The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: katog on June 07, 2011, 11:57:17 am
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One of our two 4 month old pigs died this morning, cause unknown.
On Sunday she was fine, Monday morning she was wobbly on her legs, staggering, falling like a drunk.
The vet came - temp normal, lungs wheezy and heart fine, gave her antibiotics as a precaution.
This morning she's dead!
3 weeks ago there was a mouldy batch of sow and weaner nuts but surely that's too long ago to be the cause?
After some deliberation we have decided to have an autopsy and will let you know the results.
Have you ever heard of such a thing? Did you or anyone else you know get some of the mouldy food (Farmgate)?
We now have only one pig should we introduce another now?
I am gutted.
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Firsty, I'm really sorry to hear about your pig and yes, you should try to get another as soon as possible to stop the other getting lonely.
I know someone who also lost weaners recently (a more experienced breeder than myself and someone who really knows their pigs) and the only thing the vet could point to as a possible cause was, you've guessed it, mouldy Farmgate feeds ::)
Since I used Farmgate feeds myself at that point I was really quite concerned and got in touch with them (I also happened to have some mould in the feed and wasn't prepared to feed them it) Their take on it is that the mould is a result of fermentaition because the feed was either bagged while still hot or damp and that it wouldn't affect the pigs in any way. :-\ I wasn't prepared to take that chance so have changed suppliers and haven't had any mould ;)
So it might be the feed - hopefully your pm will be able to tell you. If it is I would strongly suggest that you contact Farmgate directly and give them this undeniable evidence that it is the feed causing problems.
The other sudden death disease that springs to mind (particularly if you also have sheep or your pigs are on land recently occupied by sheep) is clostridium http://v2.mlc.org.uk/pigs/technical/index.html/?i=1050509214&action=view&s=Pigs%7CTechnical%20advice%7CAdvice%20to%20the%20farmer (http://v2.mlc.org.uk/pigs/technical/index.html/?i=1050509214&action=view&s=Pigs%7CTechnical%20advice%7CAdvice%20to%20the%20farmer) but the good news is you can vaccinate against it (using lambivac) to prevent the same thing happening in the future.
Will be interesting to hear the results of your pm though - keep us posted.
Karen :wave:
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did the carcase have purple bloches on it
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So sorry to hear that Katog!
I lost a pig last year, who had very similar symptoms albeit lasted a few days more after seeing the vet. He said a sort of meningitis (which is why these lose their balance). not necessarily due to feed, although that can be the case, more likely just on straw or in the ground.
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Sorry about your loss. Hope you find out the cause. Not that it will bring your pig back, but finding out what it was, means you can take steps for it not to happen again, if thats possible of course.
I have used farmgate hen feed, and pig feed, and have not had a problem, although recently it has been a different brand he had in stock (sounds like I should say thank goodness it was!)
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Thanks for all the kind words folks, Robert - her underside was a bit blotchy but I assumed that was from her blood settling there, will let you know what the results are if any.
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there was a post on this forum about what done your pig in it was either HH or oaklands that posted info about it cant remember what it is called it goes blotchy shortly after death :farmer:
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Oh thats a shame Katog!
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Thanks, maybe we will get 2 weaners, but will wait for the pm results ( do you have any?).
In the meantime I am paranoid about the one that's left.... I can't remember from last time - is it normal for some foam / froth around the mouth?
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Here is an interim post mortem report. There are a few incidental findings such as mild worm damage but the main finding so far is that there was fluid in both the chest and abdomen. Further tests are ongoing .
I had been unpleasantly surprised to find the pigs had not been wormed before we got them, I think it should be done at weaning don't you?
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The problem with toxins such as botulism is they are very hard to detect in a dead animal, so often the pm just shows signs rather than causes. If you still have some of the mouldy feed you could get it analysed. This happened to us, and our vet was 95% sure the cause was mouldy feed. We have voted with our wallets and changed feed suppliers.
Buy another pig now to keep your survivor happy. Yes, some foaming at the mouth is not unusual.
We worm all our weaners with Ivomec before we sell them: if you're buying in weaners it's worth checking if they've been wormed and what with, also if they've been vaccinated against erysepilas or not
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The results of the autopsy are - the pig died of acute mycotoxin (fungal) toxicity most likely a Fumonisin (fusarium monif???? mainly found in corn) produced by fungus in feed.
(To test the food for the fusarium would cost around £100.)
I asked if it could be from feed 3 weeks prior - yes
Is it possible for 2 pigs to eat the same stuff and 1 die and the other ok - yes
Is there any treatment if this one shows signs - no
Also present some worm damage in liver - would be ok to eat.
Looking at other threads it appears very dificult to avoid buying Farmgate or other feed so I supose we have to hope this was a one off problem. There's no alternative to Farmgate near us here.
Oh dear - the way I see it this pig could drop dead anytime - or not. So her sister arrives on Sunday hopefully the introduction will go smoothly, we can't give them seperate areas unfortunately.
Thanks for all your interest and I hope this doesn't happen to any of your pigs.
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Katog
Whereabouts are you in the UK then maybe someone can suggest an alternative feed to farmgate.
I would send a copy of the PM findings to Farmgate techy boys, its not in their interest to have folks put off buying their food and you might get some freebies from them. Their contact details are on their website.
Awful thing to happen.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
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Thanks Mandy
We're in Cowal, Argyll. Reid and Robertson in Balloch are our nearest outlet.
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Katog,
I would do as Mandy (Fowgill Farm) suggests and contact Farmgate. They'll need the batch number of the suspect feed, and a sample if you've any left. If you want you can mention our case (contact me for our details if you want to): I emailed them, got a sympathetic email back, gave them batch number and have heard nothing since.
You would think it's in their interest to do something to prevent any more bad publicity.
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katog I am so sorry you lost your pig but thank you so much for sharing all that information.
I was buying Farmgate and was very happy with them but then my supplier suddenly switched to another brand without explanation. I think I can guess why, now. And I will be sticking with that supplier for my pig and dairy feed; they've bought themselves a lot of loyalty by protecting me from the heartache you have experienced.
Best of luck with remaining pig and new one arriving this weekend.
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with both cases a lawyers letter or just proceed to the small claims court with tiva diva i think you would have more clout with your profession and background it is a 50/50 chance anyway both have suffered losses
a long time ago SAI supplied feed to a farmer (pig) and his herd was wiped out that one went to court because the farmer did not pay his feed bills(there is a name in my head but not 100% sure so wont mention)
we all have to be carefull with feed and storing and if anything is suspect DONT FEED :farmer:
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I would DEFINATELY take it further with Farmgate, when I spoke to them they were of the opionion that the feed being mouldy was no big deal and not harmfull ::) >:(
Your post mortem shows that there is a problem and it IS harmfull - please send them the results (by recorded delivery), so they have proof and have to do something about it. You may not get your costs back for the pig or pm, but they couldn't deny knowing about it in future cases and might feel the need to give you some compensation. What about Harbro ? They might deliver to your area ? You could split a tonne or half tonne with someone close ? It's definately worth getting in touch with them ;)
Karen x
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east coast vinners deliver to ayrshire and dumbarton you can get them to drop of at other customers and collect
so far we have not had a problem and feed is just made that week so stores well the other big if is your storage :farmer:
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Gibb of Galston deliver 2-3 tonnes to us every month in 25kg bags. We're in Strathblane and not far from Reid & Robertson (we use them sometimes if we're stuck!) - you're more than welcome to buy some of our bags from us anytime.
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The new pig arrived without too much trouble and they are now friends.
Thanks for the info on alternative feed.
Pebbles - did you get my pm?
I will contact Farmgate when I have the bills for vet and autopsy in front of me.
Tiva diva - What happened to you? I can't find previous posts.
Do you all feel we SHOULD stop using Farmgate? It was a bad batch yes, but this is the first problem we've had in 3 years.
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All the feed suppliers near us, and even further away, seem to use Farmgate pig feed, and their poultry feed too. I have never had a problem (so far).
Re the mouldy feed - how can it be proved it was mouldy when it left the bagging plant?? I know two of our suppliers who store their bags in a farm building and quite often the bags are damp .....so thats not Farmgate's fault, but the supplier.......not defending Farmgate, but surely they will try and say it was ok when it left their place?
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Hi Roxy
When it (finding mouldy feed) first happened I emailed and called the shop and Farmgate. The shop looked at their bags and the whole load was blue and furry, Farmgate said they were sorry gave us some 50p off vouchers and said an employee had bagged them before they were ready. It was definately their error not the shop or our storage. That said it was one error and we've had no problems before and am not convinced it's necessary to change.
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OMG! That is simply not good enough!!! (IMO)
This stuff killed your pig and they gave you 50p off vouchers? I would be going beserk at them!
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When they gave me the vouchers the pigs were still fine, it was 3 weeks later the pig died. I will approach them as soon as I have the bills from vet and autopsy.
I assume it was the feed but could never prove 100%
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Much the same thing happened to us: but the first 6 bags of the batch weren't visibly mouldy when we opened them and fed it to our weaners. The bags were warm to the touch (but it was a hot day - remember April?) and the feed had a funny, coconutty smell, but it wasn't until we went to open the next bags that we saw the whole lot was hot, blue and furry. (We open about 6 bags of feed at a time & store it in a bin: store the rest of the feed in a big rat-proof storage cupboard in the barn)
Our feed merchants said they'd had about 2-3 tons of the stuff that was the same.
2 of our 6 weaners died - about a week after eating it. None of the other 14 that we had sold a week before we got that batch of feed had any health problems: go figure!
Our vet said he was 95% sure the feed was the problem, but the pm showed nothing, no other cause of death found but mycotoxins can be very difficult to detect. The feed had gone back to Farmgate so I couldn't get it analysed.
Interestingly our pigs seem to be growing better on Carrs Billington too. I like D&H but can't afford to use it.
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As to wether we should all stop using Farmgate: I think that's an individual choice. We had never had any problems before this either. There are 2 issues: one is the feed itself and what happened to Farmgate could happen to any manufacturer. Our pigs are doing better on Carrs Billington than they did on Farmgate, we can get it easily and are only paying a little more - which may be offset by the faster growth.
The other issue is the attitude of Farmgate. If they'd apologised and offered compensation we might not have switched feed (though actually we probably would anyway). As it is they seem to be distancing themselves from the whole episode - another reason to vote with our wallets. Look at it this way - if we DID all switch feed manufacturers they might be a bit less arrogant! But like I said, I think it's down to how you feel personally.
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2 of our 6 weaners died - about a week after eating it. None of the other 14 that we had sold a week before we got that batch of feed had any health problems: go figure!
Interestingly our pigs seem to be growing better on Carrs Billington too. I like D&H but can't afford to use it.
I got 2 of Tiva Diva's pigs - and can vouch that they have been fine.
AND having seen the ones that have been getting Carrs Billington feed, I have to say that they do look great on it ! They are better looking than mine which have been on the Harbro stuff :-\
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The penny has just dropped and I have realised who you are Tiva Diva.
How's the new OSB boar doing?
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If you contact your local trading standards they enforce the feed regs and it is definately illegal to sell mouldy feed. Give them a ring and see what they say, they should investigate the whole issue and inspect the mill to see why this happened in the first place. It should not have been bagged warm.
So sorry to hear about your pig.
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i would bloody sue them and kick up hell.
sorry for ur loss
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Farmgate were sympathetic and professional in their communications with me, they have given me £200 which covers the vet, autopsy and new pig. I am satisfied with this result.
Thanks for all of your comments. The other pig is still alive and well and getting bigger and her friend is also well.
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I should think so too! From a PR point of view it would be a disaster if they had done less. Really glad for you and your new piggy! :pig:
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Farmgate were sympathetic and professional in their communications with me, they have given me £200 which covers the vet, autopsy and new pig. I am satisfied with this result.
Thanks for all of your comments. The other pig is still alive and well and getting bigger and her friend is also well.
And good on them for doing this, it should have been so given the curcumstances. ;D
And good Luck with your new pig. :wave:
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trust me if you sue them YOU HAVE TO PROVE EVERYTHING and i mean prove that the bag was damp when you purchased it and it killed your pig, if you can prove it (UNLIKELY) it was damp at purchase the next question is THEN WHY DID YOU FEED IT.... forget sueing it will go on for years and even small claims will cost you cash. Been there , done it and won £7500.another time i lost cost me £400. i happy with that balance. dont even think about a solicitor.
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I feed farmgate sow and weaner to mine. had 1 mouldy bag in 18 months.. Thank god i chucked it out and didn't give any to them. Mind I wonder if o should change now.
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Surely any reasonable person wouldn't feed mouldy food? Playing devil's advocate here, if I were the case for the prosecution, I would suggest negligence on the part of the purchaser/pig keeper as a mitigating factor. No-one is forced to feed bad food - and mouldy food isn't difficult to spot. Better to reach a settlement with the supplier before going through the courts and running up huge barristers' bills.
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Tudful Tamworths, the bags we opened on arrival and fed to the pigs showed no sign of mould, it was on opening the second and third bags the mould had grown and spread and was obvious and no, we did not give it to the pigs - they got porridge and fruit and veg till we got back to the shop for more. Then the same thing happened again so twice they ate a bag of feed with spores. I assure you I would not have given it to the pigs if I had seen mould.
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you wouldnt get huge bills at a small claims court but there are fees, a few hundred quid, but like i said you have to prove everything as you are making the claim. so when people advise you to sue willy nilly they dont know the time, expert opinions (vets)you have to pay for, court costs fees etc etc for basicly a £100 pig.... lifes to short, good they coughed up £200. but i bet that was WITHOUT PREDUJICE. which means they admit nothing for now or any future claims.
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that is the great thing about a public open forum we can all give input what works for one would possibly not work for others
it is best to avoid court action if at all possible
it is cheaper and easier to defend an action than raise an action
when you go to court you enter with a 50%chance of winning or losing
the sheriff you are sitting in front of is only human and can make errors of judgment as we all can
you could have the best case in the world and a wrongly worded document or citation could render that case useless
as harry has pointed out it can be swings and roundabouts (win some lose some) not so bad if it is two individuals that are not legally represented but if you lose and the other side has legal representation be prepared to lose your shirt we sued someone for £1750 our costs were approx£5000 all paid up front we won and we reckon the other sides total bill was over £12000
as i said before better to avoid court action but some times you just have to persue/defend and the legal profession can get it wrong
anyway the feed (all feed)is stored in plastic bags if you put mildly moist cloths in a plastic bag and leave they go mouldy our feeding(east coast vinners)comes in plastic bags it is then decanted into wheelie bins and yes some times it is still warm when delivered as ours is always fresh made to date we have never had a problem with this supplier or products and a lot of pig keepers use them
congratulations on getting a payment from them even if it is without prejudice :farmer:
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and even if you win you dont neccasarly get your money......especally from individuals but also companys, if they havent got it you wont get it.......... EVER. my feed comes in paper bags, possibly better????
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Harry, I think you're right about the paper bags. Certainly does allow the feed to "breathe" more easily. Unfortunately, it's just not practical for me because the weather is so unpredictable here.
In fairness to BOCM/Farmgate, I've been getting bagged feed from them in bulk for three years now, and have never had a problem. I DID have about a half a dozen bags of mouldy feed a couple of years ago but that was from a local feed merchant. Aside from the bagging when warm issue, I think storage can also count for a lot.
There are so many variables here and, as you quite rightly point out, liability is an extremely difficult thing to prove. At which stage of the process did the feed go off?
As you say, getting into a legal battle can be an expensive process. Personally, I'd be happy with compensation out of court.