The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: princesspiggy on July 16, 2011, 07:13:36 pm
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any idea why oxford sandy and blacks arent on the RBST website ( even on their unendangered list) i thought they were british and 300 hundreds years old?
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I think (only think, mind) that they were extinct and are regarded by RBST as a reconstituted breed, but I'm sure others will know more.
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They are a reconstituted breed. There was only one small inbred herd left so the breed was saved by three main breeders using Large Black, Berkshire and Tamworth. I've met two of the three saving breeders and they stress that it is very similar to the original. Lovely breed we had two last year- amazing meat and a fab beginners pig :pig: :pig: I think the RBST is considering at the moment whether to accept it.
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That's right. A RBST representative told me the RBST is considering recognising it.
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thats interesting, something new to learn :D. is it still a minority breed then, obviously recognized and registered by BPA tho.
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That's right. A RBST representative told me the RBST is considering recognising it.
Aye, Ruth Dalton told me the same. Chase her in about 6 months she said - and she said that about 7 weeks ago... :tick: :tock:
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T he RBST are willing to accept OSBs but they need the breed society to get a move on and furnish them with info they require this has been discussed at the OSB AGM i believe;but we are no further on many moths later. Previous heads at RBST did not recognise their status but they and that view has since changed.It would be a big help to get them recognised help with A.I etc.
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Oh! I'm sure Ruth told me the info had now been received - this was at the end of May.
Anyone on here from OSB Soc? Or RBST?
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I'm a sec of an RBST group and a member of the OSB breed society and have been actively trying to get things moving.
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The first OSB herd book wasn't published until 1985. Historically there were a few animals that claimed in the 1950s-60s to be OSBs but without a pedigree record there was no proof. Almost certainly there was no direct link between these pigs and those that came into being in the 1970s/80's claiming to be OSBs but, as Bioman says, were almost certainly crossbred from other breeds.
The RBST Rare Breeds Acceptance Procedure states that to qualify, there must have been an official herd book for at least six generations which they now have. But it also demands that a breed has been known for 75 years and this will be much harder to prove. I have been through virtually all livestock books published since the middle of the 19th c and references to OSB since (or indeed before) 1936 until the 1950s are virtually nil. Further, a check on the archives of Farmers Weekly and Farmer & Stockbreeder gives no further evidence of the breed being able to fulfil this criteria.
My personal belief is that we know already that the 'unimproved' Berkshire was a sandy coloured pig with black splodges as depicted in Low's book of British livestock in 1840. The stronghold of the Berkshire breed was around Wantage where Berkshire and Oxfordshire meet and that pigs of this type remained in the area and were know locally as OSBs without ever fulfilling the criteria of being a pedigree breed.
It will be interesting to see what evidence is presented to the RBST to fulfil their criteria and whether they accept it.
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is this for RBST to recognize a breed a pedigree or to recognize it as rare? i thought (with chickens anyway) that if it can be recreated today, then it is not rare, unless one side of the genetic family was extinct and that prevented it from being recreated again? ??? :wave:
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It is both really. If a 'breed' cannot fulfil the criteria the RBST established as a viable, historic breed, then they can't consider whether it's rare or not. Poultry is a whole different ball game as there is no pedigree record as such. It takes quite a few generations of sometimes intense in-breeding to establish a new 'breed' of cattle, sheep, pigs etc. and no breed exists today of any domestic quadruped which is the result of a simple cross between two existing breeds. This is why, for instance, the attempts by certain individuals to recreate breeds such as the Cumberland, Ulster Large White and Lincolnshire Curly Coat will never come to anything meaningful. They might manage to create a lookalike but that is as close as they can get. It's no nearer the real thing than a tribute band or an impressionist on TV and can never be without a detailed knowledge of the building blocks and exact replication of the breeding that went into the original. As that was never recorded and most of the building blocks themselves have changed or disappeared completely, it is a futile effort that can achieve nothing.
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on the same theme did anybody watch countrywise kitchen last night and the b*****ks that was broadcast nationwide about mangalitzas being passed of as linconshire curly coats to much marketing spiv praying on the gullable no bloody wonder the British pig industry is having problems :farmer:
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I saw some of it Robert, We were at the show Janet Street Porter took her Mangas to and our Ruby bless her tries to get thro the fence and eat them! ;D As shes pedigree GOS she heartily disagreed with their presence in her class, pleased to say the show has now made them go in the Novelty class which is what they are!!!
Mandy :pig:
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pleased to say the show has now made them go in the Novelty class which is what they are!!!
Mandy :pig:
Mangalitzas are a traditional breed from abroad, they are not a novelty or a joke. They were (and in some places still are) bred for meat, and just as with the Kune Kune have a place in pig keeping and breeding. They are recognised by the BPA and have pedigrees, so don't see why Ruby should think herself superior. I see no reason why people should not show them, they are judged against their own standard as are all pigs in mixed classes.
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I have to admit I was a tad upset at Lesmahagow show when the Mangalitza's and the Kune Kunes were put in the same class, but the real killer for me was not to have either breed in the ring when judging overall show champion :(
It's horses for courses, but I agree with Oaklands - there is a place for them in the meat market and the pedigree show ring.
I know we've all got our favourites - but don't dis' the little guys - and lets not start pigling rivalry ;) ;D ;D ;D
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steady on there oaklands mangalitzas are Hungarian and that area they are also breed for lard (70 litres of rendered fat from a mature pig )
nearly 400 pigs at yorkshire and no mangalitzas far better of competing against pigs from the same breed as bunched all together
same happens in sheep classes now if you want a weekend of adult fun with the bidie in or anyone Else's get a cooked mangalitza ham with some horseraddish sauce yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmm even the fat melts in your mouth ;) :farmer: ;)
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Probably wrong saying they are a novelty but they are not a British Breed and i'm tired of people trying to pass them off as the saviour of the Lincs Curly coat! and i don't see why they should be in the BPA after all its the BRITISH pig association but then the BPA is another story and they'll take money from anyone! and then theres the argument that if Mangas are in the BPA why can't KK's, as HH says everyone has their favourites and they're just not my cup of tea. At least OSB's do have some British provenance and its only recent that the BPA has reconised them.
Mandy :pig:
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Good debate !
Robert - Yes I totally agree with you that where quantities allow, then breed classes should take place, I am always happiest when my saddlebacks are being judged against other saddlebacks. Unfortunately whilst this can happen in some parts of the country or at larger shows, and where numbers are not sufficient I would always prefer mixed classes than no classes, or judging of classes of 1 or 2 pigs.
Mandy - perhaps I over reacted to your choice of words, but am all for encouraging people to show pigs. And I am as keen as you are that they are not a substitute curly coat !!
Having showed various other animals and found the handlers to be bitchy, devious, and selfish, it has been a real eye opener in the last couple of years to find out that pig showing is different. We've met a really nice crowd of pig people, who help each other and are as pleased when you win, as we are when beaten by a cracking pig. Many of the sows we go to are small affairs and individual breed classes are not practical.
However showing whilst fun, and good discipline for ensuring that you keep best for breeding, is for me only half the point. Getting the public interested in preserving all breeds of pig, mainly by reconnecting with their food and eating them, but also getting some into pig keeping is vital if we are not to just keep museum pieces. To this end I would much prefer JSP and her Mangas at a show than not. Our Mangalitza at the South of England show generated a lot of interest from the general piblic, and sparked lots of conversations where we were able to explain about where pork comes from, conversations that would not have started without her.
Final thought - just about every other farm animal (or indeed any animals that people show) has breds from all over the world eg the Simmental cow from switzerland, Texel sheep from Holland, Angora goat from Turkey, countless poultry breeds etc. so why should pig showing not represent the breeds that are kept in the UK, not just those that originated?
Crikey this horse is getting awfully high, so time to get off it!!:) :)
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It would seem the animal world is as cosmopolitan as the british population has now become and whilst the majority are welcome i personally feel though that their inclusion should not be to the detriment of our own native breeds whatever the animal species.
Likewise i am all for encouraging people to go showing, as you say piggy people are a different breed and so willing to help each other out.
And just as an addition to this at Driffield show this week a party of school children came to the pig tent and i got talking to their teacher and she told me they had just been to see the cattle and one child had asked her why the horse had horns!, City kids she said just have no idea (they'd come from Hull) about farm animals or where their food comes from. A very sad endeightment of todays society and education. Which makes it the more important that we get out there with our animals and promote what they're all about.
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I would just add that mixed classes are hard enough for judges anyway but if the likes of KKs and Mangalitzas are included it can become more so. Wherever possible they should be kept seperate as their breed standards are very different from those of our native breeds. This is as much for the benefit of their owners as their competitors as it is very unlikely that a KK could beat a half decent native pig in such circumstances. Think of a class of working hunters with a Shetland pony among them.
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Point taken, Mr Pig, but if we want to show our mangalitzas we have to enter them in whichever class the show decides, so they may be up against KKs or rarer native British breeds.
And Mandy, I would never claim our mangalitzas are Lincolnshire curly coats, though I do tell the story of the curly coat to the inquisitive visitors the mangalitzas get so they realise how important it is to prevent other native British breeds from becoming extinct. We raise mangalitzas because they make beautiful charcuterie, so they may be novel, but they're not novelty!
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Tiva Diva,
well explained and just how it should be but as i said mangas are just not my cup of tea, stroked one of JSP's at the aforementioned show and the feel just put my teeth on edge like chalk squealed down a blackboard! Yuk. My GOS can get very hairy in winter but nothing like that it just gave me the cringes but then i'm the same about things with feathers which is why we don't have hens! Guess i'm just strange. ;D
Each to his own its what makes the world go round :)
Mandy :pig:
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fowgill i clicked on the results of driffield and they listed them as coloured pigs white pigs and pure breed pigs
tiva diva one thing explaining the demise of the linconshire curly coats it is wrong for any plonker on the telly passing them of as something they are not anybody got a pure white horse i could cobble a unicorn together :farmer:
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There was a programme on the telly a while back with a Lincolnshire estate i forget which claiming to have the ONLY surviving herd of Lincolnshire curly coat pigs :o with visitors flocking to see them etc etc etc
Robert you are doubtless right about the hype and the vulnerability of those less well informed but keen to know :pig: