The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on October 05, 2022, 08:06:56 am
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I know we all have our favourites and always sing their praises very loyally, but I need some truthful input here.
Several members of the community here are finding our Shetland x hogget meat too rich for their systems, so I am having to consider changing my breeding practises. But I do not want to give up on what the Shetland x ewes to a Shetland tup gives me, being hardy sheep, generally good feet, generally fairly resistant to fly strike, and, most importantly, utterly hands-free lambing and (almost) hands-off mothering.
I have literally never had to put my hands inside a Shetland ewe who's been put to a Shetland tup, and the single occasion on which I had to assist a lambing of a Shetland x ewe to a Shetland tup, was an out of season (August lambing) fat, aged maiden (not supposed to breed, but our Nigel Ever Ready Golden Balls and his work ethic... ::) :D), and she had the first lamb coming breech.
So I don't want to lose out on that, because I am getting on and we don't have anyone else experienced enough or with enough time and able to make the commitment to take over if our lambing becomes more hands-on.
I also would *really* prefer to stay with outdoor lambing from 2nd week of April onwards, no supplementary (ie., bought-in) feeding if at all possible.
My thought so far...
Could go Mule with maybe a Dorset Down tup, but Mules have too many triplets which can mean needing to help, and may need feeding as some can "milk off their backs".
Same would apply to Lleyn, I think? Our grass here is not fantastic. Lleyns and twins would probably be fine, but probably not triplets, and they do do that, don't they. Also, not at all flystrike resistant in my experience.
Dorset Down? Anyone have them? Have you ever had to help a lambing, or assist with mothering up?
Any of the primitive breeds are out; the meat will be just as strongly flavoured, and they will need 2 summers to reach any size.
Charollais would be succulent, fabulous meat and ready in 6 months, but we can still get some fairly fearsome weather early April and some Charollais lambs can be quite bare. Also they can be a bit prone to sunburn as their skins are so thin.
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Cheviot is a traditional cross with shetland and would maintain the desired qualities but may be hard to source . Roussin is a good breed for all the things you want
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Could you slaughter earlier .... lamb not hogget? I have one customer who loves our lamb but doesnt like the hogget.
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Could you slaughter earlier .... lamb not hogget? I have one customer who loves our lamb but doesnt like the hogget.
I am not sure whether it's the age or the breed, or both. But our Shetland x x Shetlands aren't any size at 6 months, and are a pretty decent size at 18 months. So we'd have to change something.
My experience of Cheviots is the lambs off the hills sold at weaning at Longtown in August, which are the size of bunny rabbits at that point but make superb big carcasses by the New Year / early spring, and can do it on grass and hay only.
We need lambs born outdoors mid-April, ewes and lambs on grass only, lambs ready for the off end October. I don't mind them not being butcher's lambs at that point, but I'd want more than 13 or 14 kgs of meat at that stage, which is what we'd expect off the Shetlands. It feels like a waste of effort to send them off half-sized, although if it turns out no-one except me and one other really like the matured meat, i guess it's an even bigger waste to keep them another year! lol
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I have Dorset Downs - pure bred - I lend a tup to a friend with Shetland and poll Dorset crosses. Both pure and the crosses very rarely have any problems- Dorset Downs themselves don’t often have triplets. They are fast growing and I recon would easily get to your preferred weight by the end of October or before .. they taste good, both of us have a waiting list.. I keep any males entire and so long as they are away from any ladies don’t seem to tant at all. They don’t seem to have strong taste as hogget or mutton either.
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Good to know, thanks [member=142960]Twotwo[/member]. I had neighbours with DDs in Cumbria, and a Rare Breeds Farm I used to help out on years ago, near Bath, had 2 commercial flocks, both DDs. (One spring lambing, one autumn.) But I wasn't closely involved with any of those flocks so couldn't vouch for whether or not there'd be a few dystocias. They were all outdoor lambing, I think. I don't recall seeing much in the way of pet lambs but again, wasn't closely enough involved to be sure there were no mothering issues. So I was wanting to hear some personal experiences of DDs, so thanks again!
Thinking about it, I did eat lamb from the Cumbrian flock, so I do know it's good, but not strong, tasting.
Their fleeces are good for spinning and sheepskins too, so that's a bonus :)
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As you know, we bred Coloured Ryelands for years - pure, didn't castrate the tuplambs. They'd be away, off grass, in October at 20-25kg DW.
Last couple of years,we bought a few pure Shetlands and the Shetland x Ryeland lambs were excellent. Tup lambs equal to the PB Ryeland and really nice ewe lambs /gimmers for breeding. Our shearer was very impressed by the gimmers when he sheared them.
Lamb was excellent.
Ryelands were good mothers; never had one reject a lamb but Icouldn't in all honesty say that lambing was effortless. The Shetlands, on the other hand, spat out Ryeland x lambs that fairly bounced.
So much choice :eyelashes:
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I know we all have our favourites and always sing their praises very loyally, but I need some truthful input here.
Several members of the community here are finding our Shetland x hogget meat too rich for their systems, so I am having to consider changing my breeding practises. But I do not want to give up on what the Shetland x ewes to a Shetland tup gives me, being hardy sheep, generally good feet, generally fairly resistant to fly strike, and, most importantly, utterly hands-free lambing and (almost) hands-off mothering.
When I first read that, i actually thought "tell them to do without then!" Especially if you are doing the work re the sheep.
But somehow I don't think that you would want to do that.
I only have Climbme left from Shetlands Mk2 and she is half Dorset Down. A few years ago, the spring lamb price dropped, my first batch had gone off, £100+ per head, but due to Climbme & Hoity Toity being smaller mums, their lambs weren't ready and I didn't like the thought of only getting £60 a head, so I thought sod it and had them done.
Haven't taken anything to hogg again! They lambed January but they weren't at 37kg for auction before the price dropped.
I have bought in Shetlands again (Mk3) and am going to breed pure (if I can get a tup), but I am also aware that I might not be able to flog the lambs, so have told mum we'll eat the boys (I've always found the females always seem to sell! Saying that, bet they'll all lamb boys!)
I have often said I like the Dorset Down and DD off Shetlands, you can kill sooner, 12 months or less.
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Fab input, thanks [member=194324]PipKelpy[/member] !
Several members of the community here are finding our Shetland x hogget meat too rich for their systems, so I am having to consider changing my breeding practises. But I do not want to give up on what the Shetland x ewes to a Shetland tup gives me, being hardy sheep, generally good feet, generally fairly resistant to fly strike, and, most importantly, utterly hands-free lambing and (almost) hands-off mothering.
I have literally never had to put my hands inside a Shetland ewe who's been put to a Shetland tup, and the single occasion on which I had to assist a lambing of a Shetland x ewe to a Shetland tup, was an out of season (August lambing) fat, aged maiden (not supposed to breed, but our Nigel Ever Ready Golden Balls and his work ethic... ::) :D), and she had the first lamb coming breech.
So I don't want to lose out on that, because I am getting on and we don't have anyone else experienced enough or with enough time and able to make the commitment to take over if our lambing becomes more hands-on.
When I first read that, i actually thought "tell them to do without then!" Especially if you are doing the work re the sheep.
But somehow I don't think that you would want to do that.
None of us does nothing here, quite the reverse. Everyone is always busy and wishing they had more time / energy to help more with things others are doing. So it's not like I lamb and everyone else sits at home watching telly with their feet up :D
Usually Margot will do or organise any checks I want her to so I can have a bit of time at home (I mostly stay in my teeny tiny caravan in the lambing field during lambing.) She and Kathy generally make sure there's a supper for me if I haven't had time to, or don't want to, do one myself. Any number of people will fetch me more gas if I run out, meds from the vets if we need anything, help with moving sheep or humping anything that needs humped, etc etc. And we are never short of willing hands (of all sizes ;)) if we have any lambs needing bottles.
There are now 3 others, younger than me, who willingly do all the hard work if we need any dagging, whenever in the year that falls, and are good and careful enough at it that I will happily leave them to it.
But with a small flock, tupping only 5 or 6 ewes each year, hardly ever any lambing issues at all and almost never any mothering or rearing issues except sometimes needing to support a first timer while she and her lamb get used to it all, it's never going to be possible for the others here to become anywhere near as experienced as me or Margot. So while I am able and still enjoy it, I am very happy to be #1 lambing shepherd :). But only if we can maintain a problem-free flock to a large extent.
It's less about not wanting the work - I actually miss physically lambing several ewes every year, and managing lots of mothering issues and pet lambs, as I did all the time I was farming hundreds of lambers each year up north! - but I just get so much stress and heartache when the ewe is struggling with physical or environmental factors, feeling that I should be doing a better job providing the right environment and conditions for her.
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I know nothing about them, but what about Wiltshire Horns? Meant to be easy lambing, should finish a bit quicker than shetlands, shedding too. Or Exlana if you don’t want the horns? They are an extensive breed, and should be fairly hands off if you buy the right ones?
Like you say Lleyns are too prolific, although if on poorer ground that should limit lamb numbers a bit.
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Like you say Lleyns are too prolific, although if on poorer ground that should limit lamb numbers a bit.
I suspect it would limit lambs reared but not perhaps lambs born. Which is completely the opposite effect of what I want!
But it's got me thinking... What I would really like is a polled sheep that has singles. I don't mind breeding more ewes to get the number of lambs we want, in fact I would prefer it.
So... another question is, which breed has the lowest lambing percentage?
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We do the opposite of flushing anyway, but thems as wants triplets tends to has triplets anyways ::)
So we don't flush, we tup on moderate ground, then we mineral after tupping has finished, and look after them so they do a good job with the eggs that implanted.
And a tendency to have triplets is a black mark when I am assessing who will breed. Having triplets and not being able to rear them on grass is a One Strike and You Are Out offence, with a black mark on all your daughters.
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And a tendency to have triplets is a black mark when I am assessing who will breed. Having triplets and not being able to rear them on grass is a One Strike and You Are Out offence, with a black mark on all your daughters.
Except I am keeping two of Lessa's last daughters, 'cos Lessa has never ever failed to rear her triplets if asked, although we have several times topped up the lambs for the first few weeks if we're short of grass. But that's hardly a chore, everyone loves helping and as it's topping up lambs which are on Mum, it's not life or death, not time-critical, etc, so is a fab job for relatively inexperienced people, and children, to help with.
But I personally would still prefer no triplets and more singles.
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Have to agree with the comment about Coloured Ryelands! Love the sheep and they are good mums, but they really do want you to share the experience and make a hell of a racket!
In my limited experience, getting singles is as much about grazing quality as breed, keep 'em hungry and you get singles (or just as likely a pair of weak twins which is not exactly what you want. There seems to be a lot os different breeds being suggested, but I would strongly suggest Herdwicks.
Outdoors lambing - Tick (we lamb inside for our convenience but they hate it and will disappear into a corner behind a bale to lamb and then reappear with it without you getting the chance to intervene!)
Hardy - Double Tick - if they can survive a winter on the Cumbrian fells they can survive anything!
Fast Maturing - OK - they can be on good grass but I don't think any hill/primitive breed is going to excel at this. We can usually clear all our excess Herdwick lambs by January which isn't too bad.
Meat quality - Tick - excellent
Shearing hassle - minimal - mine frequently self shed and shearing is easy since the difficult bits (head, legs etc) are clean.
Flystrike - Again OK - We use Clik extra and are generally OK. Where the flies start early for some reason they tend to hit above the tail, which is easy to spot and the clean out.
Economics - Tick. If you want top quality show ewes and rams you will pay a lot, but draft ewes (generally 2-4 years old after being retired from the fells are readily available for well under £100 each and will produce another 3 to 4 crops of twins for you on lower ground. Check out the annual sales at Cockermouth (8000 ewes this October!) and Broughton (a mere 1500 or so ewes this year!) - lots of decent ewes (but not the show quality ones) for under £70
Handling - OK. Straight off the fell they are a nightmare (just like any hill sheep), but they soon mlearn what a bucket contains and from that point on they may burrow under the fence to the next field, but they will soon return when the bucket appears!! Once they get to know you they will come across (at the gallop!) for a chin rub and a cuddle!
And finally there is the CUTE FACTOR - I defy you not to smile when you see one!!
Just my 2p worth - but do give them a consideration
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Thanks for your thoughts, [member=24841]steve_pr[/member].
I used to farm in Cumbria but am in North Cornwall now. However, Herdwick, Swaledale and crosses thereof are all over Bodmin Moor, and there are Herdwicks over the road from me.
Outdoor lambing, hands off, mostly singles, tick indeed. Long-lived too.
I thought Herdies wouldn't be very big at 6 months? They are usually overwintered, no?
If they need flystrike prevention, that would be an issue. We can't use Clik or anything like it. (We try to follow organic rules as far as possible, although we aren't certified.) We use Molecto (local agri merchant version of Crovect) on any at risk lambs only if we feel it's a particularly high risk time, but for the most part between breeding, management, and vigilance, we do not use chemicals for flies at all.
Plus, we like to use the fleece here :spin: :knit:, and we'd need to cross a Herdie a lot of times to get to fleece we'd want to use... :/ (The Zwartbles were nasty enough. Bearable after 1 cross to the Shetland but not really nice till third generation. You can get Zs with nice fleeces, I know, but ours did not have such.)
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If they need flystrike prevention, that would be an issue. We can't use Clik or anything like it. (We try to follow organic rules as far as possible, although we aren't certified.) We use Molecto (local agri merchant version of Crovect) on any at risk lambs only if we feel it's a particularly high risk time, but for the most part between breeding, management, and vigilance, we do not use chemicals for flies at all.
The ones which have predominantly Shetland and Manx blood rarely have any problems.
The sheep with some Wensleydale in 'em, and a couple of lines which have gorgeous fleece and some Blue-faced Leicester in the mix do have the occasional incident, but only usually if we are tardy with dagging.
Zwartbles and descendents are either 100% immune or get struck very badly very quickly; we cull lines which get struck for no reason and are about to lose the last of our Zwartbles blood, sadly. (Not for that reason, this one is going for terrible mothering, despite her own mum having been an excellent sheep in every respect.)
We cull anyone who has flystrike for no good reason, and if we get two such incidents in a line will be unlikely to keep any others from that line for breeding either. The fleece from the ones with Wensleydale in the mix is so sumptuous that we may bend that rule a leeetle bit for them... ;) :spin: :knit: :hugsheep:
We've only had one of the Shetland type badly struck for no apparent reason, she was 1/8 BFL. She survived with good nursing, and went off fat, and none of her brothers or sisters has had a problem since (so far... :fc:) so we keep breeding from the mother and have kept a later sister for breeding.
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Fair enough! I think if you keep them on a fell then you would need to overwinter, but on even half decent grass they can put the weight on pretty well. Ours lamb late, usually mid April since the ram isn't even remotely interested until the end of October (if you were up in Cumbria you would know this all too well!). Having said that mine are currently mid 20's to over 30kg (apart from the usual set of mini herdwicks that seem to prefer to stay small since that means they can squeeze through the smallest gap!). Given that a lot of my neighbours have been having difficulty getting lambs to fatten this year I can luve with that performance.
The fleece is a problem, but I rather feel that a hardy hill sheep with a beautiful soft fleece is probably a bit of an oxymoron! A lot of the attention these days is on easycare sheep emanating from the Wiltshire Horns but that is not going to get you any fleece at all, apart from the bits they rub off on the fence!
Regarding the flystrike issue, perhaps I overstated the issue. We have Coloured Ryelands (where flystrike is a problem), Wiltshire Horns (no problem apart from the older rams where the horns get close to their cheeks) and the Herdwicks. I hate picking maggots out of sheep, so we take the rather blunt prevention route on them all. If you keep a close eye on them (and a bit of Molecto at danger times) I would say you would be OK with the Herdwicks. This year we only had a few cases and the Clik prevented the larvae from developing anyway so they tended to be in the poo rather than the flesh. The nature of the fleece seems to prevent the flies getting down to the skin (compared to the Coloureds where they burrow under the fleece and do a whole load of damage before you ever get to see anything).
I guess the real answer is there is no perfect sheep breed, you just get the best compromise you can and learn to live with the downsides!
Good luck on the hunt anyway!