The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: thecoldplace on April 22, 2011, 10:26:15 am
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Dear All,
Firstly hello from the sunny Staffordshire Moorlands javascript:void(0);
My first forum question on here so I hope it makes sense......
We are hoping to get a couple of goats quite soon, possibly from an auction on Monday.
We have a 1 acre paddock which had a lot of docks in it, which I have sprayed 6 days ago with 'Pastor'.
Do goats eat docks is the first question.
The second is as the docks are now withering and dying off, if the answer to the first question is yes, will they still try to eat the poisoned docks in the sward?
The safety data on the spray advises 7 days before grazing, so on Monday we would be at 9 days, but I dont' want to put any prospective animals at risk.
Thanks
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First......NEVER BUY FROM AUCTION, ever ever !!!!!!! There is no guarantee of health status whatsoever. It is a recipe for heartbreak & disaster.
Please think twice about it.....I am a very experienced goat keeper/breeder and I cant tell you how many times I have heard of real heartbreak results of buying at auction.
Yes the goats will eat the poisonned docks ... you cannot now put goats on that land for at least 6 months, never mind what it says on the label...goats are very susceptible to poisons of any sort.
The goats would have killed the docks for you.!!!!!
If you want goats, buy from a reputable breeder who give you all the relevant health certificates that relate directly to that animal. There are various people on this forum who will support my statements.
Don't make a horrendous mistake.
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Please consider buying from a breeder thecoldplace. I bought not from a breeder but from a lovely lady, sadly much as she clearly loved the goats she had never had them vaccinated, one died within a week of arriving here - heartbreak probably sums upwhat my children and i went though, not to mention this goats mum who stood over him crying :'(
its really not worth it. go to an experienced breeder who will be happy to show you all the paperwork and vet papers etc. I'd suggest talking to a different breeder if you can so you know what to ask and look for on visiting any perspective goats.
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The docks would have been loved by the goats, when they get into my garden area >:( the first thing they go for is docks. As said dont put goats on there now , do some research into goat keepers in your area in the meantime and dont go to auction. I know they are sad to see there but they are there for the meat buyers mainly or they were in the West Yorks Auctions I went to. Saying that I was given mine by an old bloke who had too many but we dont have many goats up here so did not have a choice and they are the best pair ever.All I need now is to find a billy they are not related to!!!!!!!
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All these don'ts - sorry here's another one - don't use Pastor, its really horrible stuff and I wouldn't use it anywhere at any time - its terrible for all wildlife never mind animals you are buying in.
We have had some good results from auctions, there are some genuine people out there who have maybe advertised and haven't found a buyer locally and have no other option but to take to market.
We don't vaccinate our goats because they have never been in kid - I asked our vet (he is very well versed in goats) about getting them vaccinated for anything and he said unless they were being 'intensively' bred then they should be left alone, so don't worry about that, just try and get nice healthy stock ...and make sure they're friendly, you'll find that helps enormously.
Goats just don't eat everything by the way, they can be fussy little sods! Good luck! :goat:
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Sorry don't have docks,I've got goats ;)
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by the way ...
Welcome to TAS! :wave:
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Thanks for the replies so far, your advice and experience is much appreciated.
The spray has now been applied so no going back, but interesting to read that goats would still go for treated and therefore withered and dying docks! Will probably now look to hold off for a while rather than jumping in at auction, especially for animal health reasons.
Thanks for the welcome, javascript:void(0); will probably be around here quite a bit.......
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We don't vaccinate our goats because they have never been in kid - I asked our vet (he is very well versed in goats) about getting them vaccinated for anything and he said unless they were being 'intensively' bred then they should be left alone, so don't worry about that, just try and get nice healthy stock ...and make sure they're friendly, you'll find that helps enormously.
So, your goat's aren't even protected against Tetanus?
Beth
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Hi Beth, no they are not - our vet (also Ankes) said it was not necessry in our case at least - we are not milking or breeding - I asked him specifically about the tetnus one as that is the one which is mentioned on most websites you look at (quite often american websites), but he thought it unnecessary.
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I only ask goosepimple, because I did actually have a kid that got tetanus. It had been given to me by a family friend, who at that time did not vaccinate her goats. She was only about a month old, and I was quite young at the time- it was a very unpleasant experience, and we did of course lose the kid. Maybe your adults have already build up a resistance to it.
Beth
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I have to say, I will continue to vaccinate mine with HeptavacP. I've lost 2 goats within 6 months - both to illnesses that could have been prevented. Avocet was probably pneumonia, it was awful. My 4 had never even been wormed when I bought them and in my ignorance I didn't realise there could be a problem. There had been sheep on this land prior to us living here and in our first year of moving to the house so we may have even had cocxy, its just not worth it.
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Whilst I don't believe in administering anything unnecessary to any animal, Heptavac P has all the essential things for goats. It really is not worth the risk.
If your Vet does think Tetanus protection is necessary for goats, I seriously question whether he/she has any goat knowledge at all........ I would be looking for another practice !!!!
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I think that's a bit cheeky actually - he has very good depth of experience in goat knowledge as myself and other TAS users will vouch for and is a goat lover himself - these matters relate to the goats, the circumstances and the owners intentions - I don't think you should be name calling on professionals you don't know.
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No I am not name calling, but Tetanus is a killer and goats can get this from a simple cut around the legs.
John Matthews MRCVS, the hon Vet to BGS, says it is the one thing that all goat keepers should do without thinking about it.
I have kept goats for over 35 years...having over 40 now.. and that is the one thing I would not compromise on.
You will know that goats get into scrapes, get foot rot for a laugh, scratch their udders. All of these things can provide an entry, totally unseen, for Tetanus bacteris which lives in the soil.
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Hmm, you've got me thinking now, I think I'll go back to him and maybe get another professional opinion too, many thanks wytsend. :-\
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It simply isn't worth the risk !!!!!
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I mentioned this to my own vet last night when I took the cockerel in to get his foot sorted. He said that he'd always recommend Heptavac'ing goats and that tetanus is incredibly risky in goats because of the daft things that they do sometimes (like climbing tree's and hill surfing, not to mention the things Wytsend pointed out)
Its is interesting though that a vet in one area might say not to, whilst others say do so. I only wish my 2 goats that have now died had been :(
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Thanks both, I haven't managed to corner him yet but I'll let you know the outcome - this thread's taken a tangent hasn't it!
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It has!! but then if Thecoldplace is new to goats, this could be one of the most useful tangents possible I guess :) I think we all learn a great deal from experience, sadly my first 5 months with goats entailed 2 deaths so now every time I see scour I panic (usually without reason but its just a result from what happened)
I've spoken to Wytsend and another very well known goat breeder in depth now on the phone and in person and the worst part is knowing that my goats deaths could have been prevented by a vaccine. Its a big 'if only'.
Please do let us know goosepimple, its an interesting topic and would be good to hear from another vet too.
Lisa
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I am not so sure it is all that straight forward - vaccinating and no problems and not vaccinating, animals die. Most goat deaths are brought on by some kind of stress factor plus the original cause of infection, so generally healthy and unstressed goats have a much higher chance of surviving. I use Lambivac rather than Heptavac for the goats (and Heptavac for the sheep), thats after I read all the advice from the GVS.
Given the large number of people who keep their goats/sheep/dogs/cats/children unvaccinated and they live a full and long life the evidence is probably not clear cut. Also animals/people survived BEFORE vaccines became available.
I only ever got a tetanus jab when I was nearly 40 years old! (and I had been mucking round in forests/gardens/chemical laboratories etc for a while by then). But am not very good with needles, even though I can readily stick them into my animals, but not people nor have them stuck into me.
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Hmm...thanks Anke. I'm going to go back to Nigel via email and ask him - I thought you would only need tetnus after the gash had occurred (as you would with humans) but I'll ask about the Lambivac thing too. We're going to be selling our 3 goats (pygmy X - look like crossed with alpines - they're not tiny but not full size, very nice looking actually, its just that we've bought some pure registered pygmies now and don't intend finding a billy for the crosses) but if i'm selling then a purchaser would quite rightly want to make sure everything was as it should be. Will post again once Nigel has replied.
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re tetanus.
You have the tetanus vaccine in advance, which protects you by 'priming' your immune system to wipe out any tetanus bacteria that get into you, before they can get going.
If you haven't had the vaccine but get a dodgy cut, you have tetanus anti-toxoid, which is not a vaccine but hopefully 'mops up' any toxin the tetanus bacteria may be releasing into your system, since it's the toxin which causes lockjaw, the intercostal (breathing muscles) to paralyse etc :o
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The other thing is that with goats you might not even see the gash. It could be a tiny scratch hidden by their hair, even a thorn jabbing them in the mouth as they eat a branch that could get the infection in. The kid that I lost- nor us or the vet could even find what the wound had been.
Beth
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thanks jaykay/ballingall, makes me think we should do all animals then?
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Was emailed from the vet regarding injections / tetanus etc .... he said that clostridial diseases which include tetanus do periodically affect goats but that no clos vaccine is licensed for use in goats and immunity is much shorter lasting than in cows and sheep, that the risk of clos disease is low but that something like Lambivac - which is probably the 'lightest' vaccine could be used with 2 doses, 3-6 weeks apart with boosters 6 monthly. Many vaccines contain 7,8 or 10 strains of clos infections many of which are not seen in goats.
As we are going to sell these goats on anyway (they are 2 now and we don't intend doing the goatlings bit) then I think I will leave it to their new owners to figure out what they want to do. They are beautiful looking and very healthy and happy goaties so hopefully they will remain that way until their new owner considers what they think the best way forward is based on the differing threads of advice available! Many thanks all. :)
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no clos vaccine is licensed for use in goats and immunity is much shorter lasting than in cows and sheep, that the risk of clos disease is low but that something like Lambivac - which is probably the 'lightest' vaccine could be used with 2 doses, 3-6 weeks apart with boosters 6 monthly.
that's right, most things aren't licensed for goats - and that's what we do, use the sheep ones but boost more often.