The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: harry on July 31, 2011, 09:26:11 pm
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anyone tried verm x ??????
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I've not tried it, but as far as I know it's a herbal remedy to control worms (it doesn't neccesarily eradicate them :-\)
Play it safe, get a worm count done and if need be, jab them with noro/ivo-mectin (It's only about £14 a bottle) that way, you know they're worm free and you'll not likely need to repeat it before slaughter ;)
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Agree!
They were taken to advertising standards for using the word 'control' worms/parasites, and are no longer able to use that wording
http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2009/4/Paddocks-Farm-Partnership-Ltd/TF_ADJ_46136.aspx (http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2009/4/Paddocks-Farm-Partnership-Ltd/TF_ADJ_46136.aspx)
Money much better spent on worm counts - if they are clear, you dont need the wormer, if they're not, you need an effective wormer that will deal with the problem!
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Hi,I have and do use it regularly on our hens though to confirm how well it works,I have just ordered a worm count kit for our hens,shall let you all know the results very soon,it shall be interesting.I have to say though,I have yet to see a worm in their poop!
I have not tried using it for anything else as of yet,I am buying a worm count kit for my pigs from SFS and dependant of the results on the hens,I shall make my mind up then.
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Agree!
They were taken to advertising standards for using the word 'control' worms/parasites, and are no longer able to use that wording
http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2009/4/Paddocks-Farm-Partnership-Ltd/TF_ADJ_46136.aspx (http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2009/4/Paddocks-Farm-Partnership-Ltd/TF_ADJ_46136.aspx)
Money much better spent on worm counts - if they are clear, you dont need the wormer, if they're not, you need an effective wormer that will deal with the problem!
I just read this article and they are still using "natural control of internal parasites"..
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forgive me ime a pig newby ... but whats the point of haveing a worm count, about £10 per pig when i can buy a bottle of wormer for £14 and worm them..... cos when i do the worm count they might be clear but get them next week??????????????????????
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forgive me ime a pig newby ... but whats the point of haveing a worm count, about £10 per pig when i can buy a bottle of wormer for £14 and worm them..... cos when i do the worm count they might be clear but get them next week??????????????????????
Your pigs should or may already have been wormed by the breeder,I'm told they may not need doing again prior to slaughter but I am probably overly cautious where my animals are concerned,I would prefer to know they are all in tip top health.As far as I am aware it does not cost £10.00 per pig,just £10.00 for the kit and place a few samples in?-Well that's what I was advised.The point is that they may not need worming,but if they do,you need to source the correct dosage and product to deal with infestations.
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Mainly because there are only a couple of core classes of wormer active ingredients, and when you blanket treat (and sometimes people under dose by mistake), the worms eventually become resistant to the core chemical. This is becoming a major problem in practice not only a theory, and since there is no obvious totally new classes of wormers, if we all carried on as in the past just worming as routine, then in the not too distant future we will have no effective wormers left to use on the animals.
Horse owners for decades routinely wormed (and if you didnt you would be considered very irresponsible), but as resistance problems have grown, so attitudes have changed and 'intelligent worming (worm counts plus targeted worming when and if needed) is now becoming the norm.
The other reason is these are pretty nasty chemicals to be having spread over your land and very harmful to the beneficial bugs eg dung beetles that magically make dung disappear and stop fields becoming one big dung heap. They can also find their way into the water supply.
The need to worm as routine may be increased if there is a high stocking rate but for animals farmed extensively and kept for any length of time, worm counting plus targeted worming is far preferable to blanket chemical use.
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Mainly because there are only a couple of core classes of wormer active ingredients, and when you blanket treat (and sometimes people under dose by mistake), the worms eventually become resistant to the core chemical. This is becoming a major problem in practice not only a theory, and since there is no obvious totally new classes of wormers, if we all carried on as in the past just worming as routine, then in the not too distant future we will have no effective wormers left to use on the animals.
Horse owners for decades routinely wormed (and if you didnt you would be considered very irresponsible), but as resistance problems have grown, so attitudes have changed and 'intelligent worming (worm counts plus targeted worming when and if needed) is now becoming the norm.
The other reason is these are pretty nasty chemicals to be having spread over your land and very harmful to the beneficial bugs eg dung beetles that magically make dung disappear and stop fields becoming one big dung heap. They can also find their way into the water supply.
The need to worm as routine may be increased if there is a high stocking rate but for animals farmed extensively and kept for any length of time, worm counting plus targeted worming is far preferable to blanket chemical use.
Put much better than I could have done ;-)
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I agree with all of the above, plus when you buy your weaners you cannot be 100% certain that the breeder / supplier has wormed them correctly (if at all??).
There are several farms now where it is impractical to keep sheep - because of worms that are immune to wormers, being on the land - this is a result of continued and incorrect use of chemical wormers.
Thanks
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I have used verm x for my chucks, not used it for my Kunes though. I usually use Ivomectin (jabs) or Flubenol (jam sandwich) - no guess which they prefer ;) ;D
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Quote from SfS
"plus when you buy your weaners you cannot be 100% certain that the breeder / supplier has wormed them correctly (if at all??)."
If you buy from a reputable breeder they should tell you when, and with what, they wormed the weaners. We worm all ours with Ivomectin at 8-9 weeks. Perhaps I shouldn't bother! If you assume the breeder HASN'T wormed the weaners, and worm them yourself, but they have actually been wormed, isn't that likely to cause problems with resistance?
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this thread has potential the good breeder v the could not give a stuff breeder the cheep weaner as opposed to a pedigree weaner is it not better to buy a quality weaner that all you have to do is provide good food plenty of water a warm dry shelter and enjoy the experience rather than panic and waste money upset your pigs spend more on feeding and keep them longer
it is a simple choice :farmer:
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Agree Robert. You pays your money you takes your choice!
A cheap weaner can end up costing you more, sometimes they're weaned too early, not properly and not wormedand end up costing you more in the long run. As previously stated a reputable breeder will do all these things the right way, we wean from mum and keep them separate on their own for a week during which time we check that they're feeding and drinking by themselves, they're wormed and all is well for them to be sold onwards. I would be appalled if anyone had problems with stock i had sold them but soem are not so scupulous.
Buyer beware and ask the right questions.
Mandy :pig:
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in a post WHATS THE BEST WORMER a link is shown to a worm count kit.... £9.99 isnt that for 1 kit for 1 pig?
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It's one kit for 1 sample Harry ;)
Because all your pigs have come from the same breeder and same litter they'll all be in a similar state worm wise, so you can either test just one or do a combined sample in the pot with dung from each animal.
HTH
Karen
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it can be for one pig or a multiple of pigs one pig you fill it with the crap from only that pig multiple pigs you fill it with a bit from every pig
the worm resistance bit is slightly different for pigs weaner's or fatteners are not going to be kept that long well should not
sows and boars should be rotated around paddocks and they crap in the same part all the time a well feed pig should not root where it craps but they are pigs and can not read so anything is possible
you are rely stuck betwean a rock and a hard place with this one buy the kit and find out you don't need to worm OR still do do not test and dose or i
nject for worms when it is not necessary or you are dosing/injecting across the worm possibility's and therefore killing the dung Beatles :farmer:
if the mother had worms these can be passed on to the piglets via her milk and i think also passed on when still in the womb if the mother is injected more than 9/10 days before birth of the piglets the immunity will be passed on to them :farmer:
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in a post WHATS THE BEST WORMER a link is shown to a worm count kit.... £9.99 isnt that for 1 kit for 1 pig?
If you want a 100% accurate EPG count for an animal then that is correct.
However it is possible to mix samples in one pot and therefore gain an average EPG count.
Thanks
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Quote from SfS
"plus when you buy your weaners you cannot be 100% certain that the breeder / supplier has wormed them correctly (if at all??)."
If you buy from a reputable breeder they should tell you when, and with what, they wormed the weaners. We worm all ours with Ivomectin at 8-9 weeks. Perhaps I shouldn't bother! If you assume the breeder HASN'T wormed the weaners, and worm them yourself, but they have actually been wormed, isn't that likely to cause problems with resistance?
Its Under-dosing that increases resistance + keeping on the same land after worming, as the animal re-ingests worms or eggs not killed by the wormer.
So regardless of how reputable the breeder is then (in my view) a "blanket" worming programme is not the correct choice unless backed up by regular worm counts to determine the effectiveness of the programme.
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We do regular worm counts (negligible) and rotate our pigs through the paddocks. The main reason we worm all our weaners is because that's what most buyers want! I do agree that worm counts are the way to go: we don't do each pig but each pen, because if one pig in a group has worms they all will.
I agree with Robert and Mandy: we bought in a batch of weaners last year to meet unexpected increased demand for meat. Not only had they not been wormed effectively but one of the buggers turned out to have chronic erysipelas! They grew very slowly compared to ours and were definitely a false economy. With hindsight I should have visited the farm before I agreed to buy them!
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someone i know used horse worm powder in feed..... apparently its very strong and you cant overdose ?????????????????? not even at 1000 times dose ?????? piglets are 7 weeks old and on previously pig free ground and will be killed at 11 months aprox
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Just to put an oar in, wouldn't it be better to eat a piggy that had been wormed with a natural herbal wormer than one that had been wormed with ivermectin based wormer ? I know they give withdrawal time, but who knows what minute amount of residue is actually harmful ?
I read recently that with a new method of analysis, they'd found 14 chemicals in milk (from the pasteurised milk we drink) that had gathered from various sources unbeknown to the producer. I wonder how some of these chemicals react to each other.
I'd stick to natural wormers whenever possible - by cross-grazing, changing pastures, use of herbs etc., which doesn't clear out worms entirely, (that only makes way for a huge influx of fresh worms) but greatly reduces them.
Just my thoughts ;D
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if the mother had worms these can be passed on to the piglets via her milk and i think also passed on when still in the womb if the mother is injected more than 9/10 days before birth of the piglets the immunity will be passed on to them
There is no immunity to worms.
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immunity is the wrong word if there are worm eggs or whatever the worms develop from when the mother is injected this is passed onto the piglets :farmer:
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any natural wormer would be great and easy, but does it work??????????... can i initally look for them myself can they be seen or do i need a magnifying glass, and what colour are they.
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Harry ::) :D you'll need a microscope and some fluid with which to 'wash' the sample (it's got to be special stuff to suspend the eggs, water won't do) and then you've got to correctly identify which parasites are present and in what numbers.
Trust me - pay your tenner and buy the test ;) These guys are experts at identifiying what types and numbers are present, then you can decide on the right course of action.
Obviously, you don't need to worm them at all - they're your pigs and it's up to you what level of care you want to give them :-\ though the £15 it'll cost will be saved in the price of extra food they consume in order to get to killing weight.
Karen
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You may see some - but chances are you wont.
We have seen results from people who swear their animals wont have worms or are on virgin land - only to find a very high EPG (Eggs per gramme) reading.
It is the eggs that the pig normally passes rather than wriggling worms.
A worm count for pigs will identify eggs for the following worms (if present)
Trichuris suis
Stronyloides
Metastrongylus elongatus
physocephalus sexalatus
Macracanthorhynchus hirudinaceus
Ascaris suum
Globocephalus urosubulatus
Hyostrongylus rubidus
Hyostrongylus rubidus
Oesophagostomum dentatum
Oesophagostomum dentatum
Stephanurus dentatus
Trichinella spiralis
Will also check for Liver Fluke if you specify that you would like this checking.
Thanks
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;D ;D ;D
See, I can't even say half of those, let alone identify them !
Thank god for the experts, eh Gareth ? ;)
Karen :wave:
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Thats who we rely on - experts in the field - we just spread the word.........
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Just to put an oar in, wouldn't it be better to eat a piggy that had been wormed with a natural herbal wormer than one that had been wormed with ivermectin based wormer ? I know they give withdrawal time, but who knows what minute amount of residue is actually harmful ?
I read recently that with a new method of analysis, they'd found 14 chemicals in milk (from the pasteurised milk we drink) that had gathered from various sources unbeknown to the producer. I wonder how some of these chemicals react to each other.
I'd stick to natural wormers whenever possible - by cross-grazing, changing pastures, use of herbs etc., which doesn't clear out worms entirely, (that only makes way for a huge influx of fresh worms) but greatly reduces them.
Just my thoughts ;D
Only if the natural wormers worked to clear already present worms; and the producers could not prove that they did. The other things (cross grazing, low stocking rates, rotation to fresh pasture, access to plants other than plain ryegrass are all things which should ideally be done anyway, to minimise the chance of worms. But none of them will resolve worms once there.
Worm counts then tell whether there is a negligible, low or high burden. Clearing out (which as you say would be counter productive) should not happen as the advice with worm tests is that negligible or low count - dont worm, medium count - worm if you think necessary, high count - you should worm.
If there is a proven heavy worm burden then all the cross grazing and herbs and Verm-x in the world will not address it; only a wormer will do that. If not using a worm when there is a heavy burden the rest of the flock are likely to become worm-ridden too and fail to thrive.
Personally using the sort of techniques we are all agreeing on for prevention, I have not had to worm my sheep to date in 3 years, I would not want to eat meat that has been recently treated with any wormer or chemical and some withdrawal periods seem too short to me! But with appropriate timing of months rather than days or weeks prior to slaughter I suspect we are running greater risks from factors in the environment we havent even got a handle on yet - eg nanoparticles, nictotinoids on bees etc, and there is also an animal welfare aspect of the duty to ensure that we take appropriate action to avoid animals suffering. So if I needed to worm, I would have no hesitation, in the interests of the animals.
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whats the best age to do counts mine are now 8 weeks old and due for slaughter at about 11 months