The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: knightquest on March 10, 2011, 12:17:00 am
-
Just got over a very traumatic time with Boris our two year old Leonberger.
We took him for a walk on Sunday morning and after an hour or so, we fed him. He is a proper gannet and he made himself sick. Quick as a flash, he ate it again. Shortly after, he started coughing and wheezing. It didn't stop and he got a bit upset so we rushed him to the vets.
They examined him and couldn't feel anything in his throat or his stomach but he was still coughing and struggling for breath so they knocked him out and x rayed him. They said that nothing could be seen in his throat but there looked like a blockage in his stomach. (I should say that we had informed the vet that we fed raw and bones)
The decision was taken to get him into theatre and pump out his stomach. They were worried about his stomach becoming dilated and him getting torsion. We left for home awaiting a call. We got the call about 3 hours later to say that they couldn't get to his stomach so they would have to operate......we said ok.
They operated and said that they had found bones "the size of a fist" and that he was blocked by these. I should say that he had done two poos just before his meal.
He was to be kept in overnight and collected at 9 on Monday morning.
Nine came and we were told that he should stay in for the day as he was sore. We eventually collected him at 6.45pm. When we got him home, he started coughing and wheezing again OMG! We phoned the vet and she said that he was obviously sore from all the work and he should settle down. Eventually he did.
I slept in the kitchen all night with him and it was the worst night of my life! He was really struggling for long periods and although he settled down occasionally, he always started coughing again.
After two calls to the emergency vet, he eventually made it through to the open surgery at 9am on Tuesday morning.
The head vet came out to the car and looked at him and decided to get him in and put a camera down his windpipe under a light anaesthetic. We left him again and this they did.
They eventually, after 5 attempts, managed to pull out the end of a carrot from just this side of his lung!!! - This was causing the coughing BIG STYLE!
When we finally collected him on Tuesday evening, the improvement was so great, both Di and I cried when we saw him.
Three things have come from this event.
1) Just because we feed raw, the vets automatically think that it is the problem. (The fist sized obstruction turned out to be some turkey neck that I'm confident that I could have passed if I had swallowed it).
2) They did not listen to us, all along we said they he had inhaled something. Sometimes dog owners do know what they are talking about!
3) Had they listened, our dog would not have had to go through 5 hours of surgery and anaesthetic. He would have had an hour of light sedation and a camera. Oh and escaped a bill for £2,300
At the end of it, we are just glad to have him back. He is now recovering really well :)
He was due to go to Crufts today (Thursday) to demonstrate the KC bronze award and he's missed that but we are just glad to have him.
Sorry to go on.....
Ian
-
what an awful experience for you all, keeping everything crossed for you, give him a big kiss and hug from me, :bouquet: :wave:
-
bugger mate .. I dread something like that happening to my dogs ... Glad your big fellow came through ok in the end .
I hope you get a good nights kip now anyway , now that the scary bit is over .
Take care Boris , you bugger you !!!
cheers
Russ
-
poor things (all of you) terrible trauma.....
best of luck and hope recovery is swift. :bouquet:
Mx
-
Glad you're all OK - I'm sure Boris will forget about it long before you do :)
-
Bloody Hell Ian!
Glad Boris is doing ok now ... what a terrible night! :dog:
-
hi ian
glad boris is fine now, its amazing what emotions these monsters can put us through, even when they are well again, you still feel like you are being dragged through a ringer.
reece
-
Oh Ian,
Hope Boris on the mend now - despite the vet adding to his suffering & stress all-round ( not to mention the £'s) :o
I would have thought coughing = someting to do with breathing ::) how could they have missed it?
Taking my dalmation to the vets tonight - her meglosophogus really bad now :'( not hopeful :'(
-
What an experience for not just you but your poor dog. I don't know what I'd be like in an emergency with my dogs.
I'm so glad he seems to be on the mend.
Best wishes
Kaz
-
Thank you all for your thoughts and well wishes, it means a lot :wave:
We've started to catch up on our sleep now :) Trouble is, when I tell our regular customers who know our dogs in the shop what happened, I start to fill up when I remember his pain. I'm such a pratt sometimes ::)
He had to go for a check up today and he didn't want to go in the vets at all but Di got him in and he is fine ;D 8)
He had a huge bag of medication to take including liquid to stringe x 2 and 4 lots of tablets. He goes silly when he sees us coming towards him now and sticks his head between his front legs and his bum in the air :D don't know what he's trying to achieve but his tail keeps wagging and he makes us smile again.
It seems that we are only to see the head vet from now on too...............wonder why? ::)
He's been given some tins made by Royal Canin to help with dogs who've had this op. It's just slop really and the ingredients are absolute PANTS. Costs a bomb too by the way!
We blended some cooked chicken and rice as recommended by the vet and he wouldn't touch either. Bit of a worry. Fear not though, we blended some raw chicken and goats milk and water and man he loved it.
All dog lovers out there will understand our excitement tonight too when he did his first post op POO!! YAY! I know it's sad but what can you say?
Thanks again everyone, I suspect he's over the worst now although when he's at the shop, as soon as someone looks at him he starts to whimper........Playing to a crowd I believe :D :D
Ian
-
I've been reading all this, but couldn't post till now as I know what you are going through, been there on various occasions, and at present not sure if my little Freckles has a closed Pyo or just a UTI - drinking gallons and weeing even in the house - not at all like her. She was sick this morning so had her scanned this afternoon, no definite evidence of pyo, so just keeping her on ABs for 10 days and monitoring. She should have been spayed in November but that bloody snow put paid to that then she cam in season and it was A looooong one! Yet another reason to raise suspicions, and a lot of vulva licking too.
Glad Boris is picking up, but what are you going to do regarding the vet's errors?
-
I hope Freckles gets better soon. :bouquet:
We discussed the errors and decided to let it lie at the moment. Boris had got a dilated stomach apparently and having lost a dog to torsion in the past I would NEVER want to see that again. What happened to B is uncommon and we don't know whether the bloating caused the sickness or the carrot caused the bloat.
My hope is that the vets learn from the experience and realise that the rubbish pedalled by the likes of Hills Science and Royal Canin isn't gospel and they can open their minds a little to feeding a natural diet.
One thing through all this.........Borris' coat has been immaculate. Strange to comment on it but it is positively shining. To look at him as a neutral person, you'd think he was in the peak of fitness.
Ian
-
Glad that Boris was eventually diagnosed and is on the road to recovery. I think you should speak to your vet about what happened if only to let them know to pay more attention to you in future.
I work at a vets and unfortunately, my experience is that at least 50% of pet owners are idiots and even the inteligent ones can sometimes give completely misleading information about what is causing their pets problems. This means the vet has to gauge whether you are one of the numpties or not. If they don't see you very often because your dogs are fit and well, it can be difficult for them to know. So I think letting them know you are not a numpty is a good idea.
Also, we get lots of dogs presenting as emergencies, and the cause is foreign bodies (whether they are bones, sticks, balls, toys, bottles etc etc etc) but I've never seen one where a dog had inhaled part of a carrot!! Though we have removed a blade of grass from the flaps at the back of a rotties mouth before!
-
poor Boris, wishing him a speedy recovery Ian....
:wave:
-
Poor you and Boris, just shows owners often know best, same with children as we are with them all the time so can rule out some things. Anne, hope freckles recovers well, do you think she may be having pups then? Pets and Children, who would have them????? ALL of us!!!
-
Poor you and Boris, just shows owners often know best, same with children as we are with them all the time so can rule out some things. Anne, hope freckles recovers well, do you think she may be having pups then? Pets and Children, who would have them????? ALL of us!!!
God I hope not! Immaculate conception might be possible in dogs I suppose. ::) But anyway she is almost 10 so a) it would be too much for her (I'd NEVER mate a bitch over 6) and b) they wouldn't be registered by the KC!(They have a limit of 8 years)
-
:-[ :-[ :-[
-
Having had the experience of sick dogs, ponies and cat I wish I had been a vet. The saying we can try this or that makes them money you poor. The one time he did listen to me saved my dogs life, she had a twisted gut and he was going to leave her overnight to see if she improved :o I stood my ground and he operated. Next day he admitted quick thinking saved her life, what he did not say it was my thinking not his. On the other side, they know if I phone for them to come out its serious, with mares foaling time is so important and they have saved both dam and foal. I think now we have an understanding as I have been with them a long time. When you live with an animal you know when they are ill, so glad that Boris is recovered and Freckles is better too Anne :)
-
Freckles is fine really, just drinking like it's going out of style and weeing all the time and if I don't read the signals quickly enough it's on a rug! She's on ABs for another week, been checked for kidney and bladder function, scanned for pyo and although there was some doubt over something on the screen the ABs will keep her OK till we can do further tests or go ahead with spaying att eh beginning of the week. Bloody snow - but for that awful weather in November she'd have been spayed by now, had to postpone as I couldn't get to the vet, then she came in season. Technically we should wait till April for the hormones to settle, but as she's had one litter, and has never had false pregnancies Anna and I reckon its safe enough to do it next week or the week after. But she isn't showing any signs of being ill otherwise. The only thing that worries me is that my pal's Brittany bitch followed the exact same pattern and eventually was given an emergency hysterectomy, having only become ill the day before. so I'm watching Freckles' every move and it's wearing! ::)
-
Knightquest...What a horrible experience for you all, and what a trauma for your dog unnecessarily.
I work at a vets and unfortunately, my experience is that at least 50% of pet owners are idiots/ This means the vet has to gauge whether you are one of the numpties or not./So I think letting them know you are not a numpty is a good idea.
What a sad state of affairs that is. I bet I know which practice you work for.
Does this mean that the vet bases his diagnosis on the intelligence/ability/knowledge of the client, rather than on his/her knowledge/experience as a vet. I know there are vets who are very keen to con their clients into spending more money than they need to, but that is stretching it a bit.
I use several different vets depending on the animal/problem I have, right enough, as some of them simply are not good at their jobs, or are difficult to trust because they are known to be con artists.
I once took a litter of Border Terrier pups to a new vet who had set up a new practice near my home at the time. I believe in giving everyone a go, and this vet had cut a colt for me about a week previously. When I phoned initially, I was asked to bring the pups to the surgery "just before surgery, say, around noon", he said.
I arrived at ten past twelve, having been held up by an RTA, and the vet examined the pups. He declared one to have a prolapsed anus, one with a heart murmur, and they all had lice. When I asked him to show me the lice he said "Oh, I saw one, but its gone now".
He sold me a spray for the lice, and made me a follow-up appointment for the two suspect pups. The total charge was £56 which I paid by cheque before I left the surgery.
I then went to another vet whom I used for equine work, explained to him that I wanted the pups examined for a second opinion and he agreed, although he had to, for ethical reasons, to inform the other vet that he had been approached by me.
After a thorough examination, he declared all four pups to be healthy and sound. "What, no anal prolapse", I asked. "No", he said. "No heart murmer, either", I said. "No" was his reply.
So, I trouped off back to the first vet and told him the news, and asked him if he had anything to say. He did. He said I had been late for my appointment time. I explained to him that "just before surgery, say, around noon", was hardly an appointment, and asked how that may have had an effect on his consultation and ability to make correct diagnoses of the litter.
As he stammered and sweated, I said that he would have to give me my cheque back. He told me it was already on its way to the bank. I said I wanted him to refund me in full except for 50% of his consultation fee or I would call the police. He asked me to promise I wouldn't cancel the cheque if he gave me cash. I got my refund.
It's true that some vets can see us coming at a greater range than can some others, and very sad that one has to demonstrate knowledge of veterinary practice and proceedures in order to avoid being fleeced.
-
i think and have had experience of the fact that if anybody is seaking products or services the provider makes an instant evaluation of your worth and charges accordingly or gives advice based on your ability to shell out just my view also being Scottish may have some influence on my view
-
Aengus, I think you misunderstood me and have taken my comments out of context.
I bet I know which practice you work for.
Well, you would have a 50% chance of being right as there are only 2 practices in Forfar! ;) But I imagine the same figures would be true no matter which vet practice I worked at.
Does this mean that the vet bases his diagnosis on the intelligence/ability/knowledge of the client, rather than on his/her knowledge/experience as a vet.
No it doesn't. I was replying to Ians objection that his own vet had not listened to him. WHat I was saying was that the vet has to guage whether he/she can trust what the owner is telling them is true, factual and/or relevant in conjunction with their examination of the animal.
As for whether vets fleece their clients or not, well, it's a whole different discussion. But just as their are bad customers who don't pay their bill, there are likely to be bad vets who like to create business. There's bad people in all walks of life. >:(
-
Hope both dogs are ok, KQ that sounds horrible and doganjo best of luck for full recovery..
On the vet thing, I also use 2 different practices depending what I am looking for - I don't often say so because it seems to be frowned on but nobody is good at everything and I want the best I can get for my animals not just a generalist for every situation ::)
One vet (no longer with the practice I used him for and he is a really good vet btw so no complaints on his work ;) ) said within my hearing to a vet student while castrating a colt for me, that although you have to ask the owner for a story, she should never really take anything the owner says and always start from scratch in diagnosing and treating any species.. That the owner is paying for her years of training and experience and that it is dangerous to listen so someone who is under pressure, probably thinks they know more than they do, and is quite often missing the blindingly obvious or covering up :o
That he said it in front of me may be a compliment of a sort ::) but it was pretty unprofessional in my view and should have been said in the car before or after the visit, not mid operation in front of an owner/client :( What is worse the vet student was the daughter of a friend of mine, staying with me while seeing practice with the practice I use, at my suggestion because I rated their expertise, if not their billing and office management or in some cases their interpersonal skills :o
I guess in some cases they're right to ignore folk and use the clinical skills they've been trained with over the unsubstantiated beliefs of someone they don't know well enough to assess.. but given the number of animals of two species I have, the length of time I appear to have kept them in reasonable health, and the promptness with which I call out for something I reckon I can't handle or want another view on, I think it is a bit premature to assume zero knowledge until proven otherwise ::)
-
I think that our initial problem arose because we arrived as an emergency case on a Sunday and saw an inexperienced vet. Sometimes that can be good because they should be more up to date with new developments etc but they obviously lack experience.
The practise partner who seems to be the only one we will see from now on ::) didn't actually see Boris struggling for breath on the Sunday as he was only called in after B had been sedated. As soon as he saw him on the Tuesday in this state, he got to him as soon as he could and got the carrot out. (I took a picture of the carrot which I will post later)
The thing that got to me was that as soon as my 17 year old son saw him struggling without knowing what had happened he said that he sounded like he had something stuck in his wind pipe.................My son ain't no vet, I love him but he definately ain't no vet .......I just think that the whole carrot thing was unlikely and vets are anti raw diet by default.
I will add too that looking at Boris at the moment, we can't believe that he was so bad last week. He seems to have made a complete recovery already. (I am touching wood now just in case :D )
Ian
-
BlueDaisy...You may have a point about me taking your remarks out of context. Having re-read your post, I observe, from the quote below, that it is you who make up your mind as to the intelligence of the client. My apologies to the
vet(s). ::)
I work at a vets and unfortunately, my experience is that at least 50% of pet owners are idiots
I work with vets quite a lot in my profession as a horseman/stockman, and I must say that most of them are very keen to discuss aspects of cases, and are keen to enlighten me on their theories and diagnoses. I am lucky in that I have a very enquiring mind on such matters.
I do find it sad, though, that some people who come to a veterinary practice with their animals, putting such faith in the ability of the vet, and who don't know enough to be able to benefit from knowledge-based discussion regarding their animal's health, can be so patronisingly judged by non-veterinary staff. :o However, I appreciate that that may have little bearing on the client's decision to trust the vet.
-
:) You are quite right. I don't have time to defend/explain myself just now as I have to go to work. But I'll be back later. :P
-
I have a very good relationship with all the vets at our practice. The senior one, Iain, is fond of imparting his knowledge to clients as he explains what is wrong with/what the possible treatments are for their animal. ;) He comes across as being passionate about his work. I have noticed other owners 'switching off' sometimes but I find him refreshingly knowledgeable and sympathetic to both me and my animals, and explains things clearly albeit sometimes in technical language ::) I am so glad I found them (by accident - literally when my cat was knocked down a week after I moved down here) I couldn't wish for better. www.cameronandgreigvets.co.uk (http://www.cameronandgreigvets.co.uk) - they just set up their new website, please feel free to have a look around it.
-
Firstly, let me apologise to the OP for hijacking the thread but I do feel I have to defend myself.
AengusOg. I am well known for opening my mouth before putting my brain into gear, so I'm sorry that you are so offended by my flippant use of the word idiot. And perhaps 50% was an overexaggeration, perhaps it is more like 30 -40%. But I also think that we all make assumptions about people based on what they say and what they do. Just take a look at the Coffee Lounge threads. You yourself have posted in the Farmers Life For Me thread, opinions about some of the contestants. Perhaps you have had a particularly bad experience at one of the Forfar vets? I don't know why you are being so sensitive about this. I think I saw in another post someone said that the Great British Public are stupid (or words to that affect) and that is who we deal with on a daily basis at the vets.
In fact, you are making assumptions about me in this stament I do find it sad, though, that some people who come to a veterinary practice with their animals, putting such faith in the ability of the vet, and who don't know enough to be able to benefit from knowledge-based discussion regarding their animal's health, can be so patronisingly judged by non-veterinary staff.
I only judge people by what they say to me, people who are interested in the welfare of their pet, whether educated or not, I would not class as idiots. But some people I believe should not be keeping pets at all. Before I buy any animal I do some research about it, and hope that I have some basic knowledge about what may be required of me as a pet owner. Not everyone does this. I am going to try and give some examples of things people say to me on a daily basis.
"It's a Northern Inuit. His grandfather was a wolf, and his mother is an Alaskan malamute"
"I need to see a vet, now. My dog was run over last November" That was yesterday!
"My dog hasn't eaten for days. Yesterday he had steak, the day before loin of pork, and the day before that topside of beef"
"I just bought a puppy, what weight should it be?" Over the phone with no other info proffered.
"I just bought a puppy/kitten, what should I do now?"
"I just bought a pedigree puppy, can I get on the PDSA?"
"My dog has had diarrhoea for a week can I get a pill for that?" Didn't want to make an appointment, and didn't have the dog with them.
An emergency phone call "There is a pigeon on my windowsill, can the vet come and get it?"
Another emergency... "my dog has something sharp sticking out of his bum" When the dog arrived it's bum was caked with dried poo.
Anyone who smells of alcohol/is visibly drunk (or high) during the day, I don't tend to have much respect for.
Then there are more serious cases where because an owner has not trained their dog sufficiently, the dog is put to sleep because of behavioural issues. These usually have long, complicated histories, but boil down to basic training.
Owners who have a dog put to sleep for behavioural issues, then get a new puppy very shortly thereafter.
I could go on and on. Sorry for the long post.
AengusOg, I'm sorry if you feel I judge these types of people harshly but after a while it just gets tiresome, and depressing.
-
When you work with the general public in anyfield, especialy Dr's Social workers, teachers etc, you get them all, I think people think that some one on that level of interlect, will be able to answer any question, my hubby asks some strange stuff as he is Dyslexic, I suppose the stupid questions are better than none. On Jamies dream school a girl asked if Rats have periods, now I thought that was a good question and the answer was no but some animals do, so, she was confident to ask and we all found something out, on that subject, when I worked in Schools I was always amazed durring Sex education lessons, how some active 15 year olds had the wrong knowledge!!!!!!!! So, those silly questions are in fact often a indication of the respect for the others interlect, all part of the job, a question is only silly when you know the answer!!!
We like our vet in Alloa, they are so nice and no nonsense type people, just what we like, they also will explain in simple or complex terms and take care and time with the animals and owners, wish my local GP was like that!!!!
-
Fair play to you BlueDaisy.
Some sun might help. ;) :)
-
:)Some sun would definitely help, it's blimmin' 'orrible out there! ;D