have either been down scaled or had council money completely withdrawn. These may seem like a small thing, but they are incredibly important for keeping community spirit. As we live in a small rural community, there is little to entertain the young people in the area, so cutting that even further will just result in more of them getting into trouble. Long gone are the days when kids would entertain them by disappearing into the countryside to chase rabbits or make tree houses, unfortunately they now go armed with a couple of bottles of buckie and a can of petrol to start a "bonfire"
You want to talk about why rioting is breaking out? As far as I can see (and this is purely my opinion) it has nothing to do with economy on the face of it, but if you look at the root cause economy and class are inflaming an old wound. You can't possibly tell me that a high percentage of those rioters give a damn who was shot, its purely an opportunity to fight back at society with the only thing they know - violence.
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You want to talk about why rioting is breaking out? As far as I can see (and this is purely my opinion) it has nothing to do with economy on the face of it, but if you look at the root cause economy and class are inflaming an old wound. You can't possibly tell me that a high percentage of those rioters give a damn who was shot, its purely an opportunity to fight back at society with the only thing they know - violence.
Yes, I think so too, or maybe even just a chance to show how fed up they are with their lives. But they seem not to do anything constructive to improve them?
Why have kids lost the ability to amuse themselves relatively harmlessly? That somehow seems connected to me with the lack of being prepared to work later in life, but i don't know why it's happened?
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Being in London's east end right now it would appear the need for a flat screen TV / new pair of trainers has motivated many rioters and the surplus is being sold off at £20 a go out the back of a lorry. Seriously though several people in my team can't come into work because it's not safe to leave their homes. Even when at home people had their homes broken in to last night and now they're afraid to leave to go to work.
It would appear all available Police are being called in for robust response over the next 24 hours and we've been told no Police will be available for mental health act assesments until further notice.
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We seem unprepared to deal with such poor behaviour. The human rights of the poor folk who are having their businesses and houses burned seem to being ignored.
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The rats and thugs who were fed with violent video games and action movies during their childhood are coming out of their holes. Messed up minds with testosterone out of control. I must ask some of you how you can compare legitimate protests (like on university fees) with this??? These stupid and criminal bastards make peaceful protests impossible from now on as police and government will understandibly be on full alert - no matter the cause for protests or civil disobedience, be it the environment or social issues. All will be seen as the same - unrest. :&>
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Even when at home people had their homes broken in to last night and now they're afraid to leave to go to work.
Let me guess...homeowners are not allowed to have a weapon. So sad.
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if you kill an intruder here you go to prison at least for manslaughter. Even if you hurt them they can sue you :&>
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if you kill an intruder here you go to prison at least for manslaughter. Even if you hurt them they can sue you :&>
Oh. WOW! ...thanks for the info. Maybe I should stay out of this discussion since I am unaware of your laws. I will look even more silly than usual making comments on issues I know little about.
Wait....when did that ever stop me in the past?
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yes and if they break in to your house and they get savaged by your dog you are done for keeping a dangerous animal and the dog destroyed
o and they do not get charged with breaking in f*****g mental at least in America you have the right to defend yourself and your property
still does not stop the criminals from persuing there profession in America :'(
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still does not stop the criminals from persuing there profession in America
Agreed. Evil is always with us. However, in the states that don't have rediculous gun control laws, The evil doer has to ask himself, "Do I feel lucky?"
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Just been told Police advsiing various GP surgeries and businesses in east End to shut early today and we're all being advised to get back early from home visits and leave work early if travelling through identified hotspots on the way home then basically stay off the streets tonight. Even more glad we've moved to Lincolnshire now so long as I can still get a train home tonight !
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extreme. you failed to notice that there have been two invasions of a house and a shop. both robbers were stabbed to death the home owner is off the hook the shop keeper will get off in the end. shooting people for theft would still get you done for murder. and yankie girl not everyone thinks your gun control is a sane method your killing more home owners than thieves. again we got rid of our need to carry weapons in the late 18th century shame your country men are still waiting for us to invaid again.
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both robbers were stabbed to death the home owner is off the hook the shop keeper will get off in the end. shooting people for theft would still get you done for murder.
Hurray for the good guys!!! You're now allowed to take a KNIFE to a GUN fight!!! Much more civilized! Such progress.
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well for what it is worth i think this has the makings of a good thread and your dry sense of humour or tongue in cheek views has made me laugh more than once would these miscreants be rioting if it was -30 and three feet of snow maybe to many es in there smarties or skittles there is footage of one stunned youngster being assisted and robbed of his spoils/belongings classic :farmer:
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Ok this is my last post on this thread. I'm making funnies at your expense on a topic that is very up close and personal for some of you. Sorry. I'm 45 and I still need my dad to ping my ear and say, "Ok, that's enough!" Only now my hubby does this and he's at work.
I do watch the riots with interest and not just a bit of apprehension. As your culture goes, so goes ours in time.
Stay safe!!!!!!!!!!
PS. maybe to many es
I know smarties and skittles but what is "es"?
Thanks for the discussion.
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es are the e numbers that are in food and sweets they make children go hyper the same as food colouring :farmer:
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yes and if they break in to your house and they get savaged by your dog you are done for keeping a dangerous animal and the dog destroyed
o and they do not get charged with breaking in f*****g mental at least in America you have the right to defend yourself and your property
still does not stop the criminals from persuing there profession in America :'(
I do believe that this is swinging to the side of the victim, Robert. At least, I hope so! As for the riots, the police can do bugger all, only stand in a line with riot sheilds and squirt water at them ::) ::) Where are are the army?(those that aren't off fighting someone else's war!!) A full platoon of soldiers fully armed will, I'm sure make these waste of spacers think twice.
I'm all for legitimate protests and the right for anyone to speak their mind but not this mindless violence by people who will spark off a riot at the drop of someone else's hat >:( >:(
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Returning to fiscal responsibility is great but needed to happen a long time ago. Threatening to default the US debt was a really neat stunt that has had some scary consequences.
Job creation numbers in the US are notoriously unreliable (they're persistently revised downwards months later) but show that at best the economy is treading water. Shrinking the economy in that situation will put a few more million out of work, which will shrink the economy further, cause more people to lose their houses, bigger problems with asset values and bust more banks. The assumption always is that the US entrepreneurial environment will grow its way out of any downturn. Well this time looks different.
Here's a few issues:
1. Asset values (like house prices) have risen too far based on excessive supplies of credit (bank debt). When the music stops, the first loser is the homeowner but the second and bigger loser is the bank. We all hate banks but when banks lose money they stop lending and business can't borrow, can't prosper. Eventually banks go bust and that definitely is bad cos the FDIC only picks up some of the deposits
2. The country is spending more than it earns (the current account deficit) which cause the overall borrowings to get bigger, which makes the current account deficit bigger.
3. Depreciating the currency is a tricker option when you're the global reserve currency AND there's a queue of other countries trying to depreciate theirs too. It's a zero sum game
Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are providing leadership or solutions. Both are looking at the presidential elections, so classic short term crap is going to be the rule. Is anyone talking of downsizing the military (massive job losses, but a massive waste in weapons programmes) or addressing the humungous fraud in Medicare and Medicaid
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theres a lot of naievety being shown on this thread imho.
i have worked with innercity getto kids, lives there are cheap, they play for keeps, you step up or step out, the gang culture is born out of a dire need to protect yourself. drugs, unfortunately, are at its root as they are the only method these kids have to make some money. you cant say 'get a job' if there are no jobs, you cant say 'educate yourself' if the schools are crap. 'no hope no future no point, lets all riot, and get a flatscreen innit'
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theres a lot of naievety being shown on this thread imho.
i have worked with innercity getto kids, lives there are cheap, they play for keeps, you step up or step out, the gang culture is born out of a dire need to protect yourself. drugs, unfortunately, are at its root as they are the only method these kids have to make some money. you cant say 'get a job' if there are no jobs, you cant say 'educate yourself' if the schools are crap. 'no hope no future no point, lets all riot, and get a flatscreen innit'
Sorry, but that's no excuse for the mindless violence and larceny we have seen on the TV today. Not every single black inner city child follows this path, and infact, according to the news just now, many of those in court today were from out of the area, and were educated, ie graduates. They know they are doing wrong, and if they are so proud of what they are doing, why do they cover their faces. They are mindless cowardly thugs who deserve all the punishment they get including a pasting from the police. If they dont want the punishment, they should keep well away. They have been warned today by the Prime Minister after all. Im just so glad that my daughters company have sent everyone home this afternoon, she lives in Swindon.
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i didnt say it was an excuse, just a reason. and if there are educated graduates involved then what does that say?
these educated graduates are rioting. didnt something similar happen in the late 60's in france?
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extreme. you failed to notice that there have been two invasions of a house and a shop. both robbers were stabbed to death the home owner is off the hook the shop keeper will get off in the end.
Good, because I feel the law is on the wrong side here. The latest I read about was the robber who sued for having been beaten up when he broke into a house at night.
shooting people for theft would still get you done for murder. and yankie girl not everyone thinks your gun control is a sane method your killing more home owners than thieves. again we got rid of our need to carry weapons in the late 18th century shame your country men are still waiting for us to invaid again.
I agree with you, Paul, and Michael Moore, on that the US gun laws don't do anything for reducing crime. Knives and firebombs are bad enough....
Don't take it personally, Yankiegirl...:&>
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i am not and will no excuse what i see on tv at the moment, but the reasons are plain to see,
if you dont have a stake in society then you have nothing to lose, the youth of today have been ignored for far too long by our political classes and it has to stop.
kids need to be engaged in the decision making process that effect their future, im not sure how this can be achieved but if we continue to ignore them we will reach a tipping point and it will be too late.
give them a sense of worth so they at least have something to lose
kn
time to ruffle some feathers
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yup bang on.
these kids, have NO HOPE, never going to own a house, no jobs so they can even try to. nothing.
im not quite 40, when the early 90s recession hit, you could still find work if you really wanted it, i did. this generation cant.
i think that the fact the targets are shops, rather than actually fighting the police (like in the good old days:)), says it all.
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As well as a very robust response to such awful behaviour I think the biggest way to change things is to ensure there's decent work.
Where I grew up (steel works and pits) work used up excessive energy and provided a structure and discipline. Older blokes looked after the younger ones but kept them in line too. Sure, Fri and Sat nights were quite lively, once folk had been paid, but the supervisors drank in the same pubs and kept the excesses in check. Plus folk had to be able to get up in the morning, or they let the whole shift down.
If you've no hope of work, ever, and your family has no history of work, what are you to do?
Deep, posted at the same time as you - seems we think the same way :-)
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Firstly, Come back Yankiegirl. You have valid opinions!
Secondly. I live in the innercity Birmingham area and I experienced some real sh*t last year outside of riots but have managed to avoid any trouble thus far this time.
The problem is a lack of respect.
The 'youff' of today respect nothing! Not even themselves! Add to this, a culture of I want, I MUST have - NOW! It is inevitable that these attacks on shops etc will happen.
The police have been castrated by past instances where they have hit innocent people and been hauled over the coals. This time, they stood back while the peaceful protest turned violent and didn't respond quickly enough or hard enough.
The cowardly low lifes who then cover their faces while burgling shops then decide that they will chance it and sometimes get away with it and the word spreads and more of these morons jump on the bandwagon.
One answer is to bring back some form of national service. Get some of the army guys who are being 'let go' in the cuts, to run a two year camp where anyone 14 to 25 who is found guilty of these types of offense has to live and abide by army rules - NO EXCEPTION! If they start off physically unfit, they will get fitter but what it will do is teach respect. Firstly for yourself, then for others and their property.
I should say that I am a shop keeper, so I have a vested interest....................and I will defend my property!
Ian
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I think the "human rights" balance has got completely out of kilter.
If you are holding a weapon in a public place then your rights are severely circumscribed. It's only in Westerns where the other guy has to draw before you can shoot him. I don't want policemen put in danger so that someone's "rights" aren't infringed.
Not least because my 19 year old is somewhere out there tonight. Body armour and pepper gas are not enough when the odds are stacked that much against them.
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Sorry if I missed the point of if some one has said it already but I have only skimmed through these posts, they are interesting but I am multitasking and not concentrating, any way, in my opinion, the police were onto a BIG drug dealer who has power and that shooting, who ever is to blame and who ever was innocent etc, is used as a trigger for the BIG Crook to pull his army in, he is probably so well connected he can summon up more support than any MP or the Police can, then the opportunists and those who follow any form of fights join in and the Big UNS leave it to them..... Not condoling anything as its the poor normal people who get the *hit end of the stick as in all wars""""""
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Firstly, I could have gone behind the screen of another name or as a guest - as is increasingly done so sadly 88 guests at one time today and 5 members? ::). I choose not to, so as to be counted. Increasingly folk seem to want to listen into the forum (under a cloak of invisibility) and react when they want under their 'name' or maybe a new one? Strikes me a bit like a mob as seen in the riots, headless chickens, scared sheep rather than an organised pack of hounds?
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???
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Firstly, I could have gone behind the screen of another name or as a guest - as is increasingly done so sadly 88 guests at one time today and 5 members? ::). I choose not to, so as to be counted. Increasingly folk seem to want to listen into the forum (under a cloak of invisibility) and react when they want under their 'name' or maybe a new one? Strikes me a bit like a mob as seen in the riots, headless chickens, scared sheep rather than an organised pack of hounds?
I wonder if I should be afraid then? ::) I never log out! ;D
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at least whilst typing here, im proving im not torching lidl, only in manchester, loot lidl, not m&s, lidl
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Sometimes I log out if I remember as I thought that people would know if I am home or not, I like a bit of privacy and as my daughter said she knew I was out as I was not on FB, I have started signing out more and more!!!! Often reasons are not sinister at all just practical and I am often far too open for my own good!!
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The 'youff' of today respect nothing! Not even themselves! Add to this, a culture of I want, I MUST have - NOW! It is inevitable that these attacks on shops etc will happen.
The police have been castrated by past instances where they have hit innocent people and been hauled over the coals. This time, they stood back while the peaceful protest turned violent and didn't respond quickly enough or hard enough.
The cowardly low lifes who then cover their faces while burgling shops then decide that they will chance it and sometimes get away with it and the word spreads and more of these morons jump on the bandwagon.
One answer is to bring back some form of national service. Get some of the army guys who are being 'let go' in the cuts, to run a two year camp where anyone 14 to 25 who is found guilty of these types of offense has to live and abide by army rules - NO EXCEPTION! If they start off physically unfit, they will get fitter but what it will do is teach respect. Firstly for yourself, then for others and their property.
I should say that I am a shop keeper, so I have a vested interest....................and I will defend my property!
Ian
[/quote]
Sorry but where are their families, friends and associates? Just saying NO! those of us who do not stand are the most cowards. For the vast majority of folk in the UK there is no need to steal food or take from others to gain shelter and protect for your life. Force, aggression, guns, knives, shouting are not the answer here. This is not a war situation. I do not think having these people in the army of today (unless otherwise trained) would be helpful - Captain or others would have a more up-to-date and pertinent view - I believe we have gone past 'cannon fodder' and that our forces and police need the best not the least of society to be in their fold
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::) ::) Not a dig, especially at you :pig: :cat: :chook: :cow: :dog: :goat: :horse: :llama: :bunny: :wave: :wave: the other 80 odd though ;D ;D
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:wave: :wave:, I sometimes say I am out with the dogs or going o ut with them on FB and that got me worried as we kepa B&B and the men that are here now are brilliant but, occasionaly they forget to shut the front door so any tom dick or harry can walk in and steal my chocolate cake :wave: :wave: :wave:
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Firstly, I could have gone behind the screen of another name or as a guest - as is increasingly done so sadly 88 guests at one time today and 5 members? ::). I choose not to, so as to be counted. Increasingly folk seem to want to listen into the forum (under a cloak of invisibility) and react when they want under their 'name' or maybe a new one? Strikes me a bit like a mob as seen in the riots, headless chickens, scared sheep rather than an organised pack of hounds?
How do know about these guests. And can you find who is online? It never occurred to me to be a guest but my login seems to be automatic.
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go to http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php) or first line in header and now 69 guests and 9 users (with names)
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just changed to 66 with shearling, Roxy, nihicib2, conman, Sandy, yankieGirl, waterhouse, mattjen, darkbrowneggs
online
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:wave: I'm to unfit to riot, thats the answer!
I heard from people where I used to live stuffs going on there too!!!!!
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just changed to 66 with shearling, Roxy, nihicib2, conman, Sandy, yankieGirl, waterhouse, mattjen, darkbrowneggs
online
Rather less a community and more a secret society then, tho' I imagine Dan has all their IP addresses.
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of course this thread is being read by "anonymous guests" or watchers. It's called google key word search. A bit late for intelligence - and it's not us that have to be watched! But the more popular this forum gets the more people will have a snoop on what we have to say - it is there for all to read. :&>
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he may well have there ip address but you can still get in without an ip address i have done this on another site it was run by teckie wiz kids (adults) :farmer:
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Why can't GCHQ block the Blackberry signal, apparently this is how they are organising the riots, If these parasitic creatures are so diss-enfranchised how come they can afford Blackberries in the first place. The Blackberry signal is encrypted so it can't be intercepted by the police, this is why it is favoured by the druggies, but it could be blocked.
How come news at ten could show what was being transmitted by the organisers? did they get ex News of The World reporters to hack the signals for them?
Yes GCHQ , WE KNOW YOU READ OUR POSTS. Sign in you nosey sods.
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after posting i clicked on the status 109 guests that would not be plod searching riot as key word just think armed responce units at our doors to prevent rioting in the denny/ochil hills ye can tak our wife and weans but you canny tak our freedom :D :farmer:
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Lol, I really didn't understand the guest/sign in talk - it never occurred to me anyone would be remotely interested in what I was doing online :D Mind you, seriously rebellious people, these smallholders ;)
Yeh, we'd have an issue trying to raise a riot here - two elderly farmers, me, a couple with two small kids.....lots of sheep :D
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just think if they search key words disposal killing home kill castration guts stringing them up some poor sod searching this site with little or no understanding of farming immagine having to explain to so19 what you are doing
just had another thought we are world wide we talk to yankie girl(the one that started this thread) maybe she is known to the FBI :P
who knows who cares :farmer: hi ya eariwigers :farmer:
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Can I come in here and say something positive? I have skimmed through your conversations....hey what is happening in England is so sad!! We are a dignified nation - I beleive- and this undermines our social strengths. Very Sad!!
Anyway, some one mentioned 'Yootts'. I just want to say please remember this is a minority. My son had a sixteenth birthday party (7 years ago) we had thirty teenagers at that party, and several of my adult friends- BBQ, beers and wines etc. We treated them with respect... like adults, and they responded. We all had a fantastic afternoon and evening, they were a delight to have around, fun, clever, witty, and interested in mixing with us too. These kids, young teenagers, came from ALL sorts of social, educational and financial backgrounds, were on first appearnces wild and scarey.. and yet every one of them treated us and our home with respect. They all stayed overnight...I think some didnt actually sleep. Most got a bit tipsy, some got a bit drunk; yet when we said enough they slowed down. I got up the following day to find them all tidying up, hoovering etc. My house was left cleaner than it started. I was really impressed. We had total breakages of two glasses. No other damage at all.
These kids were not swats, goody-two-shoes, just ordinary scary looking young folk ; Moshers, Emos, Punks, with all the high jinks we would expect..
That experience seven years ago was so good, we have had many many such parties for birthdays and other celebrations and have never had any complaints. Last New Year we invited a huge gang of them (including folk from USA, and AUS) for the hogmany Ceilidh at the local hall. My Kirkinch Gang (as they were labelled) were the life and soul of the Ceilidh, dancing and partying with all the locals young and old. It made my heart swell with pride!
One or two from the original party occasionally come and visit my husband and I, we sit and chew the fat, put the world to rights etc. We listen to their dreams and encourage them. There are two in particular who were told at school... that they would never acheive anything... that they should settle on working in a shop in Dundee (eg B&Q or MFI )!! Unfortunately their parents beleived the schools. >:( >:( We have pushed and challenged them to think bigger and to expand horizons, and they have now completed college, are landscape gardeners, brimming with confidence and self awareness. GO boys!! these two could have easily been labelled as no hope thugs!!
It can be done! I have faith in people and so far it has been rewarded.
A small contribution, perhaps.
Emma T
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at least whilst typing here, im proving im not torching lidl, only in manchester, loot lidl, not m&s, lidl
;D ;D ;D
I think pikililly is right. I'm not excusing what's being done. But you can't just have "stick" there has to be "carrot" and for many of these kids, there's no "carrot", at least no legitimate one. But I'm as bad as anyone - it's someone else's job to sort it. Do I support any youth organisations? Do I offer to help run a youth club? Do I offer to have my nephew here, who's in danger of going off the rails? No. It's the Cooncil's job to occupy the yoofs leisure time (with knitted youth workers, I assume). Or it's the schools, or the Police or parents (and let's face it, some are inadequate but some just need help). Maybe communities have to get involved in supporting young folk - and that includes us.
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I think Rosemary/Pikalilly are right, for far to long many of us have sat back and done nothing but a lot of this is because of the politically correct society in which we live, for example these days you daren't approach a child for fear of being accused of a paedophile! or try to encourage an older child to be accused of 'grooming' them.
OH employs a lad from our nearest urban conurbation Middlesbrough and he told OH his teenage son was getting involved in things he didn't like, thankfully the kid loves his football so we have agreed to sponsor him thro a football apprenticeship with a local team. He knows that if he sdoesn't behave he'll be kicked out and he'll have let his dad and us down. At heart he's a real good kid and just needs that extra bit of guidance and encouragement. We don't have any children of our own which means we can help but there are many other good kids out there who could be helped if only society and its sick minded attitudes would change.
Mandy :pig:
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yay! there are folk who think like i do!
There is a time and a place for the capital approach...but if we can give the kids the environment to sit back and gain the realisation that there are things to do, places to go, and oportunities to be created. Note 'created', not 'had' ! I am afraid to say that my two (above) examples came from families whose horizons were living and working in Dundee, get married young, have kids and maybe be on the social, combined with a bit of wheeling-dealing on the side to pay for a holiday in Newport. The boys had never ever heard the suggestion that they could go places, explore, expand..etc They have so much potential that they just did not recognise or realise..the boys had at various points overheard us talking to our kids..and just plain asked for advice!!! :D :D
Maybe we are lucky to have kids with a positive mental attitutde. Heaven knows, my son could have been a nightmare. He had real troubles to start with. half deaf, half blind, dyspraxia, dyslexia etc. But i threw him in at the deep end, normal mainstream school, karate, skiing horseriding, football...you name it...and boy did he struggle to overcome his difficulties, and he had a really hard time at school. He could have been a grabbing, selfish thug, but he is a spirited guy who knows his oportunities have to be created.
I think that what I have seen on TV is kids being guided to the wrong type of oportunity. Did you see the news item with the older guy (adult) holding the broken window up and calling to the youngsters to climb in to the shop....my point exactly!!
Emma T (ps I really am not a patronising, nosey, busy-body..)
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Many years ago (but not THAT many), I worked for a company that used Falkirk College for training staff. One of the lecturers, in catering, used to organise a trip every year for his students (basic grade catering) to London. He took them to the Ritz for afternoon tea, a show, other catering establishments. The powers that were wanted to stop this, saying that the kids didn't need to have tea at the Ritz as they were only basic grade catering students from Falkirk and woudl probably end up flipping burgers in Macdonalds. The lecturer's argument that that was all they would ever be unless they were shown something else to inspire them. Needless to say, the trips stopped. Shame.
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These are frightening times, sickening times, quite un-understandable times and although I am not joining the two or many subjects together - is anyone actually surprised thats riots have taken place - all we were waiting for was the chrysalis, its been brewing and all knew it didnt we?
We've had many acts of civil disobedience in the last year or so - yes the riots are the thick end of the stick, the anarchy and violence involved is the most frightening part - but are all the means, mechanisms and reasons of these 'protests' actually linked right back to the way the country and society is being run?
Today we see big companies, banks and governments committing fraud, cooperate crimes and major tax evasions on a daily basis all broadcasted on national news but we see nothing changing. We see government and councils stripping back our public services, help and support for the needy, pricing education out of the reach of many, freedoms being stripped away from the individual but corporations still being given a free reign, hiding behind their own legal identities.
Sure I am playing as the devils advocate here - my first reaction would be to arrest them all, take all their benefits away and shove them into a corner to be forgotten about - but will this solve the problem? After all - its the problem we have to solve, its no good continuously trying to clean up after.
Youths are angry - everybody is angry - we are all losing faith in the system that keeps us safe from each other (anarchy)
I feel totally let down by the state and I dont even live anywhere near any riots - now that we have these riots we need to show the strong hand of the state - but we should have never let it get this far.
My biggest fear is the pictures we saw last night of groups protecting their own - yes I feel that to a certain extent its great to see community spirit - but its not upto the individual to uphold law - the law needs to be emotive. - If we dont watch we will have vigilante killings and they will be within or between specific 'groups' of our society, they will alienate themselveas from each other and before we know it we dont have gangs of kids running around - we will have gangs of adults fighting in the streets for their turf.
I have not cried so much watching the news for a long time - this is a country thats tearing itself apart. The divides are fracturing into chasms.
Baz
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I agree with the tones of what Rosemary and Baz are saying here. We are, generally, and historically, a nation of uninspiring adults, we play safe, dont get involved, dont want to be seen as unusual or dynamic; we're are not proactive really, when we do react its in a less than positive way, a knee jerk. . When occasionally someone is forward thinking, inspiring or creative the Powers snuff it out, smother it and crush the spirit into grey subserviant mush.
Maybe these people who are creating mayhem, creating unease and unrest, and creating problems for us bland humdrum folk will become the Catalist Creaters of something better for the future...eventually!
I dunno...I'll just crawl under a rock and come out in then years time to have a peek!
Emma T
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yet we have tesco and pals being fined for stealing off there customers by fixing prices. are they made to drop the price of milk and cheese for the same amout and for the same time of course not. 50 million spread over 4 supermarkets and 5 processors. chicken feed to them.
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''Youths are angry - everybody is angry - we are all losing faith in the system that keeps us safe from each other (anarchy)''
What right have they got to be angry, the world does not owe them a living, the teenage boys that got slaughtered in the trenches in ww1 had a right to be angry. The teenage Jews that were gassed in ww2 had a right to be angry. Our boys getting their legs blown off in Afghanistan have a right to be angry. These worthless pieces of crap have forfeited any rights they might have had , stop making excuses for them , they made the choice between right and wrong.
Ps. forgot to say the people who have to pay for this mess to be cleared up have a right to be angry.
and the people who have to pay to keep the bastards in jail have a right to be angry. OH dear, thats all of us!
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THEY HAVE NOT PAID THE FINE YET and the last time the oft tried to fine a suppermarket the oft backed down :farmer:
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My biggest fear is that its too late and not(never) enough - we have lost a generation which is why the rioters (mostly) have spanned gender, race and class. The only thing linking them is age - and does that not say something?
Yes these 'kids' are demanding, but isnt every child?
As a child I dreamt of creating a world where children like me (as a child) didnt feel so outside the circles of reality and so damned mixed up - but I never saw it through - I lost spirit, I became someone with the phrase 'charity starts at home' in my mind - well charity does start at home really and I'm glad I have helped.
Fighting, using and taking on a global scale at a government levels seems to be AOK - is it any surprise that when we look at the youths starting these riots we are looking in a mirror.
I gota say when I was a kid I was well into the idea of anarchy (partly because I didnt know what it entailed) - but these riots just show that from chaos its only the strong who will survive.
I am not strong enough to survive, I would be killed.
Parliament should not have a summer holiday for these reasons - it should not take a week for them to discuss this s**t. Surly its a full time job running a country and the salary and benisits reflect this.
Baz
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If only people had to pass exams in parenting before they were allowed to have kids, a sterilising pill before pubity that was only reversible after passing with honours.
How many of us would not have been born?
How many would remain childless?
how much of the present trouble would have been prevented?
Can a gang bitch who's had 17 abortions be described as a crime prevention officer?
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You can only teach a dog, sheep, goat or anything through reward bases structures - why is it any different for children - if parents dont have the opportunity or means to offer reward where does that get us? I whole load of kids who know nothing except being put over their mums knee and struck or getting home to a dad that knocks them into line?
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If only people had to pass exams in parenting before they were allowed to have kids, a sterilising pill before pubity that was only reversible after passing with honours.
And what would the curriculum be? And how would you pass? Who decides who gets the pill?
The Daily Mail?
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My fear is that the West and probably many other parts of the world, too, has lost a big part of a generation which decided that society has nothing to offer. Mainstream society has not much to offer to them than goods they can not afford unless you go criminal, no jobs, no sense of purpose. So there is the culture inside the culture - for them it is alright to be violent and criminal, to do and sell drugs. For a lot of them this is all they know. Normally our worlds don't mix much. We can't save them - if we are lucky we can make an impact with our own children and others we know - but I fear that those kids are truly lost. Normally noone cares - only if things get out of control. :&>
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If only people had to pass exams in parenting before they were allowed to have kids, a sterilising pill before pubity that was only reversible after passing with honours.
And what would the curriculum be? And how would you pass? Who decides who gets the pill?
The Daily Mail?
The curriculum : the ability to Love ,care for and cherrish a child (government issue)
All kids to be given this pill untill the test child is a ''responsible'' teenager.
What makes you think I read the Mail?....not far enough right for me...
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''Youths are angry - everybody is angry - we are all losing faith in the system that keeps us safe from each other (anarchy)''
Isnt this perhaps WHY this is happening. No faith = no sense of being= no sense of responsibility.
What right have they got to be angry, the world does not owe them a living, the teenage boys that got slaughtered in the trenches in ww1 had a right to be angry. The teenage Jews that were gassed in ww2 had a right to be angry. Our boys getting their legs blown off in Afghanistan have a right to be angry.
and all your examples had a beleif in something to fight for, a sense of community, belonging, faith and Faith. They had/have lives and communities worth fighting for..... perhaps these kids in our seiged cities have no life worth fighting for, nothing for them to hold on to, no community to have faith in!!
These worthless pieces of crap have forfeited any rights they might have had , stop making excuses for them , they made the choice between right and wrong.
I am sorry, but NO-ONE is 'worthless peice of crap'. Do you know all of them them? their circumstances? backgrounds? their life-story? When you do, come back and say that again with a voice of real knowledge and authority!!!!! and by the way, where are they all to pick up this magical understanding of right and wrong! As someone else said our whole society is corrupt, theiving, fraudulant, gossipping, grabbing...these are the fine examples for these kids to learn from, NOT!!
Picture this; a TV programme a few weeks ago about children in poverty, in this country; a 11 yr old boy who gets bullied at school because he has to wear his older sister's hand-me-down blouse to school (off white with breast darts) and a pair of trousers that dont reach down to his socks. His special birthday treat was to get his hair cut. They had NO xmas, because the father was struggling to pay the heating bills. This father was trying his best, he couldnt work, the mum had died! Now, is that right or wrong. Its our society that has allowed this...and IF that father was to steal clothes from a shop for his sons..or food for them to eat. Or does he let his kids suffer.. How clear is the right and wrong, now! .......that little boy was an absolute star, he was articulate, he still had dreams, he wanted to be someone, to make the world a better place.
Our society's theft of his dreams is the Crime, and yeh, we will probably all pay for it!
Ps. forgot to say the people who have to pay for this mess to be cleared up have a right to be angry.
and the people who have to pay to keep the bastards in jail have a right to be angry. OH dear, thats all of us!
Oh lordy, i sound very liberal and huggy huggy. I just want to add that my Kids were brought up with a lot of tough love, and a huge dollop of grounding in understanding the, sometimes harsh, consequences of their actions. My son is an Environmental Advisor, and my daughter is well on her way to being a Psychologist. But most of all I am so very proud of their compassion, thoughfulness, dignity and respect for others. I beleive that these are the qualities, and life skills that the aforementioned marauders have never experienced!
Emma T
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What do we all need, after food and shelter?
To be loved? To have some sort of status? To have some control over our lives? To feel safe?
Now try to imagine you didn't matter to anyone, your parents were struggling too much themselves to take much notice of you, you're considered worthless and laughed at if you don't wear the right gear, there are bullies all round and the only way to stay safe is to keep in with them and do as they tell you.... Not an easy world to learn to do the right thing in. The ones who are poor but honest are the ones who have an intact family I suspect.
I'm not condoning the violence at all. However, I do think it's easy for those of us 40+ to say 'well we never had designer trainers and Blackberries'. No, I didn't either but neither did everyone around me and so I could take my place in my little bit of society still. And i knew that if I worked hard I could go to University (grants still in those days) and/or would get a decent job. And i had parents who, though poor, cared and taught me properly (including being walloped when required).
There need to be good jobs for everyone and strong sanctions and support for the Police, for wrongdoing.
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i have seen, with my own eyes, a 12 yr old boy cookin up a crack pipe for his uncle mother and father,(cos he was the best at it) ive seen a yardie in bristol rockin up a kilo of coke and his kids goin out and sellin it, its all they know and its all theyll ever know. the places where i saw this s**t were not nice. dirty blankets for beds, hookers in and out for £10 rocks, junkies with blood all over em, ulcerated and amputated legs. guns £50, ammo, a bit more expensive. no jobs no adequate housing no future nothing. this is not hard to find in this country, in every city, most towns and some villages, you can find them.
this is the legacy of previous governments. and the kids, their parents and probably the parents parents have nothing, so nothing to lose.
i heard hazel bleary on the radio earlier, saying, these kids need to realise they will get a criminal record and that will seriously affect there chances of employment. how out of touch can an mp be, these kids probably have records already, theres no jobs, there is no chance of employment. one 'rioter' was interviewed saying 'im gonna keep looting till i get caught', why, why the hell not.
you may have gathered,i had a somewhat misspent youth. :D
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how come it is the fault of previous goverments what job could they do that is going to pay more than they can make with drugs
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well it must be the fault of previous governments, cos this one hasnt been in long enough to have affected 3 generations.
what job could they do. none.
i have met very very few rich drug dealers, its a myth, the street dealers are paying for their own habits. the people making the money are a long long way up the chain. i think ive said this b4 but the british army is only in afghanistan for one reason, to insure the heroin crop.
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so what did the fourth generation do have you been on the drugs the British army are not there to secure the herion but the opposite if your statement were true the nhs would be getting there opiate's for free
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The reason why the blackberry became the device of choice for big corporates was that they could control the messaging servers (which did not need to be in the country where the devices were) and messaging was encrypted. Indeed the Financial Services Agency, despite being an incompetent bunch of nincompoops, eventually realised that taping dealer phone calls was not the whole solution when the dealers had mobile phones. Thus such people may now only have phones, such as the blackberry, where their employers can monitor their phone calls.
China, the Gulf states and some others then realised that phones were operating in their countries which could not be tapped. About a year ago several such countries announced that the BB would be banned unless RIM handed over encryption keys. RIM (the manufacturer) declined in public but the BB still works so who knows?
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robert, a packet of cocodamol, costs a quid, in the chemist, britain isnt the biggest market for heroin russia is. do sum research if u dont believe me
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/russia/110725/russia-afghanistan-heroin-addiction (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/russia/110725/russia-afghanistan-heroin-addiction)
have i been on the drugs. no not for some years now.
u can get a blackberry on a contract at £12/month, my daughter wanted one. not now!!!
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So, are we agreed, that life can be tough, that the governments can be out of touch with the common man and woman? If each of us on this forum were to take two kids and say ''Here, look.... look what you can do. Look at who you could be, how life can be! Look at what you can do for your world.'' Show them what we have, materially, socially, and personally... and and how we have acheived our dreams and goals, that would be over 9,000 kids who may be inspired to think differently!!
Emma T the Idealist
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absolutely agreed, i have done exactly that. most particularly for the kid i mentioned earlier.
now that just leaves 250000 to go.
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;D ;D Go DITW :wave: :wave:
ET x
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Well I'm trying to do it for the 170 in my care (Headteacher of a tiny rural secondary school) but truthfully they're not the immensely troubled ones, unlike the kids in my previous inner-city school, though mine need help like all kids. Very hard, wherever, to overcome family/peer influence.
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These people are NOT rioting. What is going on is targetted, planned theft. A throw of stones or petrol bombs at the police is an added bonus for the misunderstood??!!?? youths that are doing these things.
Today in Birmingham, two of the people arrested were university graduates and another works in a primary school!
The reason that the young lad mentioned earlier was a star was because he knew that his father had nothing and accepted that he would have to go without. These people who are commiting these crimes don't know what going without means.
The act of bringing back national service isn't to bully or shout at people, it is to give them self respect and the ability to achieve positive goals and to work for what you want instead of having it instantly as is the case now.
There are plenty of good young people out there and I sincerely belive that single parents can do a good job of raising kids. However it is easier with two parents assuming that both are pulling in the right direction.
Ian
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i agree profoundly with the idea of national service.
it would have done me good for sure. ;)
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I have read this thread right through in the last couple of days. Some very sensible things (in my view) have been said and some perhaps not so sensible.
I just couldn't resist joining in to say that I agree about national service. I am sure it would instill a sense of discipline, hing sadly lacking in a lot of people these days.
Sally
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Don't agree about National Service, though it was before my time, unless some pretty dramatic changes in the agenda were included. I don't think teaching kids to handle firearms will be helpful! And many national servicemen weren't given anything productive to do
However I think the lack of meaningful penalties for this type of crime is a problem. Bailing them and then giving soft punishments does not fit the crime. Victims have rights too
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I strongly believe that if people put themselves outside the law then they forfiet the right to the protection of the law.
I strongly believe that at times the law can be an ass
Just out of interest are you female and do you vote? would you have that privilege if someone had not broke the law, should Emmeline Pankhurst (née Goulden; 15 July 1858 – 14 June 1928) leader of the British suffragette movement, which helped women win the right to vote have been shot????
I dont agree with the riots in any way, but have worked in areas where the police are just not interested, yes I have had a sorn-off shotgun thrust in my face by local yobs, seen shoot outs on council estates all while going about my own business (working for age concern). these people have nothing to look forward to no jobs no money no hope, and its easy to say get a job but try finding one. My OH was made redundant he has qualifications coming out of his ears but he can't even get a job so what chance do kids straight out of school have.
When I left school I went straight into a job (Burtons tailoring) as did everyone else at the time we had manufacturing, mining and plenty of jobs. but we are all guilty of the British demise we want cheaper buying in goods/fuel from elsewhere what ever happened to "buy British" and we are doing thee same now with the retail sector we all want cheaper so buy online, but when there are no shops left who will we blame not us!!
If you spoke to 20 different people and asked them why they were rioting my guess is you would get 20 different answers, the problem with this country is we spend far to much time a money looking after other countries, foreign aid and minorities , I don't have a problem with helping any of these causes when our own house is in order but it's time we got our priorities right
And maybe we should start with the basics like if you have kids then stay at home and look after them! give them a bit of love,, national service would be far to late as most of the kids that were involved in these riots would not be old enough, what about bringing corporal punishment back in schools???
Sorry about the Rant but till you have walked a mile in another man's shoes i.e had to live like some of these people do every day its easy to sit on your high horse ans judge
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I strongly believe that at times the law can be an ass
Just out of interest are you female and do you vote? would you have that privilege if someone had not broke the law, should Emmeline Pankhurst (née Goulden; 15 July 1858 – 14 June 1928) leader of the British suffragette movement, which helped women win the right to vote have been shot????
.....
..that's when things stared going downhill, closely followed by giving 18 yr olds a vote.
I wrote my manifesto several years ago...give all women two votes so they can cancel themselves out since they can't make a decision. Allow only one family member to have a job...solves unemployment and keeps someone at home to discipline the kids. Demand Calais back from the French and re-instate the British Empire. Ban those stupid Golden delicious apples. Take our Gold back from Germany. Ban takeaways, supermarkets and cars used for the 'school run'. Have a minimum 40mph limit in towns to teach people to look where they're going....get rid of traffic lights and roundabouts- reduces the number of cars on the roads. ::) ;D ;D
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If you really want to know Hatty:
I'm a 65 year old male , born 1946 with an IQ of 167, the youngest of 3 sons. My parents were means tested so that they could send my oldest brother to agricultural college. He was the one who got the new clothes and the new shoes, they were then passed down to the next son and finally to me. So don't talk down to me about deprived childhoods,We had food on the table and coal on the fire, I was doing a paper round from the age of 7 and hand milking 23 cows on the farm next door, this brought in a total of £ 1: 7/6d a week which I had to hand over to my mum to help put food on the table. I had to leave school at 15 and get a job to bring money in . So as far as poverty is concerned, I have walked more than a mile in their shoes. the difference is , I was wrapped in the warmth of a loving family that taught me that if I wanted something , then I had to earn it , not just go out and steal it.
Respect has to be earned, not demanded.
Being brought up in the forties and fifties was no walk in the park. I can remember my mother paying the doctor with a chicken before the NHS got going.
So don't tell me that these kids in their Nikes and designer jeans with blackberries in their pockets and carrying £50 guns are deprived ,
The only thing they have missed out on is propper parenting , no wonder the hight of confusion is Fathers Day in Brixton.
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..to be serious for a moment:
The reality of our current situation is simply one of having too much and expecting even more as a right rather than as a reward. It's to do with the pace of development fueled by selling rubbish to pay for developing even more rubbish. Little of it improves the quality of life in the sense of joy and satisfaction - instead it leads to greed.
The only things that really matter are health and enough food to avoid hunger and enough shelter to avoid the cold. The rest is just 'stuff' - baggage that you don't need and just leads to envy. Why do we hanker for a pastoral existence? It's hard work, it's regressive, it doesn't allow for possessing more than essentials. Indeed it's a reaction and a desire to leave that world of excess and get back to that simpler philosophy.
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''The only thing they have missed out on is proper parenting''
the 'only' thing??? surely thats the main thing?
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On a less serious note, did anybody else catch this quote from the BBC news website?
Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said.
:D
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is that real? I hope so, it's hilarious. I never knew gadhaffi had a sense of humour. ;D
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Emmeline Pankhurst (née Goulden; 15 July 1858 – 14 June 1928) leader of the British suffragette movement
I share a birthday with Emmeline - only the date, not the year ;D
Sorry, off topic ;)
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I say again, these people were NOT rioting. Just thieving.
Poorness was not an issue. Bad parenting WAS.
Ian
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If you really want to know Hatty:
I'm a 65 year old male , born 1946 with an IQ of 167, the youngest of 3 sons. My parents were means tested so that they could send my oldest brother to agricultural college. He was the one who got the new clothes and the new shoes, they were then passed down to the next son and finally to me. So don't talk down to me about deprived childhoods,We had food on the table and coal on the fire, I was doing a paper round from the age of 7 and hand milking 23 cows on the farm next door, this brought in a total of £ 1: 7/6d a week which I had to hand over to my mum to help put food on the table. I had to leave school at 15 and get a job to bring money in . So as far as poverty is concerned, I have walked more than a mile in their shoes. the difference is , I was wrapped in the warmth of a loving family that taught me that if I wanted something , then I had to earn it , not just go out and steal it.
Respect has to be earned, not demanded.
Being brought up in the forties and fifties was no walk in the park. I can remember my mother paying the doctor with a chicken before the NHS got going.
So don't tell me that these kids in their Nikes and designer jeans with blackberries in their pockets and carrying £50 guns are deprived ,
The only thing they have missed out on is propper parenting , no wonder the hight of confusion is Fathers Day in Brixton.
all that experience and still small minded ;D ;D I hardly mentioned childhood it was the law, but lucky you you had a family that cared even though money was tight more than most of these kids have!!
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A riot is a whisker away from a boisterous crowd.
My boy, out policing in one of the less affected areas, said that there were loads of dodgy kids in town waiting for something to kick-off. It didnt.
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same here. 3 boys tried to kick off a facebook campaign in Dundee and were caught straight off. :&>
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Good!
I noticed in our local paper that the Police had said quite clearly that the local 'yoof' needn't think about joining in!
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I saw a link from FB to a photo of a looter, baseball cap, hood up, leaving a shop with a HUGE box. He must have been so happy. Except the name on the side was Tena.
For those who aren't of that age, Tena make incontinence products. I hope he p*ssed himself laughing when he opened the box.
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I smiled at the photo of poundland in Leicester and the shop window was full of large plastice boxes, I can just imajine people stuggling to carry them and they are less than £5 to buy!!!!!!
Still would put a bet that some big crook was stirred up and like a stone in a pool the minuals working for them passed on the message to riot and were qucikly joined by some fun and excitment needing young people and those who were just after some free stuff, the crooks would have backed away at the start and let the rest take over. I have always been amazed how quick nice, cared for children can turn to wild creatures with no head for anything or anyone, so those with poor backgrounds and bad upbringing will change at the drop of a hat when they can actualy achieve something and maybe bring home something that thier parents and peers will be pleased with.
PS. for all those who have never worked with young teenagers, try leaving a group alone for a while, maybe add some cheap booze and a bit of excitment and see what you get!!!!!
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A boy has been arrested for breaking into a music shop and stealing a medieval stringed instrument, turns out he was just another Luter..
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A boy has been arrested for breaking into a music shop and stealing a medieval stringed instrument, turns out he was just another Luter..
Brilliant ;D
Ian
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http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Chav (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Chav)
OK people the above link will take you to a site designed to educate you to a point where you will gain a deeper understanding of the root cause of the social unrest. Enjoy.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot)
as will this. ;)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot)
as will this. ;)
;D ;D ;D
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So what does everyone think about todays "front page" as I glanced at it?
Guys jailed for 4 years for inciting riots on facebook?! I mean I am in no way 'with' them - but being jailed for creating a facebook group!?
Surely the only reason the groups were brought to the attention of the police was the fact that 'social' networking is exactly that - it polices itself due to the 'majority factor' when putting such opinions online?
My major frightener from all of this is that the cases going through now could be used in the future for any kind of arrest around protest groups.
Although I am dead against anything that hinders another person - jailing someone for their opinion? even if their opinion does incite moral injustice (totally subjective even in the correct political channels!)
Baz
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I see where you're coming from and I would hate to think I would ever be arrested for voicing my opinion :-\ but, if these guys were actually organising riots, times, places, what they were going to do etc (whether on-line, on the phone or in person) then I think they should be locked up.
If it was a page for people to express an opinion then no, of course they shouldn't be jailed for that. But you know what the papers are like, they only print what suits them ::)
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bazzais where are you comming from your previous posts (crying for the breakup of your country) now when the courts are dealing out sentences you are moaning has your head been up your arse all through these riots the protest that was for the death of a drug dealer transgressed into a free for all not by impoverished youths who cant get a job but the crucks of the future society social workers sports people etc with the demise of anybody in the drug chain that demise creates a vacuum the opportunity for others to get on the gravy train van loads of stolen gear the forkers could not get enough of it killing each other in the free for all that ensued and you are supporting them >:(
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I have not done enough research as to exactly why they were arrested - just commenting on the headlines I saw.
As I say, I dont condone it - perhaps I have got the wrong end of the stick and these guys were actually heads of a gang under their command -perhaps they were so clever at inciting violence that they actually forgot that facebook was a socail network and the rest of the world can actually see it ;) - who knows.
Is 'making examples' enough?
The news last week had some bird escaping with what looked like a packet of crisps and another with some socks and a bottle of soda? Who smashed the window? Who started the ruck? Who made the real money?
Protest and talk is one thing - being havok is another.
Lets face it - we even have legit parties in this country that stand for worse than creating a facebook page!?
Baz