The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Snapper on June 10, 2011, 08:54:25 pm
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Our Parson Russell Terrier had her third (and last) litter in March, she's just turned 6 years old and we've been advised to have her spayed as it would save health problems later on. PRT's live for around 15- 17 years so I guess it'll also save the probs of keeping her away from her 'boy-friend'!
Anyway how long should we leave her after the puppies were born before the op? Vet suggested 3- 4 months. Also has anyone had any experience of bitches being spayed when they are older, will she be ok?
Next questions
We've kept one of the pups and are now wondering should we have the Dog 'done' as well so he can't get to his daughter. He's a lovely boy, but does wander a bit, would the 'snip' solve this prob as well?
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Bitches should be spayed mid way between seasons, so 3 to 4 months after having pups is possibly a little late, but should be OK. The reason is that their hormones are at their lowest then and it minimises the risk of phantom pregnancies after spaying. I would agree that it is wise to spay a bitch if you won't be breeding from her. Ideally I would spay my bitches at around 6/7 but for various reasons Freckles was 9 and had health problems meaning it had to be done almost as an emergency. I haven't yet decvided whether to have oen alst litter from Belle who is now 7 but I will have to make that decision soon. It is pretty awkward having an entire dog and bitch in the same house. I'm fortunate that I can kennel some of mine and haev different exercise areas, but they still know and make an enormous noise on the crucial 3 days!
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I've been away so only just seen this thread. The main reason bitches are best spayed midway between seasons is because wen in or near a season the blod supply to the uterus is increased and there is more chance of haemorrrhage during the surgery. Also the uterus becomes 'friable' so can tear more easily during the surgery. When vet nursing I advised owners to ave them spayed about 2 months after a season, as you can never be sure when they are going to come into season next so the longer you leave it the more chance she may be near to another season. I agree with Doganjo that 3-4 months is a bit late, tho' I think you'll find a bitch which is spayed can't have false pregnancies. As your vet is the one doing the op you should take his/her advice but I would aim for 3 months rather than 4. From my experience I would say that so long as she is fit & healthy (your vet will give her a pre-op check) spaying at 6-7 years wil not cause any problems and shouldn't change her temperament. She may tend to put on weight, but that's the same for young bitches who have been spayed. Far better to have her done than risk her getting a pyometra later. By the time a bitch is showing symptoms. of having a pometra she is already a sick dog and therefore a much greater surgical risk
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I agree with doganjo and geebee a "closed" pyo is very dangerous in bitches as there are not the obvious signs of an "open" pyo. usually a blood stained pus. I would also get the male dog castrated, this prevents testicular cancer and problems with the prostate in later life.
The thinking now is to spay before the bitch has a first season, this reduces the possibilities of unwanted pregnancies, mammary tumours and pyos
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I agree with doganjo and geebee a "closed" pyo is very dangerous in bitches as there are not the obvious signs of an "open" pyo. usually a blood stained pus. I would also get the male dog castrated, this prevents testicular cancer and problems with the prostate in later life.
The thinking now is to spay before the bitch has a first season, this reduces the possibilities of unwanted pregnancies, mammary tumours and pyos
Sorry, but this in my opinion really is 'not on' This is one of these 'encyclicals' from the BVA. If you spay or castrate an animal before it has reached maturity it's growth hormones are restricted and it will not reach it's potential size, or mental maturity. You must wait until they are a year old, and in the case of bitchse have had their first season.
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Thanks all, I'll go with the Vet's 3/4 months. She had the pups on 13th March so we're going to try to arrange pretty soon for the spaying.
After her last litters it was around 8 months before she came in season again, so I think it should be okay. She isn't a big eater, her 'fighting weight' is around 7 kilos and it's reasonably easy to spot if she does put on weight. Last time was when I bought a huge bag of 'working dog food' it was 23% protein and they all put on weight.
I'm not too bothered about weight gain after spaying as our Springer (who was spayed as a youngster) is as fit/trim as any other Spaniel I've come across. In fact her litter sister who hasn't been spayed is around twice her size, but that's another issue.
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WE've got two collies aged 11 years - both were spayed a few months after their first season. Neither of them are fat. Spaying is just the excuse used for folk's fat dogs.
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I'm sure she will do fine being speyed, there is a risk with any anaesthetic but as she is fit and well she will be better off being speyed now than having to be speyed when already sick if she develops a pyo. As long as her milk has dried up well I would agree 3/4 months post parturition. I have 3 bitches who are all now speyed both the collie and GWP before their first season, the spinone more recently at 8. She had 3 GA's over the course of 3 months as she fractured her leg, so had to have it plated, then re operated on then she was speyed and she did fine.
At work we advised speying before the first season as the benefits of reducing the risk of mammary tumours in later life is reduced with each season a bitch has. I'm confident the mental maturity of the German hasn't been affected by being speyed before her first season, she would have been a crazy 6ft gate jumping idiot of a dog either way! The breeder said she would calm down by the time she was 3.......she's 6 and 1/2 and we're still waiting!
If you wait until a dog is over a year old before neutering the behavioural benefits like reducing the chance of wandering/humping/aggresion are not always as good. I would have the boy neutered if he was mine but as he is already aware of how it all works ;) you may not find it has much effect on his wandering but he won't be able to get his daughter
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WE've got two collies aged 11 years - both were spayed a few months after their first season. Neither of them are fat. Spaying is just the excuse used for folk's fat dogs.
Absolutley!
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Doganjo sorry if I have offended you. But I was just passing on info that vets currently give to clients. The vets follow the guidelines set by RCVS I have seen animals that have been spayed at 6 months plus grow and develop without problems, But the clients are given the information for and against spaying and the ages to do so and then make an informed decision. Everyone is entitle to their opinion.
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Doganjo sorry if I have offended you. But I was just passing on info that vets currently give to clients. The vets follow the guidelines set by RCVS I have seen animals that have been spayed at 6 months plus grow and develop without problems, But the clients are given the information for and against spaying and the ages to do so and then make an informed decision. Everyone is entitle to their opinion.
No offence taken. I have 50 years of owning, breeding, showing, judging and working both dogs and bitches - what do I know? ;) ;D A young ffresh out of college vet looking for his next payload is bound to know what is good for a baby - dogs are babies till they are a couple of years old! As you say we are all entitled to our opinion. Some have experience to back that, others haven't. ;D
Spaying AFTER the first season is fine. What I said was it was not good to do it before. There is very little risk of cancers before one year of age. And yes, I agree, some people will blame neutering for their dog's obesity, but some bitches (and humans :'( ::)) can get fat on air!
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And there was me thinking I had found another great excuse for being overweight........Having been 'spayed' a few years ago myself!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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A young ffresh out of college vet looking for his next payload is bound to know what is good for a baby -[/quote]
It would make no odds to a new grad vet's payload, its the practice partner's with all that experience whose income would be boosted.
You learn a lot of sweeping generalisations about dog breeders working in veterinary practice too!
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WeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
That's what I do to distract dogs when they're thinking about shaping up for a scrap. ;) ;D
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Just an update phoned the Vet and got her booked in for beginning of July, it's going to cost £166.69 , wonder how they work out the price?
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It's usually calculated on weight, includes anaesthetic, premed antib's analgesic, surgery and post op care.
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our gsd was spayed at 5yr with no problems. had bladder incontinance for about a year but no problems for 2 years now.
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Once a bitch is past the first season there usually aren't problems, older bitches sometimes have incontinence for a while till the hormones settle down, and sometimes coats can go a bit fluffy, but that is easily remedied with correct grooming. Obesity can be a problem, but it is mostly attributed to owners overfeeding to compensate for doing such a terrible thing to their dog! ::) My routine is to spay my girls at around 7 years, and leave my boys entire. I have to request permission to show if they are neutered, and just try showing a neutered male!!! You get nowhere! A neutered female is of course indetectable.
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doganjo do they not bother with a breeding record for the bitches seems a bit daft to have a perfect bitch and not breed :dog:
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Not quite sure what you mean Robert, but any registered bitch, whether or not she has pups that are also registered, is on the KC database. If a bitch is spayed and is normally shown then you have to request a 'permission to show'. But either way, you can't see whether a bitch has been spayed or not, whereas it is obvious if a dog has been castrated. So not many castrated males are shown even though it is allowed, and they can have 'permission to show' too. Not all good dogs and bitches are bred from. If they were the world would be overrun with dogs. It's not like pigs and sheep where you can breed and eat the progeny. Many mediocre dogs are also bred from. Does that make sense, and does it answer your question?
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maybe or obviously in the dog world things are different
the dog shows are supposed to place the best dogs first are they not
what is the point of breeding to perfection and stopping that line then breeding from mediocre lines
all breeders should strive for perfection even in canaries :dog: :pig: :cat: :chook: :cow: :goat: :horse: :sheep: :&> :farmer:
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Our vets advised me to let ours have their first season, as they wouldn't be fully grown otherwise. They said specifically the vulva area and in immature, prematurely spayed animals, there was sometimes a involuted
crease which collected urine and became sore
The view about dogs was let them get to at least 9 months but do them before 18 months otherwise the sometimes antisocial behavioural characteristics of a mature adult males (dogs that is ;)) are starting to be inbuilt and reducing testosterone then wouldn't change anything.
Our vets have been around the block a few times - I think they're good news :) and are training their youngest partners in similarly sane ways :)
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My vets change their rates due to the size of dog i.e after 15kg its more. It cost me about £160 to get one of my Irish Terriers spayed a couple of years ago - she was just under 15kg
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maybe or obviously in the dog world things are different
the dog shows are supposed to place the best dogs first are they not
what is the point of breeding to perfection and stopping that line then breeding from mediocre lines
all breeders should strive for perfection even in canaries :dog: :pig: :cat: :chook: :cow: :goat: :horse: :sheep: :&> :farmer:
I don't think you quite understand, Robert. Dog showing is not just for breeders, it is a hobby for an awful lot of people who will never breed. It is not the same as showing an animal that will taste good.
Yes, we Judges are supposed to Judge to the Breed Standard, and generally speaking, on the whole the best dogs do win, but as I said above they may not ever be bred from. Also, although I have trained in France (I own a French Breed), and passed the Canine Judging Diploma, and our Breed Seminar exam, all three with Distinction, not everyone has. There are certainly more stringent criteria for judging than there were but there are still a lot of judges around that don't know one end of a dog from another, so to speak. Then again a breed standard is a set of words, not pictures, and as such is open to interpretation. What I might see as a good Brittany, someone else might not like it's head, or tailset, or length of loin, or slope of pastern, or slope of croup - the sum of the parts is what I look for, not an excelling in one thing, although I do like heads to be in the correct proportion, the specific movement of our breed to be correct, oh, and nice bums ;)
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Our vets advised me to let ours have their first season, as they wouldn't be fully grown otherwise. They said specifically the vulva area and in immature, prematurely spayed animals, there was sometimes a involuted
crease which collected urine and became sore Absolutely right!
The view about dogs was let them get to at least 9 months but do them before 18 months otherwise the sometimes antisocial behavioural characteristics of a mature adult males (dogs that is ;)) are starting to be inbuilt and reducing testosterone then wouldn't change anything.
Our vets have been around the block a few times - I think they're good news :) and are training their youngest partners in similarly sane ways :)
Excellent advice, exactly what I have been saying.
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maybe or obviously in the dog world things are different
the dog shows are supposed to place the best dogs first are they not
what is the point of breeding to perfection and stopping that line then breeding from mediocre lines
all breeders should strive for perfection even in canaries :dog: :pig: :cat: :chook: :cow: :goat: :horse: :sheep: :&> :farmer:
i agree with that, any breeders should aim for the breed standard, then test it out in the ring. its not just about eating them either, we showed a filly and were told by the judge we really should breed with her cos she was so good.
on the otherhand, many rabbit breeders will tell u that the champion rabbits dont always produce champions in their offspring, winners are more likely to come from the siblings' litters of that rabbit.
is there any license required before u can breed reg pups? ie like some breeds of pony stallions need a license? i dont mean kc reg.
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maybe or obviously in the dog world things are different
the dog shows are supposed to place the best dogs first are they not
what is the point of breeding to perfection and stopping that line then breeding from mediocre lines
all breeders should strive for perfection even in canaries :dog: :pig: :cat: :chook: :cow: :goat: :horse: :sheep: :&> :farmer:
i agree with that, any breeders should aim for the breed standard, then test it out in the ring. its not just about eating them either, we showed a filly and were told by the judge we really should breed with her cos she was so good. I would NEVER say that to anyone without looking at the pedigree and advising a lined stud dog
on the otherhand, many rabbit breeders will tell u that the champion rabbits dont always produce champions in their offspring, winners are more likely to come from the siblings' litters of that rabbit. Why?
is there any license required before u can breed reg pups? ie like some breeds of pony stallions need a license? i dont mean kc reg.
Can I just repeat myself! Dog showing is a hobby, it is NOT purely for breeders. I show at a number of Open shows in Scotland - I rarely have orders for puppies up here, my breed doesn't have show ring appeal. I also show at Championship shows in England and Wales and receive enquiries from those. But I am not a big breeder. I only breed occasionally when I want a pup of my own or if I have enough enquiries for a whole litter. The next mating will probably be the last - I only have one bitch I can breed from now and she is 7 now, so can't have a litter registered after next May.
Anyone can breed dogs, and anyone can register them with the Kennel Club, or not as they so wish. There is an Accredited Breeder Scheme which the KC is trying to promote - there are criteria which must be fulfilled. It is aimed at improving dog breeding. In my opinion it is high time there was legislation in place so that dog breeding was controlled.
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any animal or bird that is shown is a hobby but the breeders like to tell that there particular line is from muttly that won crufts in nineteen canteen or whatever now come on annie you are swithering betwean two dogs one has crufts winners on both parentage the other has diddly squat worth the mentioning which one are you going for :dog:
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And there was me thinking I had found another great excuse for being overweight........Having been 'spayed' a few years ago myself!!
Me too ;), what do vets know anyway ;) ;) ;)
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any animal or bird that is shown is a hobby but the breeders like to tell that there particular line is from muttly that won crufts in nineteen canteen or whatever now come on annie you are swithering betwean two dogs one has crufts winners on both parentage the other has diddly squat worth the mentioning which one are you going for :dog:
The one that is line bred to my bitch, obviously - simples. Or don't you do line breeding in pigs? ???
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no line breeding at all to many horror stories from years ago even our dogs are not inter related always try to source from far away :wave: