The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: princesspiggy on July 28, 2011, 08:37:34 am
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can anyone recommend someone in aberdeenshire/grampian to construct an outdoor menage?
it has to be decent enough to hire out all year round but not cost the entire earth?
thanx
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Why not use several contractors for each key stage and manage it yourself rather than pay a fortune to a 'professional'? I used a groundworks company (they typically dig foundations, drains and perform heavy landscaping) to dig out the topsoil and excavate a herringbone drainpattern. They can also advise on positioning of the Manege and drainage issues. This is the most important stage as you intend to use it year round. I also had them spread the topsoil and level it on my land which saved removal costs.
The next stage is putting the drains in and any competent builder can do this (I did my own and I am an office worker!). Its not rocket science and all the information I needed was found on the internet. I even ordered the materials on ebay in most cases. The fence can be erected by a lanscaper / fencer and the hardcore and sand surface can be spread by the same grounworks company with their machines. The membrane can be laid by anyone.
My Manege came in at approx £18k with me project managing, ordering materials and doing some of the work (drains and membranes) in my spare time, the odd day off and one week off when the hardcore and sand rubber surface was delivered and laid. Its built to the recommended standards and is usable through the winter.
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does it matter if the digger isnt on caterpillar treads? i know exactly how i want it - to the point if obsession! but many contractors up here have such differing prices and views on what to do.
im all for putting a membrane down (and sewing it in place) but some contractors say there is no need, then some surface companies say they are no longer required.
im hoping to use sand then top up with shredded tyres in a few years time. though as kids, we used a woodchip surface and that was fine. the field is very open in winter so i expect to lose some sand in the gales!
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I would look at it this way. If the people saying you dont need a membrane are wrong, will they pay for the whole lot to be dug up, membrane put in and replaced?
hmm thought not.It costs (relatively!!!) little to put it in at the start but almost impossible to do so later.
I cant quite work out how they would think a surface with no membrane would stop the surface migrating down and the weeds migrating up?
You might need something to stop all that expensive (silica one hopes) sand floating away on the wind, even at the outset. If that's not doable would you be better going for woodchip temporarily and in a couple of years getting the de luxe surface with the rubber to weigh it down....?
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quite surprising this one the first hurdle is your rates issue once the council find out especially when you are hiring it out
there are a lot of contractors out there and as you say such a variance in costs the cheap ones have they got insurance have they done this before are they prepared to take you to previous happy customers
i would shy away from getting every man and his dog in to do the work a bit at a time
also the cost they are not cheap
if you goggle greenwells arenas (Brian harper) and contact them they might travel to your area there is only one way to do an arena and that is the correct way
i fail to see the point of digging down to build it back up again
type of machine that is down to the one supplying it a 3c and mini diggers are just farting about costing you money but making money for them Brian uses a 13 ton excavator far quicker and better at the end of the day it is your money spend it wisely :horse: :farmer:
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I cant quite work out how they would think a surface with no membrane would stop the surface migrating down and the weeds migrating up?
i was reading a horsey article about school construction saying something in the lines of modern surfaces dont require the old fashioned membranes so im presuming they must have meant rubber mixes? i know some people use a membrane at bottom, then another on top of the highest layer of stones. i had one contractor that quoted a very cheap price but said horses would do the splits if i used any liner. hhmm >:( ???
i am definitely going to see past customers schools cos its a big investment, and expensive to correct if its done badly.
the first hurdle is your rates issue once the council find out especially when you are hiring it out
i have full planning permission already and i dont think hiring it will drawing such an income that itl attract high rates (indoor schools are different as they are seen as buildings)
i have the use of a digger at reasonably price (with a driver luckily! LOL) but thought maybe ud need caterpillar treads to ensure a smooth finish of the foundations?
i will try greenwells, thanku ;)
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I used only three contractors. First the groundowrks experts to help me with site and drainage. Next a fencer to put up the fence gate and barge boards and lastly a company that supplied a large (165ton I think) digger on caterpiller treads and a six ton dumper to help me move and level the base a finsh surfaces. Assuming you have the time to manage this its a doddle and is not rocket science.
I agree there is only one way to do this and there are NO shortcuts. Drains are the most importnat part of the whole thing and you need someone to advise on soil etc to see how the drains should work, how deep, etc. This is why it makes sense to have a groundworks company performing the initial excavation for you.
Membranes are mandatory in my opinion - its common sense really and the cost of the membrane is very very small in the grand scheme of things. I used silica sand topped with recycled rubber. The sand was the most expensive single aspect and came in at £7000 (thats why spending a few hundred on membrane is a no brainer!). The rubber was £1500 which again is a (relatively) small price to pay for helping to stabilise that very precious Silica sand.
I'm happy to provide a detailed breakdown of materials and costs to anyone interested (please PM me).
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id be interested in a price breakdown, thanx
is silicia sand finer or just less abrasive?
we were brought up with woodchip schools so i wouldnt mind that but sand appears the most popular around here.
maybe im more eccentric ( ??? :o ::)) as im all for herringbone drainage but my potential contractors seem more laid back and think 3 or 4 pipes
running across the short side will be ample. i would hate to have a school that was too boggy. how many tonnes of sand would a 20x40 require?
i waiting for some site visits and quotes ( :o :o) but very excited ;D ;D ;D
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We are midway through constructing our Manage so this is something I've been researching.
Riding Surfaces: Woodchip and Rubber Chip are considered fire hazards and already banned in much of the EU, UK will prob follow suit so be careful, taking that lot up and replacing it would be no fun. Silica Sand from the South West of the UK (a by product of china clay mining in Devon/Cornwall) is another no no - dust in the summer, sticky in the winter (too much kaolin left in).
Membranes - some constructors say not necessary, others put down one (the most popular option), even two.
I've got a few websites bookmarked which have good info, below are two pages from one of them:
http://www.heritage-house.org/buildmanege.html (http://www.heritage-house.org/buildmanege.html)
http://www.heritage-house.org/manege.html (http://www.heritage-house.org/manege.html)
Let us know how you get on, would love to see your progress!
:horse:
PS: I've also read membranes need replacing every 4 / 5 years !!
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i do hope anyone contemplating an arena takes the time to read oh la la posting the only thing he has forgot is happy snaps and get a written statement on what works and matterials are going to be used (it is easier to produce photos than have somebody waffling on about what they did or did not do when in court getting your money back)
when arenas first started there was big money to be made and have seen the pitfalls described drainage/building rubble/no membrane woodchip surfaces etc now every man and his dog are constructing them
i never did an arena simply because as described there is to much money involved to do it correctly and that is one thing the horse fraternity hold onto trying to tell them the cheap option would not work they would have none of it always saying they knew somebody that just had one constructed for half the cost
the guy from heritage house has detailed it out CUT CORNERS AT YOUR PERIL you will also need flood lights to get the best out of your arena
yes a well constructed arena adds value but a poor one devalues your property and can injure your horse or worse somebody Else's horse :farmer:
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thanku guys, shopping for arenas is much more fun than shoppin for shoes...unless theyre horseshoes...lol
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Silica sand granules are shaped to tessellate so that the surface compacts. My Manege was finished
last October and we have has no dust issues so far this summer - its in an open area on the tope of a hill that is exposed to the south westerly winds as well.
Also please dont listen to comments about not needing extensive drains - you must use a herringbone pattern or similar - this is the most importnat part of the build and is what I spent most time working on. In fact it breaks my heart that no-one ever sees the work of enginieering brilliance that is now busried under tons and tons fo stone and sand! Just think how much water falls on a surface area of 800m2 over several days of prolonged rain! You need to get thast water away from the Menage as quickly as possible. You must use a membrane as well to keep the surfaces sperate and stop the sane from being washed down through the stone layer and into the drains. I'll echo Robert Waddell: Do Not Cut Corners!!!!
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Herringbone drainage and membrane are both being installed in our Manage, luckily the site is adjacent to a ditch so the runaway pipe feeds directly into that.
If anyone is interested, I'll maybe in due course, put up a post with progress photos and info on how we did it ??
In the meantime guys, would love to see your progress/finished item photos.
:horse:
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You're lucky then! I made the mistake of having a 3 x 4 x 5 metre soakaway against the recommendation of the groundworks poeple. I have clay soil and so the water just didnt drain away when it rained shortly after it was dug. I ended up having it filled in and digging a 100 metre trench and laying lad drain to my dearest ditch ::)
Great idea on progress updates etc. I took lots of photos of my progress because I wanted to show that it was built to the correct standards just in case we ever had to seel up. I'll post some key photo's and also a breakdown of the materials and cost - hope its of help to someone.
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Brian Harper (greenwells) did our arena.....
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Ok, here are some pictures of our build to show the progress. Note the drains and also the size of the machines used - this echos what has already been said - dont waste time with mini diggers, larger machines are more cost effective.
The diggers move in:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture017.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture025.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture050.jpg)
The herringbone channels are lined with terram membrane. 3 or 4 inches of recycled pea shingle (cheaper than posh driveway stuff) with a 100mm perforated land drain laid on. Then the entire trenc is filled with the shingle. All in all the trenches took 68 tonnes of pea shingle to fill to the base level of the Manege (all moved by hand with wheel barrows to protect the structure :o).
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture019.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture018.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture020.jpg)
Then the fence was erected with barge boards:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture020-1.jpg)
The entire surface area is then lined with more terram membrane. I'm using hanfl round fence posts to hold each strip down as it was windy. I didnt seal the membrane but overlapped it by at least one metre. 250 tonnes of cleaned and graded hardcore (no fines) was the shipped in and leveled:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture003.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture004.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture005.jpg)
Next, more membrane, much finer this time is put down over the leveled hardcore layer and the sand is shipped in:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture018-1.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture020-2.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/Picture026.jpg)
Finally, 40 tonnes of rubber chips (recycled tyres)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/IMG00021-20100909-0740.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/IMG00022-20100909-1014.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/IMG00024-20100909-1243.jpg)
Then drains run down to the ditch 125 metres away:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/IMG00032-20100909-1537.jpg)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff262/Lesworth/Sudbury%20Cottage/IMG00035-20100909-1858.jpg)
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And here is a breakdown of the materials used:
232 tonnes of clean hardcore with no fines for the drainage layer. This is a bit more than I expected because I had to use some to adjust the levels. Suplliers will know how many tonnes are need based on cubic metres which you can work out with length x width x depth.
140 tonnes of beautiful silica sand.
20 tonnes of rubber chip
I negotiated all the prices and got discounts on everything. I also asked for cash deadles to save VAT and managed to get a great cash deadl on all the hardcore and the supply of the driver and machines for laying the surface :-). All the land drain pipe and joints came from ebay and the membrane came from Flexible Lining Products Limited.
Hope that helps!
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Very interesting, particularly the drainage groundworks.
Thanks for taking the time to put the pics up.
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please do not take this the the wrong way first the small amount of topsoil removed subsoil can and does grow weeds/plants etc
second the drainage top marks for using the proper jointing pieces the big problem with using wavincoil is the up and down effect of the drain (this can cause pockets of silt to gather and reduce the flow of water and eventually chock) more expensive but better job would have been the orange lengths of pipe also made by wavinflow and also perforated and you can jet it if it silts up :farmer:
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Thanks for that Robert, the more info I glean the better, I'll see if I can find the website for Wavinflow and get more info.
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* Can't find Waveinflow website but can find sellers of their flexable pipe - can you point me in right direction for the 'orange lengths' ?
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just goggle wavin that is the main co it does come up with wavincoil the drainage system is either osma or hepworth both should have perforated 3m lengths of pipe try and get agri discount on pipes(can be up to 65%) the pea gravel is a bed that you level by shovel the pipe laid and level checked with a spirit level turn of the bead is all that is required to get a good flow (two lines on the bead the bubble exactly in the middle is dead level the bubble just touching the line or just past the line is enough to get a good run) then keep the pipe firm and backfill with 40mm gravel
the only thing about drainage it is buried you only have a problem when it does not work to late then to rectify
have fun :farmer:
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this info is just great, still waiting for my first site visit....thanku guys!
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Thanks Robert, wish I;d known about the Wavin before I started :)
Actually all the top soil was removed right down to the undisturbed clay. Clay is the work of the devil by the way >:(
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as an extra you could add a silt trap just outside the arena this can be any size you want and lets you see just how much water is carried away from the arena also gives you access to jet the pipes if you have iron ocher in the ground also don't drain the arena first then not have enough of a run to get the water to a ditch/burn or stream also if you flood no point in laying drains below the flood water level :farmer:
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Ok !! I am going to go against the grain here! this is what i did and how much it cost.
You need to know your ground well for starters.
i am lucky to have very good draining soil and my land stands higher than anyone elses in the village. We do have pretty flat ground here.
I had a very little bit of levelling done, to even the gound out, scrape off the grass, and to create a banking around the arena. I then put woodchip down to a depth of 10 inches. NO membrane. No drainage pipes etc.
It cost £2500 - all in, including the planning permission!! that was four years ago. Its still as good as when i had it laid...in fact better cos it has bedded in. The only thing i have done is rake it to keep the level, spray it occasionally to get rid of weeds that do grow through. Oh, and this year i put some fencing with kickboards at the easterly end, nearest the grazing fields, cos the high winds in May blew a lot of the surface off the arena onto the other fields. (that would have happened with any surface though)
As far as i am concerned. This has been amazing value for money, i may have to get it topped up in a few years time. i wont have to worry about the huge cost of removing it if i was to give up riding (as you would with other surfaces) the planners were happy about this enviromental spect too. If i was to leave it it would eventually rot down and return to grazing over a few years. In fact that slight rotting keeps the surface warmer in winter so it is still ridable when everyone elses surfaces are frozen solid. Win, win, as far as i am concerned.
Just another opinion, mind! Oh the woodchip is specially graded for riding arenas, gives a lovely spring for the horses, and doesnt need a sttling in period.
Emma T :wave:
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gonna add to my post. My arena is for personal use!! i dont hire it out, therefore it wont attract the level of wear and tear, and liability of an arena for public use. what you are talking about is another ballgame.
however i can demonstrate that it doesnt have to cost a fortune.
BTW there are loads of arenas in the Aberdeen/shire area, are you sure that the market will have room for yours? Just a gentle question.
Emma T :wave:
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BTW there are loads of arenas in the Aberdeen/shire area, are you sure that the market will have room for yours?
its not really essential but just nice to have the option. its only 20x40 so not competing with the big guys anyway. im thinking more of renting it to local grass liveries as opposed to high flyers. it all adds up :D ;D
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pikilily, would you put some photos of it here please?
:horse:
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yeh will get some today...though it is pouring with rain.....BOOOOOO !!! In the meantime, its flat, brown, with fencing around it....LOL ;D ;D ;D Note to self; get the strimmer out for the grass around the sides. :wave:
Emma T :wave:
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Hi Princess Piggy,
I know this is an old post and will start a new one but intrigued to know if you managed to find someone in the Grampian area to construct your outdoor school at a reasonable price?
I'm getting quotes just now and although I want a decent school it is only for myself so I can hopefully keep the horses in work throughout winter so i feel the £18k price tag is a bit excessive. If you could PM me with info that would be greatly appreciated.
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i will pm you, we didnt get one in the end. and have decided to move to a new farm now. quotes seemed to have gone up by 40% in the 2 yrs since we got our first quote. some people were quoting £23k. just silly.
what area are you in?
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Hi there, I know I am probably a bit late but I know of a company in Aberdeenshire that are able to construct an arena. They are a small excavation company (2 brothers). I believe they have constructed an area before and are perfectionists - have all the proper toys, caterpillar tracks etc and hire out too. I also know of a lady how has a beautiful arena - built in the last 3 years. If you are still looking or anyone else is looking for an arena to be constructed I can give details of the above - just pm me.
Eeyore
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Hi Princess Piggy,
Thank you for responding, I am in the New Deer area and I have had a relatively reasonable quote but the 20% VAT is a killer. I am pancking as the dark nights are drawing in and I don't have a trailer etc to even hire indoor/outdoor schools and I really need to keep my boy in work throughout winter.
Hi Eeyore, if you PM me with the name of the brothers and I will give them a call. We are pricing up materials ourselves at the moment so if we could get a quote for the construction that would be great.
Regards
Mairi
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Hi Skippedeedooda, I have PM'd you.