The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: pikilily on July 11, 2011, 08:01:07 am
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this is our new girl. she is ten weeks old, bright as a new button, and already a real character. I hope that i will be able to train her to help me with the sheep, LOL !!!
She will be a house dog too!
Looking for tips on laying the basics for working sheepdogs!!!!
Emma T
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she is lovely, she looks very cheeky :wave:
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:) Shes a pretty dog, nice photo too, good luck with trainning!!!! :dog:
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She's lovely. We've got a tricolour Meg too.
Try henderson-hill border collies. Very nice people, very experienced and very helpful.
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Nice! - Looks like a cross between our Meg and Molly with added brown bits. Hope we never go to a sheepdg convention and someone shouts Come Here Meg and 100 dogs come running!
Simon
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I have a collie called Meg, but she is called lots of other names too none of them repeatable! still we love her even when she and the sheep dissappear into the next field and the next and the next............!!!!!!
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She is lovely :D
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She's gorgeous!
I am a fan of Derek Scrimgeour's methods - I use his book Talking Sheepdogs and DVD The Shepherd's Pup. I'm also lucky enough to live nearby to where he does his training clinics, so I attend the odd day or two at those. Although his training is aimed very much at a trialling dog, all his techniques work for dogs who will work for real on a farm. All his dogs work on the hill or he won't breed from them, and most if not all will have had a period living and working on a farm learning their sheep sense.
I like his methods as it's all about harnessing the natural behaviours of the dog, telling it what it's doing ('put a word to it') so it can learn to follow commands (or 'invitations' as they should be, especially with a young dog.) He says it's pointless telling any dog - but especially a collie - off for what it's just done, as the dog is already thinking about what it's doing now or is about to do! So, for instance, he'll 'threaten the ground' (point a poly pipe and perhaps also growl at it) just ahead of where the dog is; the dog will avoid that bit of ground and widen its run.
Whoever's methods you choose, you will have the most rewarding relationship you can imagine as you and your pup start to work as a team. I've had dogs all my adult life, and done obedience and agility and so on, but the feeling of working sheep with your collie workmate is in a league all of its own.
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Thanks for all the positive comments. I have been told by an old shepherd/trialler from aberdeen that shes a 'cracker'. LOL whilst i am blethering to his wife he was chacking her alllllll over, teeth, eyes, legs, the lot !!! I got her from my sheepy-guru. Her sire is an international stud for working dogs and her mum is an agility champ (owned by Mrs Guru who judges at crufts and teaches all over)....perhaps i have taken on a real challenge!!!!
I have had 'hunners' of dogs all my days... but this is the first working style collie.
Sally - your man seems to be talking my sort of language...will check it out. She has already been herding my other dog, Oddy, when she is out playing so i have been 'telling her what she is doing' ie come by etc!! LOl its funny using a different language. Especially 'that'll do' cos i always want to add the 'PIG' bit ;D ;D ;D ;D
she is already showing understanding of sit, liedown, that'll do, come, no, and of course her name. i have also been using a whistle to get her attention to be followed by a 'command' depending on whether she comes, stands, sits or lies down- so far so good I hope!! ?????
Emma T :dog:
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Julie and Bobby use similar methods to Derek, by the sounds of it. They're in Heriot, Midlothian.
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They're in Heriot, Midlothian.
ooh, do u think james herriot (real name james wight) named himself after heriot? cos he was scottish and studied in that area.?
cute pup, id love a working beardie to help me out so let us know how ur training goes!! :wave: :wave:
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LOL - my writing skills arent up to competing with Bridget Jones but we could run with a training diary of a Collie-flower!
Emma T
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I found when training my collie it was easier after exercise as he focused better and wasn't quite so eager, but alas he is scared of sheep and haven't been able to persuade him otherwise he spend his time in the field with his head up my jumper and scrape with his nails trying to climb up so he can get the rest of his body up there too
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I found when training my collie it was easier after exercise as he focused better and wasn't quite so eager, but alas he is scared of sheep and haven't been able to persuade him otherwise he spend his time in the field with his head up my jumper and scrape with his nails trying to climb up so he can get the rest of his body up there too
ahh bless!
p - a diary wud be great! please do it! how do u select a working pup from a litter from working parents? with 3 (useless? lol) dogs already, when we eventually get our working beardie pup, id be very disappointed if it wouldnt work.
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Good luck with her, we followed Derek S's way of training as far as we could . My dogs are so different and strong headed they are too bloody minded for trials but are brilliant on the hill where they use their own initiative a bit more. A good trial dog may be useless on the hill so get to know your dog and his mind so you can use what he has in his head to your advantage. I have one dog that is brilliant at rounding the sheep up , he is very wide and will sweep the hill to bring everyone back but when he has brought them to us he will just lay and stare at them like a zombie ::).Another 'close work dog' will then take over and pen them. They are all different, a dog that will do it all is worth its weight in gold.
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LOL - she will probably decide that this is all too much hard work!! and refuse to do anything......time will tell!
Emma T
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ooh, do u think james herriot (real name james wight) named himself after heriot? cos he was scottish and studied in that area.?
I think he got the name from Herriot Watt University, where he studied? Someone will correct me if that's wrong!
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she is already showing understanding of sit, liedown, that'll do, come, no, and of course her name. i have also been using a whistle to get her attention to be followed by a 'command' depending on whether she comes, stands, sits or lies down- so far so good I hope!! ?????
Emma T :dog:
I personally wouldn't use a whistle at all at the moment, if you want to use it to command her in the future anyway. Just teach her to "here" when called, not come, because Come Bye is the command to go clockwise and don't use stay either as it's too similar to Away which is the command to go anti clockwise.
Her name, lie down and here is all you really need just now. You want her to be well socialised but not over the top in everyone's face, because you don't want her to have toooo big an ego!
What I do with pups is say "puppy puppy puppy" in a high pitched voice to get their attention, then say here/their name. Once it's a bit older you dispense with the puppy puppy as you don't need it now. If you do that religiously you will end up with a dog which always come when you call it's name, because it has never ever ignored that command.
What area are you in, I could suggest a good trainer in your area if you like.
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so how do u teach clockwise/anti clockwise?
:farmer:
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We use a round pen to teach the directions. Just a circle of fence in which you 1/2 doz sheep. A dog will always stay opposite you and keep the sheep between you so you just walk different ways then the dog will go different ways to compensate. When the dog goes left or right nturally you shout the command to what he is doing, then he will by association learn that command. Does that make sense?
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Aaaahhh, good points Corrie Dhu ! thank you so much...taking it on board immediately ;D
Meg is already doing the 'Away to me' and 'Come by' *game*...although she doesnt know it. She circles around Oddy our other dog and i put the words to it according to which direction she is going. I do now sort of wonder if this is a good idea, cos she may learn that these commands are to do with circling other dogs rather than sheep??? ??? ?????? Maybe i should leave that.
My concept was to just use the oportunity to 'label' anything she is doing which is desirable behaviour.
I am waiting for some training books and videos to arrive, hopefully today. Yes I know that a good trainer is by far the best thing. i am just north of Dundee. LOL.... i do wonder if Mr Sheep-guru (who bred her) may be a little nose-out-of-joint if i went to a trainer because he trains his own dogs too! Prob not, because he is so keen for me to learn and have Meg as a useful dog.
thanks again for the timely tips.... i will welcome any more gems you can think of. xxxxx
Emma T
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i do wonder if Mr Sheep-guru (who bred her) may be a little nose-out-of-joint if i went to a trainer because he trains his own dogs too! Prob not, because he is so keen for me to learn and have Meg as a useful dog.
i would think the better trained your dog was, then the better advert for his dogs, as he bred her. i shouldnt think using a trainer would matter, just the end result. good luck
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Yeh, PP.... hes a good guy!! He is so keen to teach me as much as he can, with both the sheep and the dogs. And i am so keen to learn all i can. He would not be 'jealous' I am sure! We are constantly swapping and borrowing things and he comes round on a very regular basis to check my sheep over, and give advice.
It will be the same with Meg too, I am certain. He has kept her brother from the same litter so it will be interesting to see how they develope and change.
Emma T
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Meg is already doing the 'Away to me' and 'Come by' *game*...although she doesnt know it. She circles around Oddy our other dog and i put the words to it according to which direction she is going. I do now sort of wonder if this is a good idea, cos she may learn that these commands are to do with circling other dogs rather than sheep??? ??? ?????? Maybe i should leave that.
My concept was to just use the oportunity to 'label' anything she is doing which is desirable behaviour.
Absolutely the right concept, but yes I think I would not label circling the other dog(s) - potentially very confusing, especially if you might ever work two dogs at once! Quite a lot of people teach using runner ducks, there's not a lot of room for confusion there - unless your ducks graze in amongst your sheep!
There does tend to be quite a bit of rivalry amongst trainers who trial - and I am told that some will give deliberately bad advice to promising newcomers! Clearly a minefield.... ;)
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Big LOL, Sally, i think it is going to be a tall order working the one dog - the concept of me working two is making me giggle!
BTW, i only have four ewes and their associated lambs (9) ;D ;D ;D so hardly going to be over working Meg!
seriously i will give the *game* around Oddy a miss. Can i ask is it ok to 'direct' or label around me! ie is the dog working clockwise or anti round/from the handler or is it just the sheep....if you get my drift?
emma T
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Can i ask is it ok to 'direct' or label around me! ie is the dog working clockwise or anti round/from the handler or is it just the sheep....if you get my drift?
Absolutely not, no, do not label 'flank' moves with respect to yourself, that would get very confusing when she's working sheep and you off to one side, or in front, or behind... Always with respect to the sheep (or ducks if used for training.) Traditionally Come by = clockwise around sheep, Away = anti-clockwise around sheep.
Derek would say you should be striving to have her not need to look at you at all, so that you can direct her from anywhere and she does not need to take her eye off the sheep. Given your small flock, unless you think you may do trials, I don't suppose the niceties matter too much. ;)
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thanks Sally ...... ;D ;D. My dvd (Scrimgeour) arrived today, so after Torchwood tonight i will take a sneaky wee look!
Emma T
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Aaaahhh, good points Corrie Dhu ! thank you so much...taking it on board immediately ;D
Meg is already doing the 'Away to me' and 'Come by' *game*...although she doesnt know it. She circles around Oddy our other dog and i put the words to it according to which direction she is going. I do now sort of wonder if this is a good idea, cos she may learn that these commands are to do with circling other dogs rather than sheep??? ??? ?????? Maybe i should leave that.
My concept was to just use the oportunity to 'label' anything she is doing which is desirable behaviour.
I am waiting for some training books and videos to arrive, hopefully today. Yes I know that a good trainer is by far the best thing. i am just north of Dundee. LOL.... i do wonder if Mr Sheep-guru (who bred her) may be a little nose-out-of-joint if i went to a trainer because he trains his own dogs too! Prob not, because he is so keen for me to learn and have Meg as a useful dog.
thanks again for the timely tips.... i will welcome any more gems you can think of. xxxxx
Emma T
No Honestly don't do that. You don't put the command on a sheep dog until it is doing the behaviour on sheep correctly. For instance, if your dog is too tight and you start putting the command on, it will always be tight. You want it working without commands on sheep, properly (keeping the right distance off the sheep, not biting them etc!) before you put flank commands on.
You don't need to teach a dog to go clockwise and anti-clockwise per say as it is a natural behaviour. Some dogs are more one sided than others and need to be encouraged to go both ways, but that comes later.
Also I would not let her herd the other dogs. I never every let my pups do this, as they are potentially learning bad habits and it can go downhill into nipping the other dogs etc.
If the person you bought her from is local and does lessons then that's great. If not, I really don't think he will mind you finding someone local. You really need to go at least once a week to make progress. I am a Shepherd and trial my dogs at National level but I still go for lessons weekly with a top handler. It is very worth it whatever you hope to achieve with the dog, because at the end of the day you are training a dog on sheep, which have feelings too, so it needs to be done right.
At this stage you just want basic obedience, let her be a puppy and forget about her sheep dog career until she is 8 months plus.
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Is it possible good people, to train a much older dog to sheep? We know of a rescue collie who is 4 yrs old and shows sheep dog behaviour and the new owner would like to try her with sheep.
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@ Cracking wee collie there Emma. I agree totally with Sally and Rosemary, especially about D Scrimgeour's methods. I have his dvd and book here. We have an 18 month old who is grand daughter to DS's famous *Ben*, albeit via AI.
To be honest she (Schollie) is hubby's dog so I've been interested in seeing how he trains her. I felt his mistakes were in taking her up to the sheep way too soon and coming in all chuffed and proud because he thought he'd already taught her the come by. Anyway, she's only started proper lessons with a trainer in the last couple of months and still has a way to go. Be patient! She'll come good.
@Feldar. I had two collies over the age of 4 when I first got six sheep ten years ago. With no formal training and a bit of sheer luck, they both managed to work the sheep satisfactory to my needs. Neighbouring farmer used to have a jolly good laugh at us though lol. Good luck.
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Is it possible good people, to train a much older dog to sheep? We know of a rescue collie who is 4 yrs old and shows sheep dog behaviour and the new owner would like to try her with sheep.
Oh please be careful! Once the genie is out of the bottle it usually doesn't want to go back...
One of the things about collies is the speed at which they learn. And they learn in ways that other types of dog do not learn. The instincts to herd and manage sheep derive from the pack hunting instincts of the collies' wild forebears. It can be a challenge with some dogs to keep that instinct under control and not let it lead on to the kill (or at least, an attack.)
I have assumed the new owner does not have experience of training and working collies with sheep. If they do then they probably already know how to move things forward safely.
If the new owner has a flock of their own and the dog will have real work to do, then great and yes I don't see why the dog couldn't be trained to a useful level - although one never knows what quirks an older dog has already picked up, which can be very hard to change. It could even be needing rescuing because it's been a problem with sheep somewhere...
If the dog is to be a pet and not have regular sheep work to do then I would urge very very careful consideration before proceeding. It would be all too easy to end up with a problem collie and be heading for difficult times - and difficult decisions. Much better, in my view, to do agility, flyball, obedience, CaniX, etc, and teach the dog that so much as looking at a sheep is a bad plan.
If the owner does want to go ahead, then, especially if s/he has no experience, I would strongly recommend finding a good dog-and-handler trainer who has experience of working with rescue dogs and with non-farming (if the owner is a non-farmer) novice handlers. (Derek Scrimgeour does, but he's the wrong end of the country!)
It really is very very easy to get a collie that has some instinct to chase sheep. It really is very very very hard to get such a collie to stop chasing sheep once it's had a go...
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I know nothing about sheep dogs but did hear of someone who had one with hearding tendancies and no sheep.
The dog kept trying to round up the children in the garden. Now I leave it to those of you with children to decide if that is a good thing or not ;D ;D
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Completely agree Sally and I would also add, think about the sheep in this. It is acceptable for a dog to be trained on sheep, if it's for the good of the larger population of sheep. A well trained dog doesn't upset sheep. A young/in training dog WILL terrorise sheep while it's learning. If it's not destined to be a sheep dog, what is the point?
Herding cats/children/other dogs is not a sure sign of a wonderful sheep dog just waiting to be trained, it's often a sign of a dog with too much eye which will not be a good sheep dog.
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I have a question......well firstly, i am hearing what you are saying there Sally. 'think hard before trying to train any collie to sheep, do you have/will you have the control to call them off when you dont want the sheep played with' - 'do you have the skills to keep the sheep safe from a very enthusistic collie' ----yeh???
Anyway, back to the question....... Regarding Mr Scrimgeours methods, I watched the start of his video 'The Shepherd's Puppy' last night. it was impressive.... His youngest dog that he was starting to train was 5 months old -that was it's first time on a lead. He talked about the dogs being in kennels, he also said he would teach the dog 'Here' and 'Lie down' (i think), but that would be it. He definately said he would not teach the dog any other obedience for some time -until it was quite a bit older
I ask this question as a pure enquiry, not as any form of critisism or to pick holes in his well proven training programme.
So - what is he doing with his dogs up to five months old. Are they just in the kennels doing absolutely nothing - with no walks, or human interaction apart from feeding? My approach with my all my dogs is that all contact with me is moulding and 'training' even if it is letting them play loose, and playing with them. I can't imagine a total void! Can anyone who knows him and his methods fill in the gaps??? I feel that to do no training at all would leave me with a safety/welfare issue. I would have no control over them in the lanes, and fields about me. they would be able to chew anything in the house, or each other with out any intervention at all.
Can you explain....
Emma T
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I can't speak for him, but from my point of view when I say "do nothing" I'd mean do nothing much, lol. I do have my pups on a lead if I need to stop them getting run over, for instance, but otherwise they are never on a lead when they are young because I don't want them to be drilled into walking to heel etc. I do take them to trials to socialise and things so obviously they are on a lead there.
I would continue as you need to, because your dog is obviously going to be a pet as well as a sheep dog but just bear in mind what you want do with her in the future. Like I have loads of toys around, if the dogs want to play with them that's fine, but I don't play with them with the toys because I want their attitude to life to be serious. However, my first dog I got as a pup I did teach him to fetch a ball etc and he survived!.
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Well I will have to surmise a little about Derek's not-yet-in-training dogs from what I know of him and his family and what I have seen and read about at other collie places - and also from his book, and my own experience of bringing on a collie pup.
Most people want their collies to be well socialised with people and the majority get reared on a family farm. The kids usually make sure that the puppies know all about family life, children etc! It's probably quite typical that mum and kids walk and play with the pup(s) until it's time for training to start - but there will be some 'pre-training' if you like from a very early age. For instance, Derek likes to teach 'here here' for the pup to run straight (like an arrow) into your cupped hands as early as he can. (This is in the book but maybe not on the DVD, I can't remember.)
One of the problems with doing too much training before the sheep work begins is that the dog can become too focussed on looking at the handler. I do have a bit of this with my bitch Dot - if she can't see me the other side of the sheep she sometimes runs back around to check I'm there! Ideally you want them to work without ever needing to look at you - their eyes should be on the sheep and their ears on you.
Of course they get exercised, they'd go mad if they weren't. Plus you want them fit when you start training them! I used a 'stender lead' with Dot, and 'here here' as a recall if she was running free (never in the same field as sheep, not until she had had some training with sheep.) I mostly exercised her with one or more other collies; they know the rules and the pup will mostly tag along with 'big bro' or 'unc'!
Many working collies are not house dogs, and some are. Mine live outside but are welcome in the house from time to time. As a pup, Dot spent time in the house with me - but never left alone, and she had no bed in the house - from early on. Before I became a farmer I would never have expected myself to keep dogs that lived outside, but for dogs that really work (and on the previous farm - 500+ sheep on 1000+ acres of moorland - they really worked) it does seem to be best if they have their own homes where they can be themselves and make their own rules. They also absolutely need time on their own to reflect when they are learning.
Derek's home is a wonderful hill farm way out at the end of a long long country track - he has absolutely no passing traffic to worry about, and all the sheep in the immediate vicinity are his own. I guess he hasn't the same need to leash a dog the rest of us might!
Incidentally, one command I know that Derek would never teach before the dog is around sheep is 'Lie Down'. In fact he may not teach this until they have been training with sheep for 6 months. When he works his collies, 'Lie Down' isn't a single command it's practically a language. It always always means 'focus on the sheep' (hence why he won't teach it until they are working with sheep), and depending on the tone and the circumstances it may mean 'steady up and focus', or 'stop moving forwards and focus' or 'lie down and focus'. (Hence you may see me, or Derek, calling 'lie down' then 'Lie Down' then 'LIE DOWN' - it doesn't mean the dog isn't listening, it may be that the three stages of slowing up and stopping were required to manage the sheep. Or, of course, that the dog isn't listening... ;))