The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: PK on September 19, 2022, 08:00:44 pm
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Three cases a stone's throw (from the 10k surveillance zones) from us in the last couple of days in West Suffolk, and other live cases elsewhere in the UK. I note that there are big concerns in the Netherlands (where they have actually had fewer cases compared to the UK) and their Minister of Agriculture has resigned over the issue. Poultry producers are up in arms with the proposal to ban commercial poultry units near open expanses of water. The Netherlands has large areas of open expanses of water. There is a concern about the ability of the virus to enter commercial units despite strict biosecurity measures. It seems it doesn't take much for this to happen. Given the regular prevalence of cases in the UK through the summer, and fact that the number of incidents is already on the rise during September, I wonder if there will be a change in policy and a lockdown avoided and relying instead on swift targeting of affected localities. Just a thought. We have actually beefed up our poultry arrangements in anticipation of a lockdown so that the winter will be more pleasant for the birds and for us.
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PK - We are currently in a blue prevention zone courtesy of an infected farm a mile over the fields from us. I am awaiting a visit from the APHA vet but having been told a fortnight ago they would come have not heard anything yet. But was told when speaking to APHA office no need to put birds inside (phew) but just carry on and keep observing health and minimise contact with wild birds.
Just looking again at the reports about recent outbreaks it appears that only "infected" birds are being culled which raises the hope that they won't blanket cull everything on the premises should they find a case.
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I think new cases have continued steadily throughout the summer. The first wild geese started flying over us here in south central Scotland just a few days ago, returning to their winter grounds on the west coast.
I am wondering what is in the minds of the powers that be regarding lock down this winter. It really does seem pointless unless there is evidence that isolating domestic birds has reduced the actual numbers of incidences of diseased flocks. There have been reports of huge numbers of wild birds dying on reserves, so is AI now endemic, that is the question?
Does anyone have an inside view of the current thinking of how this winter will be handled?
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I had the APHA vet visit this morning. To partly answer your question FW I think chances are high we will all be in lockdown again this winter, if not before. I am supposed to be in lockdown now given we are in a blue protection zone but as I (probably rather stridently) pointed out, it is not practical nor humane to lock up a flock of waterfowl just in case a sparrow sh*ts on them!
Having swabbed each goose and duck now have to wait 3 days. If I don't hear by then all will be well, and if not they will be in touch. Chickens and turkeys were just observed at as symptoms are more obvious in those if they have it, and all mine appeared to be well. All waterfowl are swabbed as can be asymptomatic carriers.
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I totally agree with you [member=206414]Richmond[/member] about waterfowl. We have a small number of grazers, geese.....
A little birdie told me that the wild fowl charities are asking for a complete lockdown of domestic poultry to prevent spread to wildfowl. I thought it went the other way and the wild birds were bringing it here from further north? Do they mean all year round I wonder?
Oh well, we had better get our winter arrangements in place because I really don't want my hens in the polytunnel this winter - they destroyed every one of our winter brassicas last year and the lockdown went on for so long that I couldn't get my early crops started.
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I think we need to brace ourselves for an early lockdown - my guess is end of October onwards. Apparently the authorities are concerned that the virus will mutate and start to infect humans and until they find a solution we (the poultry keepers) need to minimise potential exposure both to the birds and ourselves. They are fearing a Covid type epidemic again.
I have to say the whole thing is totally disheartening. If we really must shut our birds in for most of the year (and we cant rule out the fact that it might become permanent) then what is the point of keeping poultry at all? I refuse to keep birds under those conditions. My geese have been so excited over the new grass that's sprouted since we had a bit of rain, having had 2 whole months without, and now I am being told to lock them in the stable. It's heartbreaking.
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All poultry keepers should have their 'flu vaccinations. I get one routinely for being old and decrepit but we should all have one to reduce the risk of mutations happening from human to birds. Shouldn't we also be vaccinating birds against avian influenza to prevent zoonotic mutations?
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I really don’t see how this will end unless it’s just accepted that it’s endemic and adopt a Covid stance - it’s here get on with it…………
Some things are just beyond a joke though. Two and a half tonnes of grain going into a wildfowl nature reserve in East Anglia to feed/attract the wildfowl and then having to lock your own back yard flock up - doesn’t sit well with me.
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The latest here is all of Norfolk, Suffolk and a large part of Essex is now designated a Prevention Zone area as of 12 noon today. A range of restrictions just falling short of a requirement to house poultry and captive birds. It looks like also included is a requirement to keep a record of any egg sales and to whom.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63048231
I expect this is it for the winter now. Lockdown through to next May. I am going to start culling birds as I cannot physically keep them all in or under cover. I expect ultimately I may only keep tiny bantams which can be kept fairly easily in covered pens. But it's no life for them. Like being told to stay in a one bedroom flat for the rest of your life.
I have a second inspection looming next week. Despite being clear from the last inspection they want to come back again. :(
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Surely they only know about people who have registered with APHA/DEFRA as they have more than 50 birds.... can't see them combing the countryside (and cities) to check every house for poultry... and keeping records of who you sell eggs to... what next???? Movement licences for poultry? Ear tagging with EID...
The stupidest bit is though that all poultry was banned from agri shows this summer... except pigeons! Now go figure that!!!
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APHA only have a record of registered keepers but the local councils have apparently been tasked with checking to see how many people are keeping smaller numbers of poultry in their gardens via door to door visits.
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We have never kept 50 birds but we get the APHA AI updates therefore they know we keep poultry. That comes with the annual livestock survey returns we do.
It seems there are a lot of people on allotments who keep a few hens but know nothing of the poultry rules. Perhaps they need to do an allotment site recce too.....
Now is the season for the arrival of migratory waterfowl so I expect the lockdown will be nationwide soon enough.
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APHA only have a record of registered keepers but the local councils have apparently been tasked with checking to see how many people are keeping smaller numbers of poultry in their gardens via door to door visits.
Oh yeah.... when the local council is trying to work out how to heat the schools, how to reduce essential council services like education, waste collection etc to the barest minimum (incl staff numbers) they have the resources to send people house to house and ask if thwey keep a few hens.... REALLY?
I don't mean to be flippant to you Richmond, but that is almost funny...
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Everybody round here knows I have a few hens so the council will probably already know. Because I only have four it's easy to pen mine undercover - they sometimes are anyway if the weather is really bad, or just now when they have no feathers. Damn things (Wyandottes) are a waste of time - posh birds that only lay when they feel like it :innocent: But my daughter says " oh but they're pretty, Mum" :excited: :eyelashes: :roflanim:
Wish I'd got rescues, but I was given these as a moving in gift when I gave away all my previous ducks and rehomed hens to who I thought was a friend. From what I've heard they were probably all eaten :'( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63059558
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I noticed there is a concentration in Attleborough. A couple of years ago I saw the poultry processing factory there that my Dad owned in the '60s featured as a centre of infection. Hmm. I used to get up at 0415 to help load turkeys to arrive at Attleborough for 0700, before getting the bus to school. Being Norfolk, there were many farmers' daughters at my school so perhaps no one noticed the deep litter whiff :innocent:
I agree that we should be vaccinating all poultry and birds in zoos and wildfowl centres as lockdowns have simply not worked. Now for DEFRA to accept that.
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I agree that we should be vaccinating all poultry and birds in zoos and wildfowl centres as lockdowns have simply not worked. Now for DEFRA to accept that.
Until the efficacy of the vaccine has been proven and more importantly that vaccinated birds cannot infect non-vaccinated ones it seems non-viable. And given the (monetary) value of a hen/turkey is really quite low (and egg/broiler/turkey producers' margins concequently too) it won't happen soon because the economics don't stack up.
DEFRA hasn't even accepted the currently available bTB vaccine, because you cannot tell vaccinated animals from infected ones, so what chance has a chicken/broiler that sells for 2 quid after 7 weeks of life in a massive shed...
Also I firmly believe we shouldn't be interfering with the natural world by vaccinating wild birds either - it will just have to run it's course. As sad as seeing loads of dead birds around, this is nature's way of re-calibrating equilibria, the virus will over time weaken and birds will become immune to it. And we as humans should not decide to interfere in everything just because we want to eat far too many eggs and chicken meat.
But that's just me...
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All poultry keepers should have their 'flu vaccinations. I get one routinely for being old and decrepit but we should all have one to reduce the risk of mutations happening from human to birds. Shouldn't we also be vaccinating birds against avian influenza to prevent zoonotic mutations?
Hi Fleecewife, always a good idea to get the flu vaccine, old and decrepit or not :raining:. However - it's not going to help against any nasty bird flu mutation - the curent bird flu strain and the (human) vaccine strain are too different. There is a good news, though - even after mutation, the bird flu strain is very unlikely to cause any human health problem. As for the birds, though..... :gloomy:
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All poultry keepers should have their 'flu vaccinations. I get one routinely for being old and decrepit but we should all have one to reduce the risk of mutations happening from human to birds. Shouldn't we also be vaccinating birds against avian influenza to prevent zoonotic mutations?
Hi Fleecewife, always a good idea to get the flu vaccine, old and decrepit or not :raining:. However - it's not going to help against any nasty bird flu mutation - the curent bird flu strain and the (human) vaccine strain are too different. There is a good news, though - even after mutation, the bird flu strain is very unlikely to cause any human health problem. As for the birds, though..... :gloomy:
That's not what the vet implied when he inspected our birds. He told me the authorities were very concerned about it mutating into a form that would affect humans similarly to Covid. They were also concerned about it affecting pigs. He told me we shouldn't be eating our eggs or chicken just in case any were infected as we were putting our health at risk! Needless to say I haven't been following that advice - what a waste of good eggs!
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Hi all,
Richmond, that is very interesting and it probably is right to be cautious. However, I don't think that this is the offical line: The vast majority of human cases [which are very few!] have reported contact with poultry and there is no reported evidence of sustained human-to-human transmission. No major changes have been detected in recently characterised viruses from human cases.
(see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/risk-assessment-of-avian-influenza-ah5n1/risk-assessment-of-avian-influenza-ah5n1-third-update)/.
Good old NHS also states that: You can't catch bird flu through eating fully cooked poultry or eggs, even in areas with an outbreak of bird flu
(https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/bird-flu/)
Enjoy your (boiled) eggs, don't breath when collecting....
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All poultry keepers should have their 'flu vaccinations. I get one routinely for being old and decrepit but we should all have one to reduce the risk of mutations happening from human to birds. Shouldn't we also be vaccinating birds against avian influenza to prevent zoonotic mutations?
Hi Fleecewife, always a good idea to get the flu vaccine, old and decrepit or not :raining: . However - it's not going to help against any nasty bird flu mutation - the curent bird flu strain and the (human) vaccine strain are too different. There is a good news, though - even after mutation, the bird flu strain is very unlikely to cause any human health problem. As for the birds, though..... :gloomy:
There is also the other option: that human influenza gets picked up by birds, captive and wild, it mutates and comes back to us in a very much more virulent form.
We cannot know just how mutations in diseases will go. Most will not be viable but it only takes one successful mutation to cross the species barrier, where it will be free to mutate away happily unchallenged, and we have another pandemic. There will be more pandemics because our world is so overcrowded, we just need to try our hardest to prevent successful mutations catching hold. This is the point of vaccinating poultry, wildfowl and humans [member=3211]Anke[/member] , not finance. If you lower the incidence of disease in a population then it has fewer opportunities to infect others and to cross species barriers. The same principle holds for other livestock such as swine, cattle, also pets. Everyone who keeps pets and animals should do their best not to expose their animals to human disease and our best way to achieve this is to be vaccinated against any disease for which a vaccine is available. In many countries owners come into very close contact with their animals and think nothing of sneezing, coughing, spitting near them. This is how diseases cross the species barrier.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-63121931
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Just had my second inspection. Usual routine - observing turkeys and chickens, and swabbing all waterfowl.
The blue protection zone round us won't be revoked till at least December, but by then the whole country will be in full lockdown anyway. It's coming soon apparently - be warned folks. And could be indefinite. :(
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Mandatory housing measures for all poultry and captive birds in Norfolk, Suffolk and parts of Essex are to be introduced from 00:01 on 12 October 2022, following a decision by the United Kingdom’s Chief Veterinary Officer.
The housing order legally requires all bird keepers in these hotspots to keep their birds indoors and to follow stringent biosecurity measures to help protect their flocks from the disease, regardless of type or size. Bird keepers are advised to consult the interactive map to check if they are impacted and should then read the regional AIPZ with housing measure declaration which sets out the requirements in Norfolk, Suffolk and parts of Essex.
And the vet said to me if not in an actual building then the only type of acceptable covering on pens is a waterproof covering eg corrugated plastic. Mesh or net or chicken wire is NOT acceptable. My chicks are all in weld mesh pens but these apparently aren't good enough. The outlay to reroof everything is going to be awful. We are starting to cull some of our birds now as physically cant get them all under cover.
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It doesn't appear that the visiting vet is correct. The housing order schedule states that a fully netted run is acceptable (maximum gauge 25mm) but food and water is required to kept indoors.
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another option is to set your birds free, since they can and do do nothing about wild birds.
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I asked the vet why the gamekeeper can legally release 2000 pheasants a short distance from us and yet we have to shut all our birds up. He just shrugged and said " different rules".
And PK, I did question the roofing situation but the vet said it has to be waterproof. We can't use tarpaulins here - too windy - which only really leaves the corrugated plastic option for outdoor pens, which isn't durable long term, or stuffing all the birds in a stable (not doing that).
Anyway, surely the very act of shutting birds inside contravenes one of the Five Freedom rules, the one that says they should have freedom to express natural behaviour? Geese can't graze in a stable!
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There are FOUR new confirmed cases today, not just in East Anglia but all over England.
The authorities really do need a rethink of tactics.
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I have just sent an e:mail to Mark Spencer, the new Farming Minister, ([email protected]) pointing out that the 11-month ban on poultry sales is having a disastrous effect on rare breeds, as there's nowhere to reliably sell surplus stock or inspect a selection of new genetics to prevent inbreeding depression. I will let you know the response but recommend as many folks as possible doing this. I didn't breed in 2020 or '21 but had to this year as the birds were laying less, getting more likely to succumb to bad weather and eggshells were getting thinner. I would normally take the surplus cockerels to market one by one and spread their genetics through other breeding flocks, but I somehow don't think either Mark Spencer or Christine Middlemiss will be offering to help me cull them.
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if he replies, this offers more grist for your mill
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/06/bird-flu-an-urgent-warning-to-move-away-from-factory-farming
the rules should be different for backyard operations with any non-commercial breeds, as they are for game and the handful of breeds and holdings registered as rare with defra. It is crass idiocy to impose the same rules on us as on factory farms. They can't recreate genes by fiat.
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Have either of you [member=27063]Marches Farmer[/member] and [member=168910]Perris[/member] been in contact with the RBST? I have fallen out with them about something else but in response to F&M years ago they set up the Rare Breeds Gene Bank for sheep, cattle and horses, collecting semen from random livestock specimens at great expense (each sheep for example had to go to a collection centre for a month!. Many rare breeds of poultry come under the banner of the RBST so rather than/as well as fighting on your own you could get the weight of the RBST behind you.
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thanks [member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] but I am more interested in preserving the lives of living birds and allowing natural immunity to develop than in contributing a handful of birds' dna to a gene bank, which is a sort of biological museum. Nice idea, but I think evolution is better, in theory and definitely in practice.
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I've been a member of RBST for decades and contacted the CEO a couple of times on the subject this year. I don't doubt they're doing their best but "official channels" always make me suspect the memo is sitting in the Pending tray of a junior clerk somewhere in Whitehall. Knowing the gene bank problems with collecting unrelated genetics for cattle, sheep and pigs I doubt there would be much appetite for relatively low value (in commercial terms) poultry.
Sometimes you have to shout to be heard - with four more outbreaks today I think this may one of those times.
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I've been a member of RBST for decades and contacted the CEO a couple of times on the subject this year. I don't doubt they're doing their best but "official channels" always make me suspect the memo is sitting in the Pending tray of a junior clerk somewhere in Whitehall. Knowing the gene bank problems with collecting unrelated genetics for cattle, sheep and pigs I doubt there would be much appetite for relatively low value (in commercial terms) poultry.
Sometimes you have to shout to be heard - with four more outbreaks today I think this may one of those times.
The CEO? If you're over 50, don't hold your breath waiting for action from someone who dismisses older folk as 'unwanted on journey'.