The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: janeislay on January 13, 2011, 10:07:13 am

Title: When to castrate ?
Post by: janeislay on January 13, 2011, 10:07:13 am
My outside born piglets are now nearly two months old and growing well.  I thought I'd read somewhere here that you should separate out the boar piglets from the girl piglets when weaning, but someone has just told me they should have been castrated at a few days old.

They are Tamworth crossed with Saddleback so not likely to be wanted as breeding stock; is it too late to castrate ? 
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: JulieS on January 13, 2011, 10:11:48 am
I don't castrate here, but I thought it had to be in the first day or so.

Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: janeislay on January 13, 2011, 11:05:02 am
I don't castrate here, but I thought it had to be in the first day or so.



And are they ok to kill at about 6 months ?  The man that was telling us, said they would be "tainted".  But if you can eat uncastrated lamb at a year old, why not pigs at 6 months ?
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: supplies for smallholders on January 13, 2011, 11:08:31 am
Hi,

If going by six months then they should be fine, we have taken males to 6+ months with no taint.

It may help to keep them away from the females, as being close can get the hormones going.

Too late to castrate now unless carried out by a vet.

Thanks
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: janeislay on January 13, 2011, 11:30:11 am
Oh what a relief - thanks !  I plan to separate them at weaning in a couple of weeks time.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Sudanpan on January 13, 2011, 01:41:13 pm
We had 4 entire boar weaners for fattening last year - kept them til they were 7 and a half months old - meat was (is!) superb and no taint at all. As the boars were all from the same litter there was no problems with any particular argy bargy.
Tish
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: robert waddell on January 13, 2011, 01:54:45 pm
with castration you can do it yourself up to 4 days old there after it is a vet job
if you separate out the males and run them separate  as entire males they will ride each other now you tell me if that is sexually active or not
any males that we have that is not up to standard for breeding are cut this is our preference and totally avoids any chance of boar taint which does exist
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Eve on January 13, 2011, 03:45:15 pm
Janeislay: have a look at the "rancid joint" topic a bit further down the page, it explains about boar taint. We never buy castrated boars.  :wave:


Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: gavo on January 13, 2011, 03:47:32 pm
You don't need to castrate them ,the group of boys will ride each other on occasion, but ours do this and we slaughter entire boars at 11 months we have never had taint; i would advise you to slaughter earlier than us, as cross breeds seem to mature earlier perhaps 7-8 months ;but again if they reach a size your happy with earlier, then do them earlier. My general advice is relax, enjoy the experience of producing your own meat ;treat them well ,give them a varied diet and they will reward your care with the best meat you wiil ever have tasted.It is not rocket science it takes commonsense and a true love and care of the animal and the ability to ask questions and follow your gut instinct it will generally see you right also have a good vet lined up just in case [probs are rare but they do happen].
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: The Woodsiders on January 13, 2011, 05:59:22 pm
I love the title of the thread, I would have thought the anwer to "when to castrate" would be when the poor b-gg--s aint looking!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Tudful Tamworths on January 13, 2011, 06:32:00 pm
I never castrate and have had no complaints - either about meat I've sold, nor about boars raised by others for meat.

The boar taint thing is a complex issue, and I'm sure there are threads elsewhere about it. I've researched this quite a lot, and there are numerous factors involved, including breeds, rearing systems, and feeding, so if anyone wants more info, message me.

I've never had it in traditional pigs and I've sometimes kept boars to seven or eight months before slaughtering. I only ever had it in Landrace/Pietrain crosses which went to slaughter later than planned. My husband didn't notice any taint, but I could smell it whilst cooking, though the taste was fine.

You may be interested to hear that pressure groups are lobbying for an EU ban on castration by 2018, and it looks as if the EU will have a ban on pig castration done without anesthetic by 2012. 

I don't separate males from females at weaning - never have done, and have never had problems. The "riding" that someone spoke about is an expression of dominance, not sexual behaviour - same happens with dogs, even when castrated.
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: supplies for smallholders on January 13, 2011, 07:44:22 pm
I know that this wont really interest or apply to most, but did you know that castration is banned on commercial units producing pork meat for "Farm Assured" schemes ?

Just thought I would mention it...
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: janeislay on January 13, 2011, 07:48:46 pm
Hmm - all very interesting.

Loved your answer, Markcott  ;D

After taking the Black sow to the abattoir this morning, we moved Mrs Tamworth and her children to the proposed forest garden this afternoon.  What well behaved piggies they were - through the pony handling pens, across the burn, thru another field, across the main road and up the back drive into their new area.  They all kept together beautifully.

I was worried they wouldn't find their new house - they were all charging about in different directions, but when we went to check them before dark, they were all happily snoozing inside !  The stallion and his companion stood watching them over the fence - enjoying the entertainment !  (I thought horses and pigs didn't mix  ::) )
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: janeislay on January 13, 2011, 07:50:16 pm
I know that this wont really interest or apply to most, but did you know that castration is banned on commercial units producing pork meat for "Farm Assured" schemes ?

Just thought I would mention it...

What - totally banned ?  Even by a vet ?  What's the reasoning ?
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: supplies for smallholders on January 13, 2011, 08:18:27 pm
Same as tail docking, teeth clipping and nose ringing - they are all classed as mutilation and un-neccessary unless on a case by case basis for health reasons.
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: gavo on January 13, 2011, 11:34:49 pm
Having seen out boys riding each other IT IS most definately sexual on many an occasion unless todgers and cream isn't sexual.
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Anke on January 14, 2011, 06:46:50 am
We have raised entire males for meat successfully without any taint or similar, and I have found they squabble a lot less than if we have girls only... but I always have either all girls or all boys, as I only have one ark. I don't breed them either.

As pigs can be grown to good slaughter weight within 6 months I would personally not see any need for castration, as long as you can separate them out from the girls early on.
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Hilarysmum on January 14, 2011, 08:30:55 am
I believe there is a new EU rule coming into being next year that bans castration at any age without the use of an anaesthetic.  Has anyone else read of this
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: janeislay on January 14, 2011, 09:59:03 am
Same as tail docking, teeth clipping and nose ringing - they are all classed as mutilation and un-neccessary unless on a case by case basis for health reasons.

What about lambs ?  Is castrating them to be banned ?  I know a number of breeders don't do it early enough and this causes more suffering than necessary.
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: robert waddell on January 14, 2011, 10:02:32 am
yes the boar taint could run and run it is my preference to castrate males not required for breeding as we can detect the taint and if we can others can and do detect it. it does exist
now this farm assured scheme will not include bullocks and castrated tup lambs then ,or is it only pigs???
TUDFUL TAMWORTHS as gavo has pointed out and we have observed the riding is sexual(penis out with penetration and semen over the lead pig (sometimes there was a row of them) ) now if that is not sexual one of us is wrong
as to the EU  rilling once again Brittan toes the line to the Brussels rule makers
when i was at college all male pigs were castrated i can see how they are not  now if there is a cough at one end of the farrowing shed by the time it gets to the other end it has developed into galloping lurgie
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: supplies for smallholders on January 14, 2011, 10:20:49 am
Oh dear....

I didn't mean to start a castration war....

Just pointing out that some of the "often viewed as cruel and mean" commercial producers often have better welfare standards imposed on them than smallholders, who can currently do as they please, and as they have always done it.

On the subject of lambs, I'm not aware of any new rules coming in ref castration, but in my humble view, applying a castration ring to a lamb is far less painfull than lopping them off with a scalpel without anesthetic at a few hours old.

As my previous post said, we have taken entire male saddlebacks to way over 6 months with no trace of boar taint at all.

Thanks
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Fowgill Farm on January 14, 2011, 10:30:47 am
Lillian
Don't wish to upset you but from your comments i sumise you are one of our more mature contributors and perhaps have or have kept pigs commercially. I have found it tends to be the mature generation and commercial keepers who have experiences of boar taint which as you rightly say very much can occur. We don't castrate our boars but try to ensure they are kept apart from gilts and go to the butcher before 28 wks (did have a mishap and some went at 31wks once but tasted gorgeous and well fatty!). The other factor seems to be stress at killing which i have heard can cause taint as it increases the flow of adrenalin in the pig prior to killing which stays in the tissue and causes the taint.
I would suspect that the majority of people on here do as i do and ensure a stress free trip to the abbattoir and so have not come across taint.
As for the EU don't get me started !!!!
best Mandy
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: robert waddell on January 14, 2011, 10:49:44 am
mature yes but depends on the definition of mature
no never kept pigs commercially
the best way to detect if your pig was stressed is when you are cutting it up stress spots basically spots of congelled blood in the carcase
once you are aware of what boar taint is by smell you will detect it at cafes restaurants and mobile burger vans
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Fowgill Farm on January 14, 2011, 11:35:32 am
Definition of mature:
If like me you remeber a time before supermarkets dominated, no such thing as MaccyDees (Though there were Wimpy's), milk came in glass bottles from the milkman, bread came in waxed paper, power cuts and going to school in fluroescent armbands coz they didn't change the clocks one winter! and when sixpence bought a bag of crisps & 2 fruit salad chews and fleecy clothes hadn't been invented, you wore jumpers your Nan had knitted!!
 ;D ;D
Hows that!
Mandy  :wave:
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: robert waddell on January 14, 2011, 12:57:56 pm
not bad but the new musical express was less than 5p
petrol three and fourpence a gallon  leyland tiger buses no cabs on tractors  tractor heaters were an ex army grey coat  100 gallons of red diesel was £10 children could cycle on the roads safely sex was safe motorsport was dangerous(and not the other way around )only 3 channels on the TV(if your older only 2 channels)you watched a film on TV or the cinema used to listen to the telephone wires singing sweet shops were somebody's front room               i remember it as if it were yesterday
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: OhLaLa on January 14, 2011, 01:54:58 pm
Threepenny bits
Hot pants
Milk during school breaktime
Vesta Currys


Sorry, off topic I know...  :-[

Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: janeislay on January 14, 2011, 04:52:51 pm
Only three channels on TV  :o   :o

There wasn't such a thing in my young days  ::) 
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Tudful Tamworths on January 14, 2011, 05:29:39 pm
Whether you agree with it or not, looks like a ban is on the way:

http://www.pigprogress.net/news/eu-banning-piglet-castration-by-2018-6786.html
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: supplies for smallholders on January 14, 2011, 06:16:43 pm
Currently :

From Defra:

The Welfare of Farmed Animals (England)
(Amendment) Regulations 2003 (S.I. 2003 No. 299),
Schedule 6, Part II, paragraphs 22 and 23 (2) state
that:
22.Male pigs may be castrated provided the means
employed do not involve tearing of tissues.
23.(2) If castration is carried out after the seventh
day of life it shall only be performed by a
veterinary surgeon in accordance with the
provisions of the Protection of Animals
(Anaesthetics) Act 1954.

From Farm Assurance Standards (Red Tractor):

AM.1.1 K Castration is not permitted. (PG.AM.1.1)
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: oaklandspigs on January 14, 2011, 07:14:26 pm
Defra site out of date (not unusual!) - The Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 were revoked by the Welfare of Farmed Animals Regulations 2007, and the section on castration moved to the The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007.  This states in schedule 3.1

1. Castration
The method used must not involve the tearing of tissues.
An anaesthetic and additional prolonged analgesia must be administered where the animal is aged 7 days or over.

Sorry just being pedantic - apologies SfS - plaese forgive me ! :)
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: supplies for smallholders on January 14, 2011, 07:17:05 pm
Quote
Sorry just being pedantic - apologies SfS - plaese forgive me ! Smiley

........Dont I always ?  ;D
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: robert waddell on January 14, 2011, 07:30:20 pm
and what about scotland???????????
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: oaklandspigs on January 14, 2011, 09:32:17 pm
........Dont I always ?  ;D

You do !

Always recommend your site!
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: oaklandspigs on January 14, 2011, 09:37:13 pm
and what about scotland???????????

Will look that up when  I get a mo !  Trouble is that it is harder to get the law in Scotland.  Maybe if you rejoined us???? :) :) :)
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Tudful Tamworths on January 14, 2011, 11:13:56 pm
Regardless of the boar taint debate, which could make up a whole new topic, what this comes down to is whether castration without anaesthetic is ethical or not.
Surely, the bottom line has to be, does castration without anaesthetic cause unnecessary suffering? (male readers cross your legs now - oh, sorry, you already have!).

I'm not opposed to the procedure being carried out properly, in hygienic conditions and, of course, under anaesthetic, but someone doing half a dozen at a time in the barn, with a possibly grubby penknife (as I've seen it done) is another matter. How can anyone endorse the practice of causing an animal such severe pain at just few days old? Carry on castrating in your own way, if you feel it's right, but I think it's barbaric and nothing will change my mind.
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Eve on January 14, 2011, 11:46:34 pm
Exactly!

 :wave:
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: robert waddell on January 15, 2011, 12:45:30 am
i reffer back to my college days   three ways to castrate       with the bardizo(two nicks with pliers on the vain going to the scrotal sack)
with scalpel and antiseptic     and a variation on this theme     with scalpel to open the bag and the testicles removed with the teeth now the last one is the old Shepard's way and of course the good old rubber ring
as to the suffering is that not  why it has to be the vet after7 days old
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: Stevie G on January 15, 2011, 02:44:26 pm
Its all very interesting Guys, but what applies Outdoors does not necessarily apply indoors.
Castration can be done from the day they are born(especially indoors), but if it is not an necessity then I do not do it.
It is all to do wth the contract you have, and not alot else!!!!!
Title: Re: When to castrate ?
Post by: oaklandspigs on January 15, 2011, 05:03:26 pm
and what about scotland???????????

Comes under The Prohibited Procedures on Protected Animals (Exemptions) (Scotland) Regulations 2010

Schedule 2

Castration Controlling reproduction or general animal management.
 
Conditions— 
 
1) Castration may only be performed by means other than the tearing of tissues. 
 
2) Where pigs are older than 7 days of age the procedure must be performed under anaesthetic and additional prolonged analgesia and only by a veterinary surgeon.