The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Helencus on January 17, 2011, 07:57:56 pm
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In the near future I'm going to have to 'identify' the piglets. What's peoples recommended ID method given I've never tagged, slap marked. Tattooed or notched. I'd be really interested in your thoughts and experiences.
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if they are pedigree pigs they have to be marked in accordance with the individual breed requirements slap marking is only to identify your pig through the slaughter process
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They're saddlebacks the bpa said notching or tattoo but mine are double ear tagged they weren't keen on that though for some reason.
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if they were pedigree they should have been notched when you bought them you cant notch them only pigs that you have produced you can notch you can tag as well easier for others to identify individual pigs
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Well they're all double tagged and that's ok but you have to write to bpa to tell them you're doing that.
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Best to consult your BPA breed rep (see the BPA website). They'll advise you of the latest regulations.
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Thanks I'm waiting on my membership pack so I'll give them a call. I know I can double tag not sure about tattooing though. Definately don't fancy notching. Is tagging and tattooing easy enough to do do you get instructions?
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Well you get info on what details go in which ear but not alot else ,your tatoo equipment gives a good guide of how to do it ;it's not really that hard.Just on the ears yours and theirs.
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Lol mine too ;D what do I get on mine the pigs names? Don't think my ears are big enough for bonking boris! ;D ;D
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I can't remember what breed you have but if they are anything like our TAMS you will NEED ear defenders like those they use when digging up the road[SERIOUSLY].They create a volume well in excess of safe noise levels; prolonged it would deafen you.
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Helencus,
This subject causes more confusion than any other, given three competing requirements
- Legal reqs for ID, which have paint mark, tagging, slapmark and tatoo as different options at different times
- Pedigree pigs breed reqs that vary per breed, both in what can be done, and indeed for notching on how notched
- Management reqs - you just knowing which pig is which
If you come back with why you need to tag, I'll try and get more specific, but let me try and cover the above without getting everyone (inc myself) more confused.
Below is a summary ONLY, does not include all elements -
Legal reqs
England - at basic level no need to ID as long as pig remains on holding of birth, so if you breed and keep you don’t need to do anything. Under 1 year old can move between holdings on a paint mark, so if you buy and keep a piglet, it can come on a paint mark, and as long as remains on your property, no further ID needed. Pig over 1 year old – selling – either eartag (plastic or metal, but must be pre-printed) with herd number or tattoo with herd number. No individual ID needed. Don’t slapmark, as this is only used for slaughter. Pig any age going to slaughter – slapmark, eartag (needs to be tag which survives scald process, so generally metal), can be tattoo, but most abattoirs hate this so will not take tattoo, and insist on slapmark or tag. Some abattoirs insist on slapmark, so check before marking.
Scotland – generally pigs can move on a temporary paint mark. A pig can legally move to slaughter on a paint mark, although some abattoirs will not accept this.
Pedigree Pigs
Different breeds have different reqs. Some notch, some tattoo, some allow tagging. Even notching varies between breeds.
For saddlebacks (others can add other breeds if they wish, they are listed in our book), the British Saddleback Club are desperately keen that you notch. They see this as the only secure way to mark pigs (their view is that tags can be snipped out or altered!), and that it is traditional. That is why you are getting this strong steer from them. You can double tag, but will get problems if you want to show them at BPA shows. The notching scheme for saddlebacks is different than other breeds (although the BPA was pushing to get a single scheme), as the society view feel that two notches close to each other (as is required in some cases for other scheme) will affect the ability of the pig to “carry its ears forward” and create a pig with floppy ears, which is against standard. I am just repeating the British Saddleback Club views and their logic here, not making the case for them.
If you start “your herd” by notching, you cannot change to tagging afterwards. As for whether notching cause a problem, we notch where required, but I have to say I do not enjoy doing this. If done at a few days old, the piglets will react, and indeed squeal, but whilst this obviously does cause some pain which very quickly goes away, much of the squealing is caused by you restraining the piglet to do it. Spray after with purple spray, and it is a quick and easy process. If you choose tagging, you must inform the BPA, and tagging must be done on both ears with an individual ID before 8 weeks of age. Most use button tags as flag tags at this age will be large in relation to the piglet.
You cannot tattoo your saddlebacks for pedigree (on its own), so tattoo has no pedigree significance for saddlebacks – it is the ID method on several other breeds.
Management tags
We use these a lot – they have no legal or pedigree use. Ours are just a flag tag with a number on it. We have some 20 saddleback sows (ear-notched for pedigree), and rather than try and remember the numbering scheme, we add these management tags – eg a tag saying "20". That way Clare can say to be “I need no. 20 up to the boar today” and i know which one she means – she (being a woman) recognises all of them by sight !
So if you are registering your pigs, the recommendation is to ear-notch for saddlebacks. Whilst they remain with you, you need do no more. If you sell over a year old, you add a plastic or metal tag with a pre-printed herd Number. If you notch, then like us you can add a management tag. If you take to slaughter, they need a metal tag with herd number or to be slapmarked. If you opt for double tags, they should have herd number and individual ID for saddlebacks. This will also act as legal ID if you sell. If you take to slaughter, you will need to add a metal tag (almost all pedigree ID tags are Plastic) or slapmark
Simples.....
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Thanks oaklands. So mine are pedigree saddlebacks as you know, plans are to sell most of the weaners and keep a couple unregistered to fatten. So if I don't fancy notching at all as I have no clue and will very probably get it wrong and I find the prospect of notching on my own no experience frankly daunting. The piglets are 11 days old now so will hurt like hell no doubt. So I prefer tagging. That being the case I understand registered weaners im selling of breed standard will need 2 I'd tags herdmark and individual id tag, unregistered just 1 with herdmark only. Is that correct? The ones I'm fattening I need do nothing with so long as they stay with me I can then metal tag or slapmark if acceptable to abbatoir just prior to slaughter. Did I understand correctly?
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Close.
The ones I'm fattening I need do nothing with so long as they stay with me I can then metal tag or slapmark if acceptable to abattoir just prior to slaughter.yes
Any you are selling for meat (whether of standard or not) - simple paint mark (animal spray marker) as they are under 1 year. The buyer would then metal tag or slapmark with their herd no. before slaughter. If you tag, you just add confusion,as the buyer would need to add a tag or slapmark with their number before slaughter, giving a pig with two herd ID's, and more chance that the abattoir will not marry the paperwork and pig up!
Any you sell of breed standard for breeding IF the buyer doesn't intend to register (and is clear that they don't) they just want a good breed standard sow – then no need to tag, just like meat pigs they can go on a temporary paint mark, and the buyer doesn't need to do any ID as long as it remains on their property.
Any of breed standard you are selling for possible breeding IF the buyer wants (or may want) to register them – yes two tags, each should have HDL no. and individual ID printed on one side, and defra herd no. on the other,– you can order these from any tag manufacturer, you cannot hand write.
Any of breed standard that you want to keep for breeding (or to make a decision later on) should again be double tagged.
You will need to tell the BPA that you are tagging – quote from their rules
“The BPA recommends Tattooing or Notching for Pedigree Identification. If you opt to use tags as your only form of identification you must inform the BPA in writing and follow the rules for double tagging registered pigs. Plastic button tags with your DEFRA herdmark on one side and your HDL and ear number on the other are best. We do not recommend metal tags for pedigree identification. Pigs for showing must be tattooed or notched.”
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PS - This assumes that buyers of "meat pigs" do not want meat certificates (certifies that they were pedigree) - unless they have a very specific market this is unlikely. However if they do want meat certificates, then they would need individual ID, so double tag as per breeding.
Finally on the birth notification form you would put only those you have tagged in the notified bit - eg if 8 born (and all survived to weaning), but only 3 tagged , then you would have :
Born alive 8
Born dead 0
weaned 8
Notified 3
Only those 3 could have either a meat certifiacte or be added as a registered pig.
Am becoming increasingly convined that you could set a GCSE exam on Pig ID !
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Indeed I think I need to do extra revision! ;D that's a huge help oaklands thanks so much for that. In terms of the mark what do I put, anything or do you do something specific?
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Presume you mean paint mark?
If so then whatever paint mark you make on the pig needs to be refelcted in the paperwork.
With saddelebacks you have the saddle, so we tend to spay a dot on a white shoulder bit. We would then put on the AML2 "Blue dot on shoulder"
Other people use cross, dash, stripe - the key is that you can match the AML2 to the pig. "red cross on rump" "green stripe on back" etc.
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Yes I did thanks so can you put the same mark on several or does it have to be different for each pig? Sorry for all the questions but value your experience.
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Sorry to butt in, but we had some BerksxGOS piglets born on New Years Eve - our first (and the pigs lol). We are planning on keeping these for fattening. Do we need to birth notify or is this just for the pedigree pigs when they are born?
GOS pedigree pigs are with the boar at the moment. So hopefully we will have some pedigree piglets in the near future.
I understand the tagging, slapmarks and notching, etc but forgot about the birth notification. (First timers, eh !!)
Can you help please?
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Yep we're a pain in the butt but folks on the pig forum are very knowledgeable and helpful :-))
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If you have pedigree piglets born it is a good idea to birth notify. If any then turns out to be worth keeping/selling for breeding you have the option of registering as a pedigree.
I think you have 12 weeks max. from birth to birth notify.
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Yes I did thanks so can you put the same mark on several or does it have to be different for each pig? Sorry for all the questions but value your experience.
All marked the same for each batch.
The idea is that you can track "batches" through, so in a commercial load you could (in theory) have Fred's and Georges pigs in two sections on the lorry. The paperwork and paint mark would tell you which is which - eg Fred's would have a green stripe and George's a blue spot. The days of weaners going in multiple loads are well over, as is delivering to abattoir on a paint mark, but the law is still there.
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Sorry to butt in, but we had some BerksxGOS piglets born on New Years Eve - our first (and the pigs lol). We are planning on keeping these for fattening. Do we need to birth notify or is this just for the pedigree pigs when they are born?
Can you help please?
No problem.
There are three “types” of pig:
Registered (also called Pedigree) pigs. These are purebred pigs that are first “birth notified” to the BPA (the BPA hold the records for most breeds, inc. GOS) when they are born, and subsequently are registered to the owner. Normally only breeding stock is registered. Both parents must have been registered. Only the owner of the sow can birth notify. To register your sow you must join the BPA (and obviously have a pig that was birth notified or has already been registered). Birth notification must occur within 8 weeks of birth.
Purebred pigs. These may be offspring of registered parents that were not birth notified (it is not mandatory to birth notify, but if you don’t register offspring cannot be used for registered breeding). Many people have purebred, as they don’t want the hassle of pedigree. Stock from purebreds can be sold as such, but if you are advertising your litters as say GOS, you should be happy that they are pure.
Cross-bred – everything else !
So as birth notification is for pedigree registered pigs only, you don't need to worry about this for your current crossbreds.
For your future litters - are you GOS pigs registered with BPA, registered to you and you are a member? If so you have the option of birth notifying when you do breed (this is not mandatory, unless you are going to breed from the offspring and register them, sell certified meat pigs or sell for breeding). Both sow and boar must be registered (although boar can be registered to someone else) and obviously same breed! If not, don't worry, just enjoy having some fantastic pigs.
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oaklands since you are held in such high regard PS - This assumes that buyers of "meat pigs" do not want meat certificates (certifies that they were pedigree) - unless they have a very specific market this is unlikely. However if they do want meat certificates, then they would need individual ID, so double tag as per breeding.
Finally on the birth notification form you would put only those you have tagged in the notified bit - eg if 8 born (and all survived to weaning), but only 3 tagged , then you would have :
Born alive 8
Born dead 0
weaned 8
Notified 3
Only those 3 could have either a meat certificate or be added as a registered pig.
Am becoming increasingly convined that you could set a GCSE exam on Pig ID !
I think you are wrong with this. The birth notification form is just that, birth notification nothing more and nothing less. The meat certificate can be obtained on any birth notified piglet. Now this may explain how the litters are decreasing in size if you only notify (as your example) 3 piglets that is recorded on the mother's history (the date when piglets born number born then the number that is notified).
Now your last posting,THE BPA CLEARLY STATES THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF PIG. PEDIGREE WITH PAPERS AND ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST A PIG I think you are mudding the waters with your PUREBRED. Unless it is your own marketing blurb. Now this is just my take on this but claiming
(stock from purebreds can be sold as such) is trade description. If it does not have papers(copy of the birth notification) it is just a pig of equal status as an eight way cross
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Lillian,
You are correct that to be eligible for a meat certificate the pig must be birth notified - that is it must appear in the "notified column" and to do this must have an individual ID, hence in Helencus' case would need two tags. Meat certificates require the number of the pig concerned to be on the certificate and on the pig - otherwise how can you tie back a pig to the fact that it is pedigree?- all the certificate forms show an eartag number - as per BPA website. http://www.britishpigs.org.uk/on-line%20meat%20certificates.pdf
If your understanding is different, come back by all means.
The "born" "weaned" etc. columns shows the number born etc. and would be used by the BPA to show the fecundity of the breeds and lines.
I am very happy that the BPA states that pigs are registered or not. That is their position. The kennel club would say the same about dogs. However I would reckon that 90% of piglets sold in the UK are unregistered, and described by their parentage. You are quite correct on trade description, and I stated that you should be happy that what you are selling is as described. However the BPA is not the legal authority - at the end DNA would be, and their is no legal req that you can only sell a pig as say saddleback if it is registered. (caveat re selling GOS pork rather than pigs - but this area too long to detail) At the end of the day the BPA is merely a club who through concensus runs a list of pigs that people tell it are xx. It has no legal authority to run this list, or any exclusive right to the list. An equivalent would be to say that the kennel club could stop me descibing my wippet as a wippet unless I had registered it with them. Plenty of unregistered wippets around. If you worry about whether it is pure - then logic says you would only buy from birth notified stock.
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oaklands
you answered my post with tact and diplomacy however with yourself running pig courses and writing books it was your explanation of the boxes on the birth notification form that is missleading(i quoted your whole posting rather than one part)
i am well aware of the ruling with GOS/supermarkets now the point with there only being two types of pig(the bpa's oppinion) is to prevent the less astute that are embarking into the wonderful world of pig keeping to keep it simple (once they have there pigs they get attached to them and want to keep them)it is very difficult to tell somebody that the pigs they have cared for and nurtured and been implied that they are of pedigree stock when in fact they have just a pig with no paper work there are unscrupulous breeders in all forms you just need to look at the micro pig business a shinning example
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oaklands
however with yourself running pig courses and writing books it was your explanation of the boxes on the birth notification form that is missleading(i quoted your whole posting rather than one part)
i
Sorry Lillian, you're going to need to expand on that , am very happy to engage to get to a common understanding, but you leave me unsure as to what I misstated. Can you expand on this please so that i can understand?
All my posts on here are given "pro bono" and are limited to time to type them - I try my best to impart knowledge to forum queries, and to help forum questioners to a better understanding.
As for the rest of your post, you make a cogent argument, but I feel there are more shades to pig keeping than registered vs. micro-pigs, and we explain much of this on our courses and in our book, both of which receive much praise from participants and readers.
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oaklands
i have your book and agree that it covers a wide range of information and is very useful. :)
mx
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For the most part, the biggest, best label for selling my meat is FREE RANGE. :) :) :)
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Manian,
Thanks for the recommendation - much appreciated.
Lillian
It would be good to clear up what you think I have said above that is misleading, as future readers of this post will be left with a quandry. If between us we can get to a common understanding (if not agreement!) then at least readers can make up their own mind. If I have mis-understood, or just badly phrased, I would be delighted to improve the wording for the benefit of the forum.
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Oaklands didn't know you had written a book, be very interested in reading it what's the title?
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Just noticed your strapline and had a look at your website. Nice site will look forward to reading your book.
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Hi Helencus,
Have just being doing some reading up on pig topics and have followed your questions with interest. We are new to keeping/breeding too and have just had our first litter (11 pedigree Berkshires) and notching/tagging has raised a few questions. We are also based in Leicestershire, it would be great to make some local piggy friends.