The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: waterhouse on July 18, 2011, 09:22:05 am
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We have a ragwort problem as a result of our neighbours (who don't farm or maintain their land) having a major problem. Fortunately the worst field, which is bright yellow at the moment, is downwind. We will get a splendid thistle crop a bit later.
We have three uncut boy lambs which we put into a small paddock well away from the girls. Wet knew there was some ragwort in there but the grass was lush and varied so it was with some surprise that we noticed the boys consuming the flowering shoots as they came up from the rosettes.
The boys aren't likely to have a long life anyway and I've now topped the paddock and collected the arisings to limit their consumption. Does anyone know which bits of the plant are the most poisonous and whether this level of grazing will injure the sheep in the short term? I always understood that the plant was distasteful to animals while growing and was most dangerous if dried and fed in forage.
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You are right, cut/dried ragwort results in both more concentrated toxins and also loses its bitterness which would otherwise discourage animals from eating it. So you did exactly the right thing by removing the toppings, if people arent going to remove the toppings they are better leaving the ragwort or (better) pulling up the whole plant. By topping the field you will encourage shorter sweeter grass which the sheep might prefer too! If you drop a coin in the grass and cant see it, it might be too long for sheep.
Ragwort is toxic to sheep but proportionately to body weight they have to eat a lot more of it than cattle and horses for it to have serious consequences. So for most sheep, the end comes by other means long before ragwort kills them. Sheep (like cattle and horses) will normally avoid eating the plant too, altho they will eat the young, less bitter and less toxic rosettes in spring if stocked at fairly high density, which can be useful in ragwort control. It is unusual for them to choose to eat the flowering stalks tho, is it dry where you are, has it started to wilt a bit, that might make it more palatable?
Sprays have a role too but it depends on the situation; we inherited 30 years worth of rampant ragwort on 40 acres, but cant spray because our water and that of our neighbours comes directly from the fields we would be spraying. As a result we use a mix of topping, pulling and sheep to try to make headway, we will also be ploughing and reseeding some fields in the future.
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Lambs will tend to try pretty much anything, especially now mum's not there to tell them no. So they'll probably discover that ragwort flowers are bitter and stop eating them.
In the 70s I worked on the Guinness estate near Thetford, where the beef herd was moved around the 25,000 farmed acres as required. They'd be put in areas where the grasses were taller than the young calves to clear ready for sheep to follow. I was told that one reason was that the cattle would avoid the flowering ragwort, and once they'd eaten off the long grass leaving the ragwort plants standing proud, it was safe to put the sheep in. If the sheep went in when all the foliage was tall they'd eat everything including the ragwort.
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Sorry to butt in here and skew the topic subject a little bit but I have always wondered about this...
I know there was a debate on ragwort on the forum (somewhat heated) last year....
Anyway, from what I understand the toxins from the ragwort collect in, accumulatively, and affect the liver. We are told to wear gloves and masks when handling the stuff because it is so toxic....yet, and heres my pondering...We humans eat lambs liver! What could that effect have on us?
Many farmers...and this is personal observation from driving around our area.... seem happy to graze their sheep on heavily infected fields. One can assume that their sheep will eventually be getting into the food chain...has there been any investigation into the accumulation of the toxins in carcusses destined for consumption?
I prefer to dig the blasted plants up and burn the b***ers!
Emma T
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from my experience with ragwort sheep eat the plant in the spring and can kill the plant off it does affect the liver of animals that consume it (we lost one bullock and the other was saved but never done well after it) cut and dried it is more toxic purchased hay with ragwort in it contravenes the sale of goods act pulling the weed does affect you like organophosphate poisoning :farmer:
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As ragwort is one of the noxious weeds that we are obliged by law to control, I think you would have a case against your neighbours for doing nothing about their infested land. I don't know at all where you make enquiries about how to proceed but perhaps someone here will know.
Having said that, there is always ragwort growing away happily round the Edinburgh bypass and the Council doesn't seemed concerned with their statutory duty to deal with it ::)
Just seen the other post where Happy Hippy says there is no legal duty to clear it - oh well ;D
The question about whether the toxins accumulate in the liver is interesting - it isn't just ragwort toxin either of course, but in general I suppose lambs are eaten when still young so would not have too great a build-up of toxins, plus we don't eat a diet solely composed of lambs livers (in fact I never eat liver :P) It would be interesting to know if any research has been done...........
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I have just insisted that the person who owns the field next to mine does something about the ragwort (ina nice neighbourly way). he was apologetic but it is currently being treated so I am winning! i have also dug up any I have seen on my little piece of land which came from last years seedlings - what a job that was! I have also noticed that my local borough has an issue with not clearing it this year. i knw there are cut backs in expenditure - but it will be ten times worse nect year - perhaps I should phone them up and ask them to do something about it - perhaps they have to if someone reports it?
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We had a dreadful ragwort problem when we first bought our fields and spent a couple of summers pulling it. We then spent a couple more summers pulling ragwort in our neighbours fields to stop it seeding into ours. I counted fourteen plants on our land today so will get up there with the garden fork this evening.(ground too dry to pull!)
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If you speak to DEFRA they can insist your neighbour does something about the ragwort if you can show it's likely to affect your stock. There is some evidence that pulling ragwort can make the problem worse in the long run. We use a selective weedkiller on fields with no stock currently on them, and if we need to kill ragwort in a field with stock in we use Barrier H which is citronella oil: very effective and the stock won't eat the dead plants, but boy is it expensive. You can spot spray it though.
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http://scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/12/03104249/13 (http://scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/12/03104249/13)
Link to Scottish Government guidance.
Why does pulling ragwort make the problem worse in the long run?
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no i dispute that statement sorry to those that have posted we pulled the ragwort over a number of years and eliminated it
also had a look at the fields responsible for our infestation and they are not as dense as they used to be :farmer:
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When we first bought our smallholding we had a visit from the One Cornwall (I think) outfit that were there to help with agricultural/rural initiatives. The guy who came was a farmer himself and he had a tramp around our field to give us his views on what we might do with it. We owned up to being complete Newbies and ex-townies and he was very understanding. When he came across a ragwort plant in the field he said the best thing we could do for the field was to uproot all the ragworts when we came across them, and also to control (spray with thistlex) the thistles. He explained about the toxicity and that if we wanted to make hay then we really needed to make sure there was no ragwort.
We did that diligently for the first 2 summers and we seem to have eradicated the ragwort ;D ;D Also the thistle burden is miles less.
We do have some ragwort 'reservoirs' in the various fields around us, but as we only have 4 acres we can keep on top of it ;D
Tish
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I think it might be like spear thistles where you get a better result if you wait until the plant has put all its energy into raising its flower spike before you pull it.
Like you all, we had ragwort here when we came, we pulled it all out over a couple of years and now we just get the occasional one from seeds which float in on the breeze. We have already walked the neighbours hay field we will be cutting and pulled all of that too. But it must be really daunting to have a whole field or a whole smallholding full of the stuff - you need to organise a barbeque and ragwort pulling party ;D
For spear thistles it works to dig them up once they are about to flower, although new ones keep coming back for years from old seeds, and for creeping thistle it has worked here to top them frequently so they never flower and they just go somewhere else 8)
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Unlike topping which can turn ragwort from being biennial to a perennial albeit preventing seed distribution so still worthwhile), pulling it up does not make it more prevalent, rather the opposite, provided it is done just before flowering as others have said, and provided you get the whole root out and leave nothing behind. That means pulling carefully in light/wet soild but using a ragfork designed for the purpose in heavy or dry compacted ground.
Certainly the paddocks we have pulled the ragwort regularly in are much much better now than they were 3 or 4 years ago when we moved here.
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We have a big problem down here, but our sheep do graze it off when its a young plant and they don't show any obvious side effects. Some of our ewes are well up in their teens.
It is worth mentioning that ragwort is the foodstuff of the cinnabar moth catapillar so total irradication would not be good.
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We certainly pull ours, so I was a bit suprised (and concerned) to see that there was evidence that it made the problem worse, since that's what we've been doing. There was also nothing to that effect in the SG booklet. It makes the same point about cutting turning it from biennial to perennial.
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i read that the toxin doesnt get passed down the food chain, so eating lambs liver wont give u the ragwort toxin.
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thats reasuring....can you remember your sorce?
ET
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Re the cinnabar moth : yes it's endangered, but there are billions upon billions of ragwort plants in this country if you count the plants plus the seeds which can lie dormant for over 20 years. There is absolutely no chance of ragwort ever becoming a rare plant!!: but currently it is completely out of control.
In experiments the numbers of cinnabar moths when given sparse ragwort or pasture choked with it showed no substantive difference in population growth. So while some ragwort is important for the moths, control of it near livestock or forage crops is no going to affect its growth in numbers dramatically. If every single ragwort plant we could get to in the country was removed, there would still be many hundreds of times those needed for the cinnabar moth left in locations which arent easily accessible! Plenty left for Mr Moth.
While we rely on physical methods of control (which will always be the case for most areas where ragwort thrives), there will always be plenty for the moth and it is a red herring in the debate over how best to control it in the areas where it is causing animals to die agonising deaths.
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This place was infested with ragwort when we came here - now we have none.
Yes, pulling does help but you need to do it for a number of years to see much difference and it is a sod of a job.
THe best way to eradicate it is to graze REALLY hard (and I mean REALLY REALLY) with sheep in the spring when the rosettes are coming up. This seriously weakens the plants and they never recover. At this stage of growth, the plants are less toxic so do no harm to the sheep. You have to graze hard, otherwise the sheep will eat the grass and leave the ragwort. They need to be also on bare earth!! It is tough on your sheep, but it will deal with the ragwort. Do it for a couple of seasons, and thereafter, ruthlessy pull up any ragwort that you see. I haven't seen on here for about three years.
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In my (limited!) experience, our sheep will happily take the young ragwort rosettes. (Hebrideans with a few crosses). Any cumulative effect is very slow, we have some very old ewes! I would be interested to know about the liver/toxin build up though.
Agree that ragwort shouldn't be eliminated entirely, as it's a native plant and a valuable nectar source for bees etc as well as the aforementioned moth - however I doubt it will become endangered at any point soon!
I've found rubber gloves, or those with rubber grippy bits, work better for pulling than the special little forks you can get. :farmer:
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A horse hoofpick helps with the teeny tiny plants, better than a ragfork. The hook slides under the base of the plant and teases it up out of the ground nicely.
Emma T
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Oh - forgot to ask..
does anyone know what concentration of citronella works? i have a bottle of pure C-oil i bought from the chemist, may work out cheaper than the preparitory stuff.
Emma T
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I have 10 acres and inherited quite a big problem with ragwort - forests to be precise :o
I sprayed it for 3 years in a row (commercial sprayer came in each spring and fields left 6 weeks ungrazed) which helped no end, but now I am overstocked and the only paddock I could leave empty I could only handspray and it's worse than ever so I'm pulling 1-3 barrows a day of the stuff :( The back field has wee rosettes again and half a dozen rows of mature plants which have clearly grown in gaps between the spraying rows, possibly due to wind drift ::) but they're reasonably simple to clear up. The other 2 paddocks I pulled the preflowering ones but more have sprung up so it's got yellow flowers again >:( and I can't go back to those til I finish the infested one ::) so it seems never ending again, like back in the early days 9 odd years back :o
I think sheep may be the answer so if I have chicken wire left from the pen I'm making at the moment (in between pulling ragwort ::) ) then I'll use it to infill the one bit of fencing that is just plain wire rather than rylock, and then I'm going shopping for weaned lambs :D
Because I need them for weed control, grass tidying and of course the wool for home produced felting - so not a pet or another few mouths to feed but a working animal. I need them, not want them, so that's ok then ;D
How many per acre to get the ragwort low level first year stuff cleared? 5-6 Shetlands?
PS if anyone is bored and fancies a ragwort pulling party I'm open to offers and happy to provide some form of catering ;)
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sorry ellied not for me the toxins affect me even the heady smell goes for me we used to be amazed at the high level of infestation over in fifeshire up the m90 corridor :farmer:
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It's foul stuff, isn't it? We had a bad infestation when we took over 2 years ago but I went mad at pulling it last year - I think I am a worlsd expert of ragwort in all it's stages - and it is a lot better this year.
It annoys me when people go on about the cinnabar moth. It's hardly going to go short of food. What is o about farm animals that people don't seem to have a regard for their welfare? Foxes, oh yes, moths, definitely but sheep and cattle - obviously owned by rich farmers and therefore not worthy of sympathy!
Sorry - rant over!
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Oooh now steady ,i never said don't control it. we have a huge problem here i would never advocate not pulling it up, it's all about striking the right balance like foxes, badgers rabbits etc they all have their place but in moderation. we find our sheep seek it out, they love it but only when it's a young plant and actively growing, dried its lethal.
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Ragwort Facts
Information on Ragwort in the UK from a scientific perspective
Ragwort and meat some expert opinions
The following is a quote taken from another website, the reference to which is below. It is by by Dr Peter Cheeke of Animal Sciences Department Oregon State University a leading researcher into Ragwort. In the USA ragwort has become a problem because like many species released into a foreign ecology it is not controlled by its natural predators and diseases. This is not the case in the UK where it is a native and natural part of the ecosystem.
The PA [ pyrroldizine alkaloids] are not accumulated in the tissues; it is the damage that is cumulative. The damage is confined to the liver, which in an animal with ragwort toxicity would be shrunken and fibrotic. The carcass would likely be condemned because of the liver damage. In sheep which had consumed ragwort but did not show obvious liver damage, there would be no residues of PA in the meat. The PA are metabolized in the liver, and excreted as conjugates in the urine. Small amounts of pyrrole bound to DNA in the liver would not be measurable. Thus in my judgement there is no concern whatsoever about possible human toxicity from consumption of meat from sheep which had consumed ragwort.
Another source of information on this subject comes from a standard text book Chemistry and Toxicology of Pyrrolizidine Alkaloids which is written by Dr A. R. Mattocks of the Toxicology unit in the UK's Medical Research Council Laboratories
There is no record of PAs being detected in meat products from livestock which might have ingested PAs. Past experience with laboratory animals suggest that levels of PAs in the tissues fall very rapidly after intake. Metabolism by liver enzymes is fast, at least in the rat, and toxic metabolites are quickly deactivated. During the chronic ingestion of PAs the effects of the alkaloids are cumulative in the liver but the alkaloids themselves are not. Thus we anticipate that concentrations of Pas in tissues would only be be high is the animals were killed very soon after a massive intake.
Reference http://forages.oregonstate.edu/main.cfm?PageID=230&topic=Animals (http://forages.oregonstate.edu/main.cfm?PageID=230&topic=Animals)
See also Ragwort poisoning in Humans
www.ragwortfacts.com (http://www.ragwortfacts.com)
just what i read...decide yourselves.
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I read the Weeds Act 1959 (which seems to cover Scotland as well) and the DEFRA guidance is attached here http://www.defra.gov.uk/forms/files/weed2a.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/forms/files/weed2a.pdf)
Enforcement can only be done via DEFRA for whom it's a low priority, though it does say that land used for grazing or production of forage is prioritised. It also requires one to have attempted to get the offender to fix the problem first. I'm going to try the neighbourly approach first, but the land runs with a house that reckons it's worth £1.5m so will be owned by a lawyer, accountant or suchlike. We have a lot of houses with a couple of acres around here - we're already farming three such neighbours properties. The downwind property is owned by a Mr Smith who is a Traveller with numerous planning infractions elsewhere
In answer to the earlier question the lambs ate the fresh flowering shoots as they were coming out of the ground rather than the leaves. My observation is that the rosette of leaves forms and then the flowering shoots head upwards very rapidly. The big yellow flowers we're seeing now are a metre+ high
We use the ragfork to remove plants on pasture as we find them, but the less problematic neighbouring land has several hundred ragwort bushes with thistles close behind.
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Thank you PrincessPiggy - that does it for me 8)