The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: SavageU on August 26, 2023, 08:56:54 pm
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Hi
Got 3 Cades in my flock.
They weren’t wormed, thought I’d see how they go and worn as needed.
Been fine, cracking lambs, last couple of days bad scours/diarrhoea.
Wormed/fluked yesterday but today one looks depressed and the other one is definitely lagging behind the flock.
I’ve put some hay out for them for some fibre. Is there anything else I can do for them?
Bit more bucket feed?
I had a feel of the little one and he feels to be losing condition as his back felt bony.
How long should I expect them to turn around in?
Is there anything else I can give them food wise?
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Get a worm egg count done before you treat next time. It normally takes a week to 10 days to pick up and get growing again after a worm or cocci burden. If they carry on losing weight, get your vet involved.
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Thanks, yes that was the plan just to do fec counts rather than by rote. They aren’t overstocked and plenty of grass to go at but they graze the bits they like!
How do you do the fec test? Follow them until they poop? It’s incredibly bad, down both their legs. Dagged what I could at the same time.
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Yes follow them round till they produce a sample, collect up a few fresh, even sized samples from lambs in the group, put in bag/tub/glove, then store in fridge till you can get it to the vet. Most vets do same day results and will advise what to treat with if treatment is necessary.
I would do one this week- tell the vet you’ve dosed and what wormer you used. If it’s worms then you may have resistance, if it’s cocci then wormer is as much use as a chocolate teapot.
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Thanks, will do that.
Hoping they improve slightly tomorrow as today was not great.
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Fallen down an internet rabbit hole.
Medicated feed for coccidiosis?
Really? I have never seen it, I’d this something that’s generally available in U.K.
Could this be because they’ve not been offered as much hard feed?
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If it is worms then their poo should already be firming up a bit provided the wormer worked , if cocci then they will only get worse until you speak to your vet and get a treatment quickly ,also ask about re-hydration ( pinch the skin on a lambs back and hold ,when released in a healthy lamb it goes back to firm and tight , in a dehydrated lamb it stays loose and still pinched ) . You don't say what age they are ? the longer they scour the more damage can be done internally
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Fallen down an internet rabbit hole.
Medicated feed for coccidiosis?
Really? I have never seen it, I’d this something that’s generally available in U.K.
Could this be because they’ve not been offered as much hard feed?
It’s on prescription only, and more of a preventative. Also normally only available in large quantities. You can also get medicated buckets which I’ve trialled with a bit of success again in preventing cocci. Normally the treatment for cocci is either vecoxan/dycoxan or tolracol (both are oral drenches) but your vet needs to diagnose it first before using it. Tolracol is prescription only. Cocci is a nightmare and once you’ve got it, it’s hard to get rid of in subsequent years.
But there are several differentials for scouring and ill thrift so if they aren’t looking any better after the bank holiday I’d get the vet involved. Good luck!
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Fallen down an internet rabbit hole.
Medicated feed for coccidiosis?
Really? I have never seen it, I’d this something that’s generally available in U.K.
Could this be because they’ve not been offered as much hard feed?
It’s on prescription only, and more of a preventative. Also normally only available in large quantities. You can also get medicated buckets which I’ve trialled with a bit of success again in preventing cocci. Normally the treatment for cocci is either vecoxan/dycoxan or tolracol (both are oral drenches) but your vet needs to diagnose it first before using it. Tolracol is prescription only. Cocci is a nightmare and once you’ve got it, it’s hard to get rid of in subsequent years.
But there are several differentials for scouring and ill thrift so if they aren’t looking any better after the bank holiday I’d get the vet involved. Good luck!
Hi
They are March/April born lambs.
They had perked up a lot more today, took some feed out in the bucket and they were both bright eyed and ate. I didn't leave feeling worried.
I think i'm definitely going to go down the fec test route on Tuesday and speak to our vets, as going forward I want to be able to do this.
Might look into the buckets at some point if I need to. Really hope this is just a case of lush grass and being a lamb! I just worry.
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Good to hear that they have improved ,looks like the wormer worked :thumbsup: . FEC is very easy to do on an individual or flock basis all you need is a spoon a biro and some freezer bags . twizzel - the first lambs i treated for cocci maybe 1985 i got sulfanilamide powder from the vet mixed it with distilled water and injected it in to the leg muscle which caused some lambs short term lameness , so like every thing else much easier now
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Brought the lamb in with another, still really runny and only marginally less squirty.
Still bright eyed and eating.
A day grazing and hay on a night in the Mistal has sorted him out.
Firmed right up, so tidied his back end a bit more. Some of those clinkers are going to have to grow a bit more before I can get to them.
I did ring the vet as he does feel very bony on his spine, but now feel happy he’s through the other side of it. Vet said to wait before treating for anything like coccidiosis.
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Gah.
Just to update the thread.
Kept him grazing, checking daily. Eating,Mars fine but still scouring.
Today properly unsteady and actually fell over (whilst eating nuts still) got him up, stayed up but he is unsteady and losing weight now I’m sure.
Can I worm him again? I really don’t want the vet out again if I can at all help it, but thought I could worn tomorrow, vet Monday!
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Don’t just worm him again, do a worm egg count and see what is going on, you could be retreating it and just causing wormer resistance if worms aren’t the problem. If it’s going downhill and losing weight you need to get the vet involved.
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On our way to the vet..
So annoyed I haven’t trusted my gut and trusted the vet a week ago.
Will ask about FEC samples going forward as I can’t have this again.
Still looking bright enough which I’m hopeful about.
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Any further news on your lamb?
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Hi,
Update as follows.
Took him to vet. Explained, she said he had lost muscle tone and weight but wasn’t sure what it was.
Did ask me if I’d had sheep long…ouch.
She jabbed him with antibiotic, steroid anti inflammatory and something else…pain relief maybe.
I brought him home (still down) he’s perked up at intervals and standing, eating etc.
They rang me and said they thought he’d got a fluke and he needed a narrow spectrum wormer.
He is finally dry and normal poops but still down and his bleat isn’t back to normal.
Ive wormed him with Flukasil (prob not right name) and used a smaller syringe. I think last time we used a big one which might have meant he wriggled and didn’t get a full dose?
Anyway he definitely got dosed and it went in today.
But, he is still down periodically and he doesn’t look great. Kind of wobbled over and just kid with his head down not trying to get up, but I got him up and over to the Hay.
Apparently shedding can be problematic/painful I think the Vet said.
So I’ve taken some grass in and he brightened up and ate that.
Is there anything else I can do for him to help him get stronger?
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Time , keep giving fresh grass 3-4 times a day and hard feed such as lamb pellets / coarse mix again small amounts 3-4 times a day , water and hay available all the time , maybe treats occasionally ivy /cabbage leaves / digestive biscuit etc , you need to slowly build up the digestive system , ask your vet in few days if mins / vits would help . Now you know you have fluke on your ground ,talk to your vet for a plan to treat and when you do a fec ask to check for fluke eggs or ask about taking bloods
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Thank you that’s really helpful.
I am always worried about feeding boys course mix after hearing horror stories of infections with wethers :o and being told not to. Farmer I know said rubbish and his vet half a bucket a day. He’s had a bit today. I’ll increase it tomorrow.
How much fresh grass, I did maybe a third of a bucket, not very much and he enjoyed that. Plenty of clover, grasses and broad leaf stuff.
He’s the only one poorly and pasture rotation wise I am a bit stuck at present as I’ve nowhere to move them to. They are in plenty grass though? 9 acres to 14 of them.
We need to get going with some electric fencing so I can manage stuff like this a bit better for grazing. Is topping likely to help or is it because it’s under stocked?
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You will see how much he will eat per feed over the next few days , so long as there is a bit left when you bring the next lot of fresh grass then you know he's got plenty and you can reduce slightly if lots left or increase if non left , the hard feed should say on the bag label if not to be fed to male's . You can maybe work out areas where fluke might be eg open ditches / dips in the ground that hold water / boggy areas and then improve the drainage or fence them off Can't say if you need to top the grass ,normally if the grass starts go to seed then you top to try and keep fresh green leaves , this will not have any effect fluke wise , wet / damp is the problem as this is where the snails live , lots of information about fluke life cycle and treatments
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Just to clarify you said they were mar / apr born cades so you had them young to rear on a bottle so they must have picked up fluke on your ground ?
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Hi
Yes there’s a patch of bare ground under a tree where they shelter and grass that gets waterlogged ground when wet. I’ll have a think as I should be able to manage them doing some rotational grazing a day at a time maybe with hurdles if nothing else.
Yes, bottle fed and cake/hay and then turned out around Mid/late May early June off the top of my head. I weaned them as I’d had one die of bloat and as very new to rearing them, then wanted them out in a field and off milk.
Just been reading about fluke I’ll have to keep reading though as we have deer, rabbits etc that are present periodically too. Hurting my head a bit. Feels impossible!
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Not impossible once you understand your enemy , fluke needs the snails to breed and the snails need wet ground to live , try taking a garden fork to the wet ground stick it in then push as far in as you can get and then wobble to enlarge the holes , pull out and repeat maybe think about improving drainage long term by taping in to any existing drains , ducks will eat the snails
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It’s a massive hillside. Not sure what I can do drainage wise as we get a lot of run off from tops.
Footpath like a small stream today and it runs off into the field at various points. Some are obviously marshy/marshy type grass and water logged others, great field soil and firm. Might need to dig some trenches so it moves rather than sits in the water maybe.
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Just wondering if you can clarify the name of the fluke product used ??
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How do you do the fec test? Follow them until they poop?
There is another way which is only marginally more humiliating....... put on a surgical glove, insert a finger or two where the sun don't shine, then scoop!
BTW, if it is worms these have had, make sure you stay well on top of that for a bit, including next year's lambs, since your pasture is likely to be carrying high number of worms for the next wee while.
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Ok so he is up and eating and happy.
I’ve spoken to the vets and they are happy for me to put them out again…I might bring him in on a night and offer hard feed for a bit too, see how he goes.
I am honestly struggling getting my head round the fluke thing. So just aim for non waterlogged ground generally?
Our grass has been cut so I can put them on that, they were grazing longer grass but he’d already got the fluke.
Do I need to be really worried if only one lamb got it?
Don’t get me wrong it’s been bad enough to manage…just not sure about how I’m going to deal with the grass management side of it.
Perhaps I need to introduce more hedgehogs 😩
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Once you have fluke on your ground you just need to be aware of it at certain times of year. For the sheep I normally use a triclabendazole drench in autumn to kill all stages of fluke, and then a closantel based treatment at lambing to kill adult fluke. For the cattle we house them in autumn so that makes treatment a little easier, we treat 8 weeks or so after housing. That seems to keep things in control here. We’ve had cattle livers condemned at slaughter so know there is fluke here.
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Once you have identified your ground as flukey then you need to treat them accordingly , there is lots of information out there , talk it over with your vets as they are local and understand the area
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I think that’s why I’m struggling with what to treat and when.
He’s been dosed with the narrow spectrum Closantel this time.
My flock have more widely been wormed and fluked with Rycoben.
So, from what you are saying, it would be a good idea to dose my pregnant ewes Dec prior to lambing?
It’s all what you do when. So many variables and when it’s ALL new, this bit feels like a lot. I’m sure once I’ve done it a few times, I learn by doing it seems!
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Most rural vets will have a newsletter of some sort, in which they'll give reminders for fluking etc. That's a better guide than sticking to the identical routine year after year, because the weather conditions can affect the fluke activity. (It isn't just wet = more fluke, sometimes you can have active fluke even in a hottish dryish summer period because it was warm and moist at the end of spring...)
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Have a look at SCOPS treating liver fluke ,it lists the products and their ability to kill fluke . If you are treating for fluke then do everything lambs / ewes and don't forget rams as they are all susceptible to fluke and the products give no further protection beyond time of use
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I’ll treat everyone once I’ve spoke to vet about it and read a bit more SCOPS thanks for signposting.
He’s so much better but still regaining some muscle tone to his front legs and is a bit wobbly but otherwise upright and happy and far better than this time last week.
Cleaned up his back end today, but it’s so bad I may have to wait for his fleece to grow before I properly snip the rest. Just stood and let me and shouted me back when I left him :excited:
He won’t have digestives but did read you can give them carrot and apple which I thought I could cube and put in with some course mix?
He is having 2-3 little handfuls of coarse mix a day and is as of today out on grass.
Thank you everyone for advising kindly and supporting
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Aaand he’s scouring again.
Tail is wet through. Brought him in for some hay obvs with storm coming in and I’ll see how he’s going then.
What else can I do? Presumably it’s either not shifted it properly or he’s picked it up again?
The other ewe lamb is thriving. And eating and drinking alongside him.
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What made the vet say it was fluke? What was the worm egg count - how many eggs per gram for the different types of worms, and how many oocysts per gram for cocci?
I doubt it would have picked up fluke again that quickly. My gut feeling is there’s something else going on, worms, cocci, mineral deficiency, or gut damage from previous cocci or worm infection.
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I think the scouring and weight loss. Plus gums and eyes pale.
I need to get another fecal sample in as I forgot the last one and with him seeming to make such a good recovery…
He was on grass for two days with grain/hay and back to square one!
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Get a poo sample in quick and talk to your vet about internal organ damage and gut bacteria as all the scouring will have depleted it , the wet grass may have caused the scouring :fc:
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i feel your pain about the overwhelming information you think you need to collate to draw up a fluke plan for your property. hopefully you have helpful vets (i dont) I even sent poo samples to the moredun foundation who do free fluke tests as they are a research institute for the disease. They found nothing: BUT that does not mean you do not have a fluke problem! FEC for fluke are pointless, you will likely get a negative egg count (esp this time of year) but it still be adult fluke burrowing through the liver causing problems.
My sheep have grazed this property for 10 years. There was anecdotal evidence of fluke (ie sheep from here having condemned livers at slaughter) but it is not something farmers here treat locally- it is very site specific.
I bought ducks last year: ive still had sheep go down with symptoms of fluke so dont think they are the answer. i began a programme of treatments for my guys to avoid them getting sick before i treat (cos if they have symptoms then their livers are being compromised) but i still get sick sheep: ususally they present as having belly ache, but one ewe has had the very obvious bottle jaw, twice now. They respind to treatement within 48 hours. Thats how i know it was fluke and not something else. Trichlobendazole kills nearly all life stages of the fluke but there is a risk of resistance with over use so only use it if an animal is sick. If you are treating preventatively try to use a drug that targets the life stage most likely to be present- eg closental early in the seasonl, then albendazole.
Also non of my sheep have scours from fluke. And it is recommended not to use a combined fluke and wormer product: Lambs have more fragile liver than adults so probably are affected more, but note adults do not develop resisitance to fluke (they do to worms to a degree)
*hint to get poo samples from pet sheep: leave them to lie down. Whe you go in and disturb them the first thing they tend to do is get up, poo and wee!
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Sent off sample. Testing for parasites.
He is still very skinny. But up, bright and happy. I need him to put weight on now to feel more satisfied.
I’ve put him out to grass as he’s now been dry for a number of days and will monitor it.
Plan is grass during the day and hay at night inside.
So I know he’s getting roughage and just generally not his best and outside and exposed.
He’s been getting small handfuls of coarse grain a few times a day. Lamb nuts/pellets? Didn’t go for digestives as a treat 😄
What else can I do to help get calories in him?
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Cabbage, swede (cut up), slices of apple
But decide what foods you're giving and give them routinely, don't fiddle about with the ration. The fermentation flora are adapted to the food, so giving new / different things can be counterproductive if you're aiming to get max nutritional value from the ration.
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Thanks. He is really scouring again, his back legs are just covered.
I’ll try some of that tomorrow.
Hoping it’s just flushing him out with what the vet have given him 😩
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Also to update the thread…coccidisis!
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And high worm load.
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That would do it. Don’t feed him anything bar forage and nuts (if he’s used to them) for a while. Let him get over the worm and cocci burden before you change the diet. If you have treated the worms and cocci, then he should pick up now on just grass, hay and a few lamb finisher nuts added in gradually.
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Now you know for certain and have treated ,hopefully he will make a recovery
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Yes feel relieved that I know what it is now.
Just want him dry, putting on weight and without a bad backend.
I’ll get some nuts Friday for him and see how we go weather wise up here. Relieved it’s not fluke.
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Just be aware that now you have coccl confirmed you may have to treat every year to stop it early , just a quick dose with an expensive product . It might be good to get poo samples from your other lambs for a FEC just to check
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When we had cocci on the land, the vet recommended not treating too early each year but said it was a fine judgement call as it can kill swiftly. Now I think about it, I wonder whether grazing with a non-susceptible animal would clear the field and be a better option. Thoughts anyone?
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If you can take that pasture out of the grazing rotation for that species it will massively help, but in practical terms that can be very difficult. My land is quite heavy for cocci now as the lambs graze same fields every year, so we control it with a minutes of buckets and strategic drenching when the lambs get overwhelmed.
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While grazing with adult cattle / horses would help if the sheep could be excluded from the ground , probably not practical for most smallholders , adult sheep while not susceptible can be infected and not show symptoms but can spread coccl on the ground , cocci are very tough and can over winter either inside or outside . Taking land out of grazing for hay for a couple of years would help but again not practical for most smallholders
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good to know, thanks shep. We have cattle and ponies so it is practical for us, and we do operate a rather loose rotation. I will start to make more sure that we don't put lambs on anywhere that wasn't last grazed by other-than-sheep, or cropped for hay.
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We can’t currently as just two fields, maybe next year.
I think honestly he’s just been unlucky. Everyone else is fine but he has been very unwell.
Had another look at him and he’s still passing water almost but his tail end doesn’t look as wet as it did 2 days ago.
Left him out today as bright and light but want him inside for a few days with some hay to see if that helps.
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Cocci can cause permanent damage to the gut lining, so he may well be best to fatten and put in the freezer as soon as he’s ready. The others in the group will likely need treating for it too, so I would look into getting that done.
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Thanks.
He’s doing fine, thankfully. The other ewe with h isn’t though.
Dog attack last week her jaw ripped. She can’t chew very well, puncture wounds.
I’m now not even worried about him, it’s her.
Sheep, honestly.
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If she can’t eat then the kindest thing may be to put her down.
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She’s trying, that’s the worst thing.
She looks like she’s had numbing agent and her tongue can’t manage the grass. Fine with coarse grain though.
I’m going to have another look at her as I can’t have her wasting away in front of me.
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Get the vet to look at her, they can advise if she is likely to recover or not, and put her down if needed. Don’t leave it the weekend.
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Had a look at her today, eating grass fine so put her out and she’s grazing almost as fast as she was pre attack.
Let them out for 4 hours to graze and back inside. I’m happy with her eating. No swelling, it just obviously took a day or three.
Regards Cocci lamb. He has put a bit of weight on now and is looking better. He’s still only small though, would you just wait until he’s fat enough?
Not sure I can eat him or part with him. Will he likely just be prone to being ill a lot because of burden?
Incidentally the vets have offered no advice on the land for cocci at all. Nothing. Just the meds and off you go!
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Cocci is a difficult one to manage just on grazing alone- once it’s on your ground you’re likely to have problems unless you move them onto completely clean (never grazed by sheep) pasture every year.
Our fields have a build up of cocci, it’s manageable but I am really on it with egg counts and scouring lambs. A mix of drenches and medicated buckets seems to keep lambs going in the right direction
Your lamb could have internal gut damage if the cocci was very bad, so he may have scour and struggle with digestion. Guess it’s a case of see how he goes.
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Ironically, prior to the sheep coming on....the land had never been grazed by sheep.
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Just to update.
He is doing well and has put on some chunkiness and looks much better.
The question is, do I keep him. And if not, why not? Further issues likely?
He's 1 of only 3 boys (I keep 2 as company for my tup).
Don't fancy eating him tbh. I'd rather pick the larger fatter lamb I am less attached to.
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Cocci could have permanently damaged the gut lining, meaning he is more prone to scour- during summer months this can mean more prone to Flystrike if he is dirty. Other than that I can’t see much reason to not keep him, if that’s what you want to do.
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Thank you. He’s fattening up now and apart from looking a scruff as he’s losing his fleece from being poorly, he is now doing very well. Might just have to lose the big fat lamb that I’m less partial to 🤣