The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Collie26 on May 24, 2011, 07:37:15 pm
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Hi stumbled across this forum and find it great.
I have a border collie bitch 3 and a half years old due to whelp on the 10th june, we havent had her scanned, as just waiting to see if she has pups she was mated and everything went according to plan.
Is there any tell tale signs without taking her to get scanned to tell if she's in pup?
Thanks for any replies in advance
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bigger tummy developing teats(bagging up) doganjo is the resident dog expert :dog:
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Thanks
Her teats are developing, her belly is starting to grow but slowly .
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I always scan my bitches - £20 to our local sheep scanner is well worth it. Archie is 100% accurate, and I then know exactly how many pups to expect and if they don't all arrive I know the vet may be needed.
Approximately 24 hours before whepling her temperature will drop by one degree. The average temperature of a healthy dog is 101 °F or 38 °C, however, the normal temperature of a healthy dog may range from 99 °F to 102.5 °F (37.2 °C–39.2 °C), so check it a few times for teh next week to get an average for her. I use a digital thermometer - faster and accurate.
She is likely to not eat a few hours before, and she will start to nest, and start panting. If she starts to push, it can go on for about an hour before any signs of a puppy but once it gets to an hour phone your vet for advice (and a little moral support)
Have you got a proper whelping box and all the necessary equipment? You'll get a list on here http://www.phi-vestavia.com/whelplist.htm (http://www.phi-vestavia.com/whelplist.htm)
And don't think you won't need this stuff - you JUST might so it's better to have it then not, and be able to save one or more pups.
Lastly - Alert your vet now, you might not need him/her but you might - like I did last time. Saw dark red gunge appearing from vulva, guessed it was a detached placents. Called my vet, took her straight to the surgery and they were all already prepared for a Caesar and puppy reviving - an incubator already warmed up, and a box (with surgical gloves filled with hot water) ready to pop them into when resussed.
You might be lucky and not need all of this but better to be prepared.
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She's comming up 6 weeks so another 3 to go!!
Whelping boxes would and exceptionally very large plastic dog bed surfice? Ive delivered lambs, piglets and claves before does this help?
The vet doesnt know yet should be inform them or are they going to charge ££££££££ like they always seem to do.(rant over) an i want to be one!!!
I wanted to scan her but didnt want to pay nearly £100 from vets to get scanned. Our local sheep scanner isnt the friendliest ie ive never heard the language that came out of his mouth :o :o
Thanks for advice, you'll probably hearing more of me with questions.
:dog: :goat: :horse: :pig: :chook: :sheep: :farmer:
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The reason for a whelping box with roll bars is that first time mums can roll over and squash pups and they can get out of the way if there are bars. Sandy had a particularly good whelping box last time round, she may be able to tell you where she got it if she sees this thread, or post a photo so you can see what I mean.
Your expreience delivering other animals will stand you in very good stead and you will, I am sure, recognise the signs when she is about to whelp.
Sounds like your present vet is a money grabbing machine, so stay clear and try to find another one. ::) Just give them a call and say when your bitch is due, and that you may call if you need assistance.
I think you'll manage fine, Sandy did first time round with just a little help from me, and was an old hand next time ;), so feel free to ask any questions you want. The only stupid question is teh one that wasn't asked! ;D
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I know with pigs ect that they 'bag up' and a few days before or even hours before then the teats should swell large and milk to be produced. Is this the same with dogs??
Should she look really pregnant?? Like with women you can really see the baby but with her its a bit uncertain. Also you can tell with pigs easy.
Ive read that you should feed her now on puppy food for extra protein is this correct??
Thanks again
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No, dogs tend to get their milk down as they are whelping, so that isn't really an indication - some of them will 'bag up' early so you might be one of the advanced warning lucky ones. ;D If this is her first litter there are two reasons she may not show yet 1) dogs hide them up under their ribs 2) she may not have many. When she is lying down on her side resting watch closely for any movement - they should be moving around a bit. Or you might be able to feel them. Stand her up, stand in front of her, and gently push her side over with one hand and put the flat of your other hand at teh other side. You should feel bumps. In the early stages of pregnancy you can tell if they are in whelp by laying them down on their backs and gently running a finger between two teats - you should feel 'tramlines' These are the milk threads starting to swell. You should see a difference in her demeanour over the last 3 to 4 weeks, she may become more 'clingy' and want to be with you more than usual. She may also be more snappy with other bitches. Usually it's in the last couple of weeks they are more obviously pregnant.
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Thanks for the advise its really helpful.
Come to think about it she was a bit snappy with a bitch we saw the other day. However not with my grandads dog who is on holiday with us, but this could be due to the fact that when my bitch was a pup she stayed with us because my grandad had a blood clot in his leg.
I shall do the feeling thing and when should 'the milk tramlines' start to show?
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Sorry, I wasn't clear - the tramlines are in the ealry stages of pregnancy - they won't be detectable now, they'll have softened.
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Thats good because i cant find them.
There is loose skin around her belly but tight muscles?? Is this right???
She is really soppy (to be honest shes being a pain being so soft) shes clinging to her favourite human my mam)
should she be getting any different food ive read she should be on puppy food because it has more protein in ect??
Also what about excersise at the moment she knows her limits normally she'll chase the quad all day but now she stops after 5 mins??
Thanks again your a real help
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Our vet only charges £18 to scan a dog. It may be worth enquiring so you can be prepared!
Good luck
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Our vets are very good just expensive:
I will inform then asap
thanks
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Don't let her chase around after teh quads. let her take the exercise she needs but watch she doesn't over exercise. Don't let her get bumped by anything(other dogs, other animals, vehicles) - that was what caused my bitch to start aborting, and prompt action saved all but one puppy. Yes, you can put her on puppy food now, and when her pups start to wean it won't matter if she eats what they leave.
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Dont worry we stop her! And yeah she just goes for a little walk for about half an hour to an hour of gentle strolling.
As her first litter is there more likely to be problems??
Also will she have less pups because its her first litter?? :dog:
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I don't think there is any more likelihood of problems or of smaller litters in first whelpings. But if you are well prepared before by reading up on signs you shlould be fine. When she starts whelping you can come on here if you are worried and I can try to help. Jackie is abreeder too, she might see this thread, I'll look out for her on Facebook and alert her.
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Annie has covered this subject very very well, the only proviso's I would add is to keep the whelping room very quiet and darken it down if you can or put a blanket over the top of the whelping box. Bitches in the wild would crawl somewhere very small and very dark and private so try to simulate that.
Try not to interfere with the whelping process unless the bitch is in trouble or a puppy is stuck. Use cooking oil and clean fingers to guide a puppy out if needed, do not pull a puppy out just guide it out when the bitch contracts. The bitches birth canal is straight up towards her tail from her vulva (this sort of shape'?') so its a downward steady pull. If you get this wrong the bitch will squeal.
Some bitches vomit when in early labour too and love to wander around the garden, make sure you keep her on a lead or you may be delivering a pup under a bush!!!!
The best thing that you can do is to sit on the floor at the side of the box and just watch. Stay calm because the bitch will feel it if you are stressed and become stressed herself.
As the pups are born cut the cord with a blunt pair of scissors (sharp scissors allow for bleeding) then pass it straight back to mum to clean and then put the pup to a teat. The puppy sucking will encourage more contractions for the next pup.
The bitch will eat the afterbirths but only allow 3 at the most or she will get scours the next day.
As each pup is born check for deformities, little finger check the roof of its mouth for cleft pallet, make sure tail and anus is there. check legs etc.
If more than 2 hours go by in between pups and you know theres more to come then there is a problem and get her to the vet. After the bitch starts to whelp its easier to feel the pups so you will know if she has more tucked up in there.
Any birth discharge shouldnt smell nasty it should smell sort of like rusty nails (iron) if it smell snasty again you have problems, maybe a dead pup.
Ok now the the awful things; if a pup is deformed dont try to revive it, its not fair on the pup and mum may reject it anyway.
To revive a pup; hold it in your hand under its tummy with your first 2 fingers either side of its head and swing your whole arm like a pendulum, wide deep swings. Do this 3 times then check for breathing, then if needed put the pups muzzle into your mouth and breath out steadily. If still not breathing lay pup on its back and tap its chest quite hard and fast. Put some brandy on its tongue and encourage it to go down its throat.
By now its muzzle and tongue will be blue. Repeat breathing and tapping for 5 mins.
If no response the pup has gone and you did your best.
The next day you can weight each pup and start keeping notes about their individual progress.
Good luck and most whelpings go just fine :)
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Oh I didnt say but if the cord bleeds use iodine or styptic pencil or failing anything else cigarette ash works, if it continues to bleed for more than 5 or 6 mins you need a vet pronto!
Allow the bitch to dig all she wants as its a pain relief for her, you can if needed give her half a plain 500mg paracetamol.
If the bitch starts to shiver and shake within 24 hours of the birth you need a calcium injection so alert your vet to come out. On no account take the bitch or pups to the vets at all.
I hope this helps :)
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Thanks jackie and annie its been a big help.
Will the umbilibal cord not just snap like with livestock??
And i will keep you informed on progress and put some pics up later!
:farmer:
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No it doesnt snap, its very tough but please dont let the bitch chew it off as that way the pups can get umbilical hernias :)
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Thanks
we are going to let her whelp in the kitchen is this ok??? Theres only one other dog a lazy cavalier :D the house is quiet even with 5 of us do you think its ok her whelping here??
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Thanks
we are going to let her whelp in the kitchen is this ok??? Theres only one other dog a lazy cavalier :D the house is quiet even with 5 of us do you think its ok her whelping here??
If you have nowhere else and it is a very quiet corner and perhaps something to partition it off then fine - as Jackie says maybe a blanket or towel over the area. Don't let the other dog ANYWHERE near her - bitches have been known to kill and eat pups even with their bestest dog friend there. I'd keep it out of the kitchen from when she starts to whelp till the pups are at least a couple of days old. I use plastic clips on the cords - the kind you use for resealing bags. Use newspapers in her bedd when she starts to nest - easier to get rid of and she won't harm herself if she ingests any. Also get her used to being in that bed now, with the partitions in place.
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Thats what weve done and he wont mind spending a few nights on the sofa ;D ;D ;D
:farmer:
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My vet only charged under £20 for the scan but would not commit to how many pups were there. I had everything organised and all my equipment close to hand. Took temperature as described by Annie so new she was due next day. She started in labour on Easter Sunday but after two out of hours trips to the vet it was apparent that there was a problem. Emergency caesarian revealed one pup lying across the entrance to the birth canal. 5 healthy pups delivered and mum and pups doing fine, Now 4 weeks old. Cost of emergency caesarian on Easter Sunday £853. Ouch!!!
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Just a question but i have been told that even if the bitch is insured then the cost of a cesarian is not covered??
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Any pet insurance I have had was with exclusions on any treatment or procedure connected with breeding.
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What type dog have you got??
Same with our insurance.
We are going to partition part of the kitchen corner off for her to whelp in.
How do i put pic up??
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Just a question but i have been told that even if the bitch is insured then the cost of a cesarian is not covered??
Check your insurance -it might be. Hopefully you won't need it.
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What type dog have you got??
Same with our insurance.
We are going to partition part of the kitchen corner off for her to whelp in.
How do i put pic up??
When you click reply there is a link called additional options at teh bottom left, click on that and you get a box with the word choose alongside - click on choose and it opens your picture folder - make sure you have reduced the size of the photo to under 521kb (I save them with a different name on my desktop so they are easier to find, and that keeps the original size on my pc). Then click post
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I'm so excited! It's more exciting than giving birth yourself and a damned sight less painful.
What's the bitch called? And who's the daddy?
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Dad is local good working collie. Hes called bob
Bitch is semi working dog, on our smallholding. Called lilly
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Hi, only just got to read this, I miss having pups, just love looking after them. I found I needed piles of newspapers, rubbish bags, lots of cut up old towles for all sorts of uses, maybe some paper towel as well, course the blunt sissors etc, I did have a clamp but must have thrown it out, that was brilliant to put on the cord until it was time to cut it, they ARE tough to cut, I hate doing it. The first time my Labrador had pups she was frightened but the last time she was great, I have to keep very quiet and very calm otherwise she panicks (like any mum). I also took her into our back yard and told her to do a wee in between pups, they were placed on a heat pad......I slept next to our pups from the start until about 3 weeks old and I bought a baby intercom and heard every noise!!!! I was glad to get back in my bedroom but still kept a check on them re the intercom....I did this as our bitch did roll onto one and one died as well on the first litter, I did not want this to happen again. Smaller dogs are not so bad at laying on pups as Labs, she also had 11 on her first litter and 9 this time...
I kept a bucket of warm water next to me to wrinse my hands in as there is green liquid that comes out and stains your hands sort of black. Good luck and hope to see some photos...remember, they usualy do it fine themselves, especialy if they are not disturbed and its peacful!!!!!
Oh yes, my whelping box was brilliant and not too expensive, made from marine ply and easy to put up take down and clean. One box had a rounded shelf around and joined onto another box with a little opening that could be closed off...The key was they had plenty of room and were nice and safe!!! THe chap is not making them at the mo!! I also had a fixed floor in mine as I did not want to trap little feet under it as it was very heavy!
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Im excited shes due in 11 days!! We've just finishing getting ready for the whelp.
I think we'll all take turns watching and helping so should be ok i'll post pics asap :)
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I'm sure you'll be fine. Just stay calm as Sandy says, don't panic but watch out for the signs of anything going wrong. Dark discharge before the due date should be checekd by your vet straight away, otherwise just watch out for the first contractions and don't let her strain too long. Good luck.
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I wish we had a HUGE place that I could have hundreds of dogs as I just love theo whole process of pups, great if you have the wright stuff and setting!! We are taking orders for our next litter and not even had the dog mated yet!!!!!!!!!
Soooooooooooo look forward to some photos and you will be fine..I played some nice music too and dimmed the lights!!
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Have just read this thread and would offer the services of my five year old grand-daughter to anyone in doubt. Feeling gently unerneath a mini long a while ago,she announced. "Yes, Granny, I think she's pregnant, her nibbles are quite big" The bitch whelped two lovely bitch puppies five weeks later!
So, that's the answer, feel her "nibbles" ;)
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what breed was she and how big??
Yes her nipples are rather large so hopefully week on friday we'll have a litter of pups !!!
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Another question do in-pup bitches become reserved and quiet sometimes reluctant to go far from home(even just when checking on stock)!?
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what breed was she and how big??
Yes her nipples are rather large so hopefully week on friday we'll have a litter of pups !!!
She is a miature long-haired daschund, and weighs about 12 pounds.
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Is that the average litter size?? Just wondering as shes so small then she wont have many pups my collie is about 20 ish kilos.
When was her last litter have you still got the pups???
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Yes, that is the average litter size. The pups are 6 weeks old now and are both staying ::)
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Litter size usualy corresponds with the breed size, however if you have mixed breeds of a small and a big dog, you cannot tell. Our Lab had 11 pups on her first litter and 9 on her second. Large litters are a worry as the pups need to be monitered and sometimes had fed to help mum out..won't be long ;)
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Litter size depends on many factors, breed size being just one - the age of the bitch when she has her first litter has an impact. When a bitch is 4 years or older when she has her first litter, her litters will be smaller than a younger dog. With subsequent litters there is an overall decrease in litter size after 5 years of age in the majority of breeds. The first litter for any bitch is likely to be smaller. Litter size will increase with each litter generally through the third, sometimes the fourth litter. Then the number of pups decreases steadily.
Another factor is her breed, as Sandy rightly says. Smaller breeds tend to have smaller litters, and vice versa. How many eggs the bitch releases in her season is another factor. In Brittanys and German Wirehairs (two of my own breeds) litter size can be from 1 to 14 - and that bears no relation to the breed size. In Cockers and Springers, my other breeds, litter size can vary form 1 to 9.
In a recent AKC Survey (85000 litters of Labradors) there were between 5 and 10 pups and the average was 7, Cockers averaged 5, range 3 to 7 in 35000 litters, Chihuahuas 55000 litters gave numbers of 2 to 6, average 4
So as I said before first timers can disguise their pregnancy so without being scanned it is anyone's guess how many she will have. ::)
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We have a smallish collie so would expect around 4ish pups.
Yes not long now shes very very quiet not even wanting to be in her front seat of our jeep(which we use on the smallholding) is this normal.
I cant wait, but we'll just have to wait and see on litter size.
Will keep you posted
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Do you have an exact date? She may start in labour up to a few days early, so be prepared. Pups born more than 6 days early are rarely viable. Just let her take wahtever exercise she wants, but don't let her out of your sight in the last week or you may find yourself digging up a barn to get to her and the pups. ;) ;D
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Yes shes due on the 10th June so not long.
Thats what weve been doing keeping a close eye on her.
So just to clarify if shes not showing much she could come up to 6 days early!!?!??
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She could whelp early whether she's showing or not but the majoity of bitches are on time. Mine have all started a day before tehir due date however. Just coincidence I think. Don't let her go more than one day over though without checking with your vet.
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Thanks for that
Its one week to go!!!!!
Shes a little off her food but it may be the weather and the sausages she stole off the BBQ! :D
everything ready hopefully it'll go smoothly, her teats are really large and she becomes quite restless when hot which is not like her. Shes not wanting to go far when around the smallholding just around the house so we leave it at that and a little walk early in the morning or late at night when it isnt too hot.
Keep you posted
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OUr Lab goes off her food durring the late stage, I usualy buy chickens and boil the carcus and rough bits, then take out all the bones, make it into a liquid and soak her puppy food in it and that usualy temps her, although this time she was much worse, I ended up wrapping her puppy food in cheap sliced chicken and hand feed her. Shes back to herself now but it took some time due to her faddy eating......I bought cheap plain fish to boil and some cheap chickens just in case. Not sure if anyone said this yet, but don't pull any pups out, let them come out with the contractions, you can help if she struggles by pushing gently onto her bottom, only gently!!! We are all on tender hooks so keep us posted, she will probaly have them when you are all asleep with no problems at all!!!
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She normally gets whats left off the table and we mix it together with her food and she eats it.
I think there'll be a camp bed in the kitchen all night from thursday! :D
so just let the pups come naturally, got it!
Will try to keep posted during whelp or afterwards on my phone!
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Thats just what I do, I put the camp bed in when she has the pups as she is liable to sit on them otherwise, I doubt a collie would sit on them as they are lighter footed...plenty of time yet!