The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on July 01, 2022, 06:29:10 pm
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I think my Dot must have the world's most discerning palette.
She has what is almost certainly a tumour on her elbow. She's 14, so neither the vet nor I are keen to put her through what would be a very complicated surgery, and no guarantees of what time she would have left afterwards.
Apart from the tumour, she is in excellent health, and if we can manage the pain well, she should have a good few months of good quality life left to enjoy.
But, getting the meds *into* her is taxing me. She should be having co-codamol twice a day, tramadol three times a day and Metacam once a day. The Metacam is fine, I can squirt that on her breakfast and she eats up with no problem.
The other two are white tablets. I have tried and given up putting them in her throat, she is a master at bringing them back up and is now fighting me when I try to open her mouth. Fights with my best pal 5 times a day, eroding her trust in me, is not the happy last few months I was hoping for and is breaking both our hearts, so I've stopped trying to medicate her that way.
So it's crushing them up and mixing with her food. But she can clearly detect them and is not enjoying her food nor finishing it (in fact mostly now she is not even eating it, unless I dish her up totally fresh, clean food) - and her twice daily meals were one of her top three pleasures.
"Hide it in a chunk of meat" won't work : she can detect the smallest lump of tablet, and will mess around with a mouthful of Chappie (her favourite tinned food), spitting out all the bits with white powder in them.
It is literally life and death, but we are only looking at a few more months, or maybe even only weeks anyway, so it is absolutely not worth making her miserable to get the meds into her.
Any bright ideas, anyone?
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For the avoidance of doubt, if she is in pain which can't be managed and/or is not enjoying her life, then she will be painlessly put to sleep in my arms. I have told the vet emphatically that we are treat her for *her* benefit, not for mine - I can and will get over it when she goes, and will not prolong her life to defer that pain for myself.
But, when the leg doesn't hurt, she still loves her dinner, loves to see me, loves her walks, loves to meet other dogs, and if she is feeling really fit, loves to play her incomprehensible games that only she understands. So if the pain can be managed, she will really enjoy her last few months - and yes, so will I.
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I sympathise. Brittanys are working dogs like Collies. Their nose and taste buds are their livelihood.
I've had success with liver pate, primula cheese and other strong flavoured things. Worth a try if you haven't used them yet
Good luck,
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Thanks Annie, I will add them to the list - chicken gravy, tinned pilchards in tomato sauce... I am burning through the tablets but getting no medication into her as yet...
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Can she catch food if you throw it to her? I used to play a game with my old dog when he needed tablets - I'd chop up chunks of cheese and Frankfurter sausage and hide the tablet in one piece. Then throw them one at a time, an unmedicated one first, and let him catch them. By the time I chucked the medicated one he was swallowing them whole in excitement.
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Haha, she never swallows anything whole once she knows there are pills in the offing - and I have to give her 5 half pills each day :o
I don't really think it's viable, just thought I had to ask, just in case...
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Most meds come in liquid form as well as pill, especially the human ones such as Tramadol and cocodamol. Ask your vet if she can try those and mix with something very strong smelling. Some dog-specific meds come in tasty preparations so perhaps your vet can change the actual med, just so she gets some pain relief ? Dogs watch their owner with laser eyes so she will see you preparing any tricks if you do it where she can see. Similarly if she can hear you doing it then she'll be onto you.
I so understand your dilemma, having lost 3 older dogs recently, poor Dot.
I think Silkwoodzwartbles is close to the mark with a selection of treated and untreated treats! Sophie is easy as pie because she will swallow anything, but Brodie the pup is wiley. I tend to use a small cube of mature cheddar with the pill pushed into the middle. I give one untainted cube, followed by the tainted one then have a third (or better still a piece of ham) hovering just out of reach so the pill has gone down in the excitement of wanting the next one. But if Dot won't swallow anything whole then that isn't going to work. You could try giving her something she will like several times a day for several days before putting a pill in it, maybe sardines.
I'm sure you know that Dot will pick up on your emotions so if you are getting upset about giving her the pills your anxiety will show before you ever get as far as the kitchen or wherever to do the deed, so somehow you have to turn it into a happy play event.
If you have to take the decision that nothing is working and it's time to end it, then make her last few days extra happy with no pills, nothing she doesn't want to do, lots of play - for you as well as her :hug: :hug: :hug: .
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Thanks all for the ideas - and the understanding.
Good idea about a last few happy pill-free days, Juliet, but unfortunately they won't be happy and she won't be playing if she doesn't get any pain relief (and more than just the easy-to-administer Metacam.)
Anyways, I got some cocodamol down her twice today, the morning one hidden inside one of a series of "whole smelly dried small fish" treats (given alongside Jilly getting the same, so Dot would be in danger of losing any treat she dropped, making her slightly less discerning) and the second in one of four pieces of freshly-roasted fantastic organic happy Hampshire pig sausages scattered on top of her favourite dinner (pieces of roast chicken and skin.) She did actually detect it the first time she picked up that piece of sausage, and spat that piece on the floor, but I retrieved and rewrapped it and snuck it back in her bowl, and it went straight down the second time. (*)
The tramadol hidden in another "whole smelly dried small fish" treat was detected before the treat was even in her mouth, despite being totally encased within the fish's gullet, so it must have a very pungent smell to her, and it clearly tastes awful. She wouldn't even eat the section of the fish where the tablet had been after I removed it, even with Jilly hovering nearby. So I put on my big girl pants and managed to put the tablet right on the back of her tongue (first time I have ever managed that with this dog) and got it down her.
She was still limping but happier and running, wanting to play with Jilly, on the afternoon walk, so it is clear that the pain meds cocktail will work, for a while at least.
I have a variety of things to use as treats on her feed to hide the cocodamol in, so I am hopeful that I will be able to get those down her without too much bother henceforth. :fc:
I have ordered some "pill pockets" to try, which will be there by Weds. The pill gets completely encased in a tasty treat, apparently. I have my doubts even they will work with the tramadol, so I also bought a pill gun. I figure pill gun, do it quick, then a piece of sausage (unmedicated); hopefully she will accept the indignity of being coerced to take the terrible pill in the light of the yummy sausage which follows it. :fc:
And I will call the vet to see if there are any other ways the tramadol could be presented - a liquid to mix in a strong chicken gravy (her favourite gravy) served with half a tin of Chappie might just work.
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(*) Re: Dot eating the piece of sausage with the pill in it the second time... Did she think there would only be one pill and she'd spat it out so now she was safe? :thinking: I had a cat once, Brendon, who always left one single piece of meat in his bowl, after he had found a pill concealed in a piece of meat on one occasion. You could get him to eat that piece in another meal, so I reckoned he must figure, as he reached the last piece, that since he hadn't found the pill yet, it must be in that last piece. ::)
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Hope your persistance pays off Sally. I am so glad that Jessie will take her steroid tablets easily with butter or cheese ..... as she is only 2 and other wise very healthy
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The pill popper was useless. Didn't loose the pill! So had to do it by hand. She took the post-pill sausage apology and went to eat it away from me :'( but loved me again this morning :relief:
Breakfast cocodamol-in-sausage down in one, she enjoyed her breakfast :yum:
But I am not sure even all these meds are giving her enough pain relief, so I really don't think we have very much longer. ... :'(
I actually tried to get the vet to tell me to have her put to sleep, but he thinks we should give it a few weeks to be sure it is a tumour (which would get worse) and not anything else (which should start to heal) and let her have some more fun times until we can't manage the pain.
At the mo I am thinking I'd rather pay for an x-ray / CT scan than be anxious about how she is feeling, but I will give the meds a few more days to be sure, as it sometimes takes a while to get back on top of pain. But it's borderline at the moment. And I suspect that when she is comfortable on her walk, she overdoes it, and then is sore later... ::) I don't want to be looking back and wondering, though, so if the vet isn't certain it's cancer, we need to do something to achieve that certainty!
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I think I'd ask for a further check on what the lump actually is too. Aspirate and test, or if that is too much for her an x-ray/MRI
Costly but you'd have peace of mind, and if it's not cancer there may be other options in treatment. Have you measured it since starting treatment?
I'd maybe restrict exercise a bit too - it is very easy to think 'oh well, let's just let her enjoy the time she has left.' But if it isn't cancer and can be treated differently it's worth holding back on exercise - dogs don't feel pain when enjoying running
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I think I'd pursue liquid painkillers if you can - and yes it takes about a week for the effect to build up. It very quickly loses effect if you miss doses too - from experience I have found that if I forget to take a dose I suffer the next day
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Chocolate mini rolls?
Our 1st Rottie towards the end wouldn't take her pills, they were for her heart so necessary. She was watching me eat one, so I offered her some, she took it, shoved her pills in, hey presto!
Did this for the last 2 weeks (didn't know this though, she went into liver failure, heart was fine).
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I may be called cold-hearted, but reading through all this.... I know what I would do, as of yesterday. I think if we see any animal is in pain, then it must be in a LOT of pain, as they are all quite good at hiding it. And to only gain a few more months, maybe...
I personally feel that we should let them go while the going is still good enough to not make me regretting not having done it earlier...
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I may be called cold-hearted, but reading through all this.... I know what I would do, as of yesterday. I think if we see any animal is in pain, then it must be in a LOT of pain, as they are all quite good at hiding it. And to only gain a few more months, maybe...
I personally feel that we should let them go while the going is still good enough to not make me regretting not having done it earlier...
To an extent I agree, if you know the dog cannot have more good life - but this tumour has not been investigated sufficiently in my view, and if painkillers keep her happy until that is proved to be untreatable then I;d carry on.
Not only that - all owners know when the time is right - dogs let you know.
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I may be called cold-hearted, but reading through all this.... I know what I would do, as of yesterday. I think if we see any animal is in pain, then it must be in a LOT of pain, as they are all quite good at hiding it. And to only gain a few more months, maybe...
I personally feel that we should let them go while the going is still good enough to not make me regretting not having done it earlier...
Not heartless at all, this echoes my own thoughts, inclinations and feelings, Anke. But when our vet, who knows Dottie and me well, says it isn't time yet, as it may not be cancer so we need to give it two weeks (with hefty pain relief) and see where we are then...
I have managed to find ways to sneak all the drugs into her now (*), so she is on the full whack and has been for 3 days. She is more sleepy than usual, but is enjoying all the food treats she is getting (only some of which conceal pills), has been quite bouncy on some of her walks (although not all), and I am now walking her more gently, on level ground, and not giving her the opportunity to play with Jilly, so that if it's not cancer we are giving it a better chance of healing. I will book her in to see the vet early next week.
(*) The cocodamol isn't as awful as the tramadol, and goes down without comment hidden in a lump of cheese or sausage in her normal meals. I managed to sneak 2 half tramadols into her in pieces of sausage but then she got wise to that, so I had to revert to using the back-of-the-throat technique. (Bought a pill popper, useless, didn't push the pill out of the jaws of the device.) She had become more tolerant of that when it was bracketed by bits of roast chicken before and after. (Apparently moist roast chicken wipes your memory of all unpleasantness when you are a Dot.) But today I picked up the "pill pockets" - treats into which you bury the pill and then remould the treat around it - which the local pet shop had got in for me. I wasn't hopeful, I thought the size of them was such that she'd chew (and any smaller and they wouldn't fully encase the pill), so then she would detect the pill, but to my surprise, it went down without comment in between pieces of chicken. So, :fc:, I should not have to shove my hands in her mouth any more.
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That's good to hear :)
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She deteriorated, wasn't happy putting weight on it at all, so yesterday we gave her antibiotics in case it's an infection, and did a biopsy. Biopsy results came in this morning, and I am currently digging a hole for her and a tree. :'( Run free, my lovely girl, see you on the other side. :love: :dog:
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She deteriorated, wasn't happy putting weight on it at all, so yesterday we gave her antibiotics in case it's an infection, and did a biopsy. Biopsy results came in this morning, and I am currently digging a hole for her and a tree. :'( Run free, my lovely girl, see you on the other side. :love: :dog:
I am so sorry Sally. :hug:
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:hug:
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:hug: That's when you know how much you love an animal - you know the right time
run free Dot - rainbow bridge is calling
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:hug: :dog: :hug: :'( JJ
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Run free. 14 years is not a bad innings.
Miss a week or two of forum and so late to send my condolences.
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Thank you everyone, for the advice and support (and tough love too ;)) before and for the kindness and understanding after :hug:
I had been letting the folks here know that I won't want to talk about it, and just a "sorry for your loss" and get on with things, please, and all the adults have respected that. But the kids ... ::) However, they are so open and matter-of-fact about it all that in fact it's been quite cathartic, being able to talk about it the same way, openly and matter-of-fact.
Today Ivy, who's 10, came round with a card she had made, and a flower.
The card has on the front a really rather accurate artwork of Dot and reads,
"Dot's good byes
I love you but I know you are a bit funny with kids."
and inside,
"To Sally
I'm so sorry. There's nothing I can do but I can say my goodbyes.
Goodbye Dot. I miss you, Ivy xxx"
I dunno, these kids. Makes you almost think perhaps the human race isn't doomed... :love: :hug:
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So sorry :hug: