The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Fleecewife on December 06, 2010, 12:11:02 pm
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I have just heard the alarming news that Palaceriggg Country Park near Glasgow may have to shut due to council cutbacks. The decision will be taken later this week.
For those of you who don't know Palacerigg, this is a farm open to the public, where they keep specimens of Scotlands 4 very rare sheep breeds - Soay, Boreray, North Ronaldsay and Castlemilk Moorit. In fact they hold the ONLY Boreray flock in Scotland. A breeder in England has expressed interest in taking on these sheep, but that would leave Scotland with no Boreray sheep at all.
Palacerigg also has one of only 3 North Ronaldsay flocks in Scotland, one of the 7 Castlemilk Moorit flocks, and one of the handful of Soay flocks.
I would take the Boreray if I possibly could but I have absolutely no further capacity here. Is there anyone out there with an interest in the rare breeds who could possibly help? None of these sheep should go south of the border if we can keep them here.
I have already been in contact with Richard Lochhead, the Scottish Agric minister, about the sorry state of rare breeds and the lack of support for smallholders in Scotland, via Aileen Campbell our MSP, but I think this is so urgent that the decision will have been made before they have even read their emails.
What can we do?
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Wish I could help, but we are as far south as you can get! Really hope people can take these sheep on - especially if they can be kept in Scotland.
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I know this is in the Sheep forum, but it's far from just sheep at stake here. I live in Kirkintilloch, just a short drive away from Palacerigg and visit often. They specialise in RBST registered breeds and have been doing incredible work the past few years particularly in bringing rare breed work to the publics attention as well as helping to enlarge the numbers of several different breeds.
- Eriskay ponies
- Shetland cattle
- White park cattle
- Baggot goats
- Guernsey goats
- Tamworth pigs
- Scots Grey chickens
- Scots Dumpy chickens
- Marsh Daisy chickens
- Old English pheasant fowl
- Golden Sebright
- Dwarf zebu
amongst others I can't name off the top of my head. This would be a great loss if closed >:(
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i didnt realise that soay were so rare. my friend has a flock and they breed like rabbits. the chap she got them from has about 50 in his flock too!
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WEBSITE
http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=6526
Online form to contact them - http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=12374&formid=10&sendtoid=0
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i didnt realise that soay were so rare. my friend has a flock and they breed like rabbits. the chap she got them from has about 50 in his flock too!
Hi Egglady, I think what I wrote was not very clear - I was typing too quickly. Soays are the least rare of the 4 Scottish very rare breeds. World wide there are 2192 registered Soay in 166 flocks, but the point is that only 6 of those are in Scotland, their native country. There are of course Soay on St Kilda, but they are not registered and cannot be brought onto the mainland. There are many flocks which are not registered, especially in Scotland, but without their pedigrees there is no guarantee that these animals are pure blooded, which makes them of less value to the future.
As a Soay breeder I am aware that there are many more potential Soay breeders in Scotland who simply cannot get hold of registered stock, so I am hoping to work with the Soay Sheep Society to bring more animals north. Meanwhile I am hoping that the Palacerigg sheep can be kept here with the help of smallholders and crofters.
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i didnt realise that soay were so rare. my friend has a flock and they breed like rabbits. the chap she got them from has about 50 in his flock too!
Hi Egglady, I think what I wrote was not very clear - I was typing too quickly. Soays are the least rare of the 4 Scottish very rare breeds. World wide there are 2192 registered Soay in 166 flocks, but the point is that only 6 of those are in Scotland, their native country. There are of course Soay on St Kilda, but they are not registered and cannot be brought onto the mainland. There are many flocks which are not registered, especially in Scotland, but without their pedigrees there is no guarantee that these animals are pure blooded, which makes them of less value to the future.
As a Soay breeder I am aware that there are many more potential Soay breeders in Scotland who simply cannot get hold of registered stock, so I am hoping to work with the Soay Sheep Society to bring more animals north. Meanwhile I am hoping that the Palacerigg sheep can be kept here with the help of smallholders and crofters.
Not 100% sure but I think there are Soays near Condie, but may not be registered. Also, even if you can find Soays with three quarter blood they would still be useful for preserving the breed - can be bred back to pure bloods and dilute the incoming blood. That has been done in other animals for hundreds of years - and why there are 270 or so breeds of dog!
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Budget meeting is 9th December. I've emailed the Council and the park management for comment, also CSSA and the local RBST support group.
Lochhead? After the debacle of the Knocknagael Shetland cows, don't hold out hope for the government to help.
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Hi Doganjo.
The thing with Soays is that they are so primitive and have been kept separate from other breeds for at least a thousand years, that their usefulness for scientific research into things such as resistance to disease, susceptibilty to worm burdens and so on, depends on them being kept pure. Those pure and rare characteristics will one day, probably sooner rather than later, be vital to breeding new sheep types to cope with the changing climate and agricultural needs of the country.
I know they have used crossing back to recreate a breed - the Norfolk horn - and it is recognised that after 16 generations any new blood has been effectively bred out from the phenotype, but a few genes will still be in the genotype to confuse the picture.
Fortunately Soays are available purebred from England, Wales and even North America, so that problem should not arise. But we should be looking after our own breeds better here in Scotland.
i didnt realise that soay were so rare. my friend has a flock and they breed like rabbits. the chap she got them from has about 50 in his flock too!
Hi Egglady, I think what I wrote was not very clear - I was typing too quickly. Soays are the least rare of the 4 Scottish very rare breeds. World wide there are 2192 registered Soay in 166 flocks, but the point is that only 6 of those are in Scotland, their native country. There are of course Soay on St Kilda, but they are not registered and cannot be brought onto the mainland. There are many flocks which are not registered, especially in Scotland, but without their pedigrees there is no guarantee that these animals are pure blooded, which makes them of less value to the future.
As a Soay breeder I am aware that there are many more potential Soay breeders in Scotland who simply cannot get hold of registered stock, so I am hoping to work with the Soay Sheep Society to bring more animals north. Meanwhile I am hoping that the Palacerigg sheep can be kept here with the help of smallholders and crofters.
Not 100% sure but I think there are Soays near Condie, but may not be registered. Also, even if you can find Soays with three quarter blood they would still be useful for preserving the breed - can be bred back to pure bloods and dilute the incoming blood. That has been done in other animals for hundreds of years - and why there are 270 or so breeds of dog!
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Hi cmorrell. I replied to your points earlier but my reply hasn't come through so it must have been swallowed up by the ether ::)
I hadn't realised just how many rare breeds there are at Palacerigg. There is almost nothing about the livestock on the website, or at least that I could find, just mention of a few of the breeds and species they keep. What a place to lose. Do you know more about the situation?
I know this is in the Sheep forum, but it's far from just sheep at stake here. I live in Kirkintilloch, just a short drive away from Palacerigg and visit often. They specialise in RBST registered breeds and have been doing incredible work the past few years particularly in bringing rare breed work to the publics attention as well as helping to enlarge the numbers of several different breeds.
- Eriskay ponies
- Shetland cattle
- White park cattle
- Baggot goats
- Guernsey goats
- Tamworth pigs
- Scots Grey chickens
- Scots Dumpy chickens
- Marsh Daisy chickens
- Old English pheasant fowl
- Golden Sebright
- Dwarf zebu
amongst others I can't name off the top of my head. This would be a great loss if closed >:(
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Budget meeting is 9th December. I've emailed the Council and the park management for comment, also CSSA and the local RBST support group.
Lochhead? After the debacle of the Knocknagael Shetland cows, don't hold out hope for the government to help.
Hi Rosemary. How did you find that out? I have drawn a blank all day - but I must admit I have spent more time ploughing through all that lovely new deposit of snow to get to my stock :chook: :sheep:.
So we have until Thursday to try to influence the decision.
I hadn't heard about the Knocknagael Shetland cattle until I looked on the RBST website today, and that doesn't say much. Can you tell us the full story please?
I agree that Richard Lochhead and the Government are unlikely to do anything but there's nothing like a bit of shaming :o
I wonder if the Scottish farming press are interested, or even aware?
Can you let us know what replies you get please.
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thanks fleecewife and co - makes sense now
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Aberdeen council recently tried to withdraw funding from the local rare breeds farm (Doonies) and they also breed Eriskay ponies amongst others. It would be worth them liaising, as Doonies eventually came to a deal with the council and survived, at least for now.
http://www.dooniesfarm.co.uk/ (http://www.dooniesfarm.co.uk/)
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I got this yesterday from Ian, who's the Secretary of the Caledonian RBST Support Group
"Hi Rosemary
Yes I did hear that its a move by the council as a cost cut. RBST Stoneleigh are trtying to help via Ruth Dalton and I have had some conversations with Clair Rock who has started a rescue movement. I sent her some information about RBST and did a short interview with the local paper some time ago but I have to admit to losing contact abit due to a busy period with work.I think there was a council meeting due this week on 9th when the final decision will be made.
I will try and find out more from Clair and let you know.
Ian"
I'll pass on more information as I get it.
Re Knocknagael The Scottish Government had a herd of Shetland cattle - all female, I think - that it had maintained to preserve the genetics. Due to cost cutting, they decided at very short notice to sell it at Dingwall Mart. The Shetland Cattle Breeders Association and the Shetland Cattle Herd Book Society were either not told or told very close to the sale - to close for them to do anything to secure the herd. Furthermore, many of the females had not been put in calf for years so now some doubt as to whether they will be able to calve again. So much for preserving the genetics. Maybe we shoudl just clone them - that seems to be OK.
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Aberdeen council recently tried to withdraw funding from the local rare breeds farm (Doonies) and they also breed Eriskay ponies amongst others. It would be worth them liaising, as Doonies eventually came to a deal with the council and survived, at least for now.
http://www.dooniesfarm.co.uk/ (http://www.dooniesfarm.co.uk/)
Thanks for that link. Doonies seems to have lots of 'friends' - so far i am still unable to even contact Palacerigg to see if they have such a set-up there, or if they are even wanting to fight the closures. Do you know if the support for Doonies began after the Council decision had been made, or did it start when people knew of the threat? There is only one day left before the council finance meeting where the future of palacerigg livestock will be decided.
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Hi Rosemary - any idea who this Clair Rock is as she seems to be the only person trying to do something positive. I would like to be able to contact her.
Still no reply from Palacerigg. I have tried also to find out who will be at the Council meeting on the 9th, so we can lobby them first. I have had no luck on the NLC website - I am hopeless at these things as I don't seem to be able to dig deeper. Can you find out who will sit at the meeting?
Apparently the stockperson at Palacerigg is Lucy - Julie Suffolk of the Soay and Boreray Socs is trying to contact her urgently for more information, and to let her know of our support.
Apparently the Council has earmarked the 'freed-up space' once the animals have been ditched to creating an extreme sports playground - which is bound to go bust in a couple of years.
Julie Suffolk has commented that once the decision has been taken it is likely that the animals will be dispersed through a mart, probably Lanark, with very little notice. I have had several expressions of interest/offers to help from TAS members, but if the stock goes straight through Lanark we will all have to be prepared to act quickly.
If it wasn't so sad, you would have to laugh at the Governments concept of 'preserving the genetics' with the Shetland cows - preserving in aspic doesn't work, they have to be bred. Sometimes I just want to weep.
I got this yesterday from Ian, who's the Secretary of the Caledonian RBST Support Group
"Hi Rosemary
Yes I did hear that its a move by the council as a cost cut. RBST Stoneleigh are trtying to help via Ruth Dalton and I have had some conversations with Clair Rock who has started a rescue movement. I sent her some information about RBST and did a short interview with the local paper some time ago but I have to admit to losing contact abit due to a busy period with work.I think there was a council meeting due this week on 9th when the final decision will be made.
I will try and find out more from Clair and let you know.
Ian"
I'll pass on more information as I get it.
Re Knocknagael The Scottish Government had a herd of Shetland cattle - all female, I think - that it had maintained to preserve the genetics. Due to cost cutting, they decided at very short notice to sell it at Dingwall Mart. The Shetland Cattle Breeders Association and the Shetland Cattle Herd Book Society were either not told or told very close to the sale - to close for them to do anything to secure the herd. Furthermore, many of the females had not been put in calf for years so now some doubt as to whether they will be able to calve again. So much for preserving the genetics. Maybe we shoudl just clone them - that seems to be OK.
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Well, because of the freezing and difficult conditions, the Council has put off the big decision-making day until Tuesday 14th. Have a look on the North Lanarkshire Council website - doganjo has given the link earlier here. They do now have a mention of the meeting, called 'difficult decisions' or something like that. There are various cost-cutting options they will be considering, such as no longer doing gardening for private house owners for free - I vote they stop that rather than closing the rare breeds farm. I will try to post the full links tomorrow, once I learn how, unless someone else gets there first :). There is also an option to contact the group, so will do that too when I have a brain.
Please anyone else who cares about this too, email the committee to explain why it is so important for Palacerigg farm park to stay open and keep their rare breeds going.
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WEBSITE
http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=6526
Online form to contact them - http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=12374&formid=10&sendtoid=0
I've contacted them using the second link - here's a copy of what I've written (I'm not the best with words, but hopefully it'll get the message across) Maybe if we ALL mention TAS they'll realise that there's a fair bit of support ???
Hi,
I'm part of an on-line forum called 'The Accidental Smallholder' (I suspect you may get a few emails from members) we've heard that the park may be forced to close and are all very concerned that we may lose some of our rarest breeds which you do such a good job of preserving.
I live in South Lanarkshire and keep rare breed pigs and chickens - rare breeds and their preservation are a subject very close to my heart and I would like to help in any way I can.
Please let me know if I can help, or who I should contact to try and help keep the park going or alternatively what the proceedure would be to re-home some of your animals within the Lanarkshire/Central Scotland area.
Many thanks,
Karen McKay
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Excellent Karen, thank you so much.
We have had the following lukewarm reply from the RBST, who seem to have missed the point that this is Scotlands only approved rare breeds farm:
Dear Mr Johnston,
Thank you for your email to the RBST regarding the rare breeds at Palacerigg, which as you rightly state is one of our approved farm parks. In the past year alone several of our council run farm parks have faced or are facing similar closures due to the cuts made by local authorities. It seems farms are an easy target for cost saving. RBST is working with these centres to give as much support as we can, and if and when necessary help with the re-homing of stock. Unfortunately, our resources are not such that we are able to financially support all of our approved Council run farm parks facing these threats. We are supporting campaigns at other approved farm parks around the country and will do the same for Palacerigg.
I will forward your email on to Viki Mills, the RBST Trustee with responsibility for liaison with approved farm parks and our field officer for the area, Ruth Dalton.
Kind regards
Claire
Claire Barber
Conservation Officer
Direct Line: 024 7669 8762
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I've emailed Ruth Dalton too ;) ;D ;D ;D
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I can't help with animals but could help raise funds - used to be part of my job. I have emailed N L Council:viz
"I am a member of The Accidental Smallholder Forum, and have read disturbing news of the Park possibly having funding withdrawn. It is imperative that our Scottish Rare breeds are maintained on farms such as this one, and since this is Scotland's only approved rare breeds farm, I feel it should be supported. If there is anything I can do to help I will gladly do so. My fellow TAS members are also disturbed by this news and you will probably received numerous emails on the matter. Although I am not in a position to re-home any of the animals, many of the others are, and I recommend that you take up these offers if the Park must close. These are experienced smallholders and animal owners.
Regards
Anne Massie"
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Thank you Anne - that is superb.
Below is a copy of the email I have sent to Richard Lochhead MSP today, copies to every sheep soc involved and to various sheep online chat groups, plus Lawrence Alderson. Soon I will also send similar stuff to NLC, The Glasgow Herald and The Scottish Farmer (need a cuppa first !) I haven't included the Eriskay Pony people as i don't have contact details - does anyone else? I would also like to send a copy to the RBST Caledonian support group - anyone have contact details for them?
To Richard Lochhead, MSP
On Tuesday 14th December, North Lanarkshire Council are meeting to discuss possible financial savings, which would include disposing of Palacerigg Country Park's rare breeds of farm livestock, as part of the austerity measures. They hope this will save £170,000 a year, a tiny percentage of their overall budget.
The importance of this collection of Scotlands rare breeds to our country cannot be over-emphasised.
#Currently, Palacerigg holds the only flock of the very rare Boreray breed of sheep in Scotland - 30 animals out of the total 439 in existence, the rest being in English flocks.
#North Ronaldsay sheep are world famous as 'the seaweed eating sheep' - there are fewer than 1000 of these animals all told. We have three small flocks in Scotland, one of them at Palacerigg.
#The iconic Soay breed of little sheep from St Kilda, the most primitive sheep in existence and of great value to science, has only six flocks of registered animals currently in Scotland, one of them at Palacerigg.
As well as several British rare breeds, Palacerigg also keeps Eriskay ponies which are desperately rare, Shetland cattle, Scots Grey and Scots Dumpy chickens - all Scottish breeds which are on the 'at risk' register of the Rare Breeds Survival Trust. Nowhere else in Scotland is there such a collection of our rare breeds.
As a country, we have a duty to ourselves and under European law to maintain our rare breeds of livestock. They hold within their genes material which is of irreplaceable importance and significance for the development of farm livestock which will be crucial as farming adapts to changing climatic and economic conditions. Groundbreaking scientific research in Scotland is currently underway using these rare breeds for their unique genetic material. As a country we are in the forefront of research into farm livestock, forever increasing and sharing our knowledge with the world. At Palacerigg, the public, including many children, are able to see these animals and understand their importance to the future of Scottish farming. Palacerigg is of vital importance in the education of the young - the scientists of the future. Palacerigg is also important as the only public place in Scotland where these animals can be seen, where scientists can envision how to use their genetic material and farmers, present and future, can see for themselves the potential in these breeds for improving and modifying their commercial stock to adapt to changing needs.
To date, Palacerigg has done sterling work in the preservation and conservation of our rare breeds. Its importance to Scotland is too great for it to be reduced to a figure in a list of possible budget cuts of one local council, demolished with little consideration of its national importance. Please intervene with North Lanarkshire Council with your support to ensure the continuing existence of Palacerigg Rare Breeds Centre.
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Can't do anything myself as a Brummie but good luck to you guys in what you are trying to do.
You seem to be leading the line well Juliet..........keep up the good work.
Ian
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Brilliant, Fleecewife
The leader of NL Council is Cllr James McCabe [email protected]. The Convener of the Committee responsible for country parks - Environmental Services - is Cllr Helen McKenna [email protected]
It may be more productive to email them than a Council mailbox.
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Hi Fleecewife(Juliet)
If it's okay with you, I'm going to copy your letter to my msp and any others I can find ! You say it all so very much better than me lol! ;)
Here's the contacts for the eriskay pony society http://www.eriskaypony.com/index.php?option=com_contact&catid=12&Itemid=3 (http://www.eriskaypony.com/index.php?option=com_contact&catid=12&Itemid=3)
I have space avaiable (approx 30-40 mins from Palacrigg) where I could keep some stock until homes are found, if that's of any help ???
Back to battle lol! ;D ;D ;D
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Okay, here's the reply I got from Ruth at the RBST.
Dear Karen
Thanks very much for your email - and for offers of help. I have been in close contact with the farm manager and head stockman since they first heard about this and have been giving support whereever I can. We have contacted all of the breed society secretaries for the relevant breeds at Palacerigg so that if the worst comes to the worst (and the animals will almost certainly have to go to public auction as this is council policy) we can notify as many people as possible. There is a great deal of interest and support amongst the breed societies and several offers of "holding land" locally. As was the case with the Shetland Cattle, we are hoping that the auctioneers would be able to specify that potential purchasers should identify themselves before the sale, and notice could be given that the animals should go to breeding homes only (this was successful at Dingwall and all of the Shetlands did go to breeding homes). We at RBST would do all we could to ensure that this would be the case with Palacerigg stock.
I'm delighted that TAS have heard about this and are being so active in response. I am slightly concerned that your emails to the Palacerigg "contact us" page will not get through to the council as it would depend on someone at the Country Park forwarding them on - so please do send them again to James McCabe and Helen McKenna (email addresses brilliantly found by Rosemary on your forum). I have copied Ian Bell, our Caledonia group secretary, in on this email.
The points raised by Juliet in her letter are excellent and cover all the main issues very well. Just to let you know, Palacerigg is one of two Conservation Farm Parks in Scotland, the other being the aforementioned Doonies which came onto our lists this year. Doonies is currently being run privately by its previous Farm Manager and his wife, who have taken on a 15 year lease to save the Farm Park from closure. They are aware of the situation at Palacerigg but unfortunately it is very unlikely that the same could happen there, as the Rare Breeds are integrated with the Country Park and I can't see how they could do a similar lease to a private individual.
I hope that the meeting delay gives everyone a last chance to contact the Councillors and make their views known, please do give me a call if you'd like to discuss this further.
With best wishes
Ruth
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hey guys keep up the good work glad to see you all love the park and glad to see you want to save us great give them hell
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;D ;D ;D Welcome to the mad house
Karen x
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Let's go folks!
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Okay, so I've emailed all the MSP's and local councillers in my area, daily mail and daily record and J McCabe and H McKenna at North Lanarkshire council - I'm away to hit facebook now ;D ;D ;D
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Hello,
as a resident of North Lanarkshire, I've emailed my local councillor (who I know quite well) urging him to take a part at the meeting on Tuesday, pointing out that it would be a great shame if these are lost to the general public of Scotland.
If the decision to dispose of the rare breed animals is decided, then I've asked him to make sure that RBST is involved along with Scottish enthusiasts, to try and keep them in the country. In particular, I told him it would be a disaster if any were auctioned for meat!
John
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Just received this reply:
<<Hello John,
Thanks for your email.
I fully understand where you are coming from and yes the meeting is now on Tuesday.
I will make enquiries tomorrow.
Thanks!
Robert.>>
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On-line petition is now set up and running, please can everybody (regardless of where you live) sign up and add a bit of weight to the arguement
http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/savepalacerigg (http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/savepalacerigg)
Thanks folks
Karen x
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Its a sad day for all if it happens :-[. I lived in the park with my parents for a few years as my father was a park ranger when the park was founded by David Stephen. I have great memories of doing the feeding rounds as a kid with my father or the other rangers and once or twice Mrs Stephen allowing me to be in the enclosure while she fed the wolves.
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Wolves :o didn't know they had wolves 8)
Thank you everyone for all this hard work and support :bouquet:
I have now heard from Peter Titley who is President of the RBST. He helped run the campaign to save Doonie's farm in Aberdeen so is familiar with the ins and outs of this kind of campaign. He has said he will do his best to be at the council meeting on the 14th, to represent the RBST - great news !!
If anyone else can also be at that meeting to offer support that will be wonderful.
There might also be something in the Daily Record, if not tomorrow then soon.
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Too far for me - but thoughts with you - Wolves - Camperdown in Dundee used to have Wolves when I helped out there - they were fantastic - loved the feeding round - I was a bit mad, no fear, wanted in with everything!!
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the animals will almost certainly have to go to public auction as this is council policy
Well it's about time Council Policy was changed - who pays these Councillors anyway? You and Me - so WE say what policy is - NOT them!
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do they still have wolves nothing compared to the wolves round the ring at lanark they also used to have stringlug the fox or it was a local that david stephen used to write about
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There might also be something in the Daily Record, if not tomorrow then soon.
And the Daily Mail too (if I've got anything to do with it ;))
the animals will almost certainly have to go to public auction as this is council policy
Well it's about time Council Policy was changed - who pays these Councillors anyway? You and Me - so WE say what policy is - NOT them!
You're right Annie, these 'elected individuals' are supposed to represent OUR wishes - they've never really done a very good job of that though ::) :(
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It is very important that if the farm stock has to be sold through auction these animals go to breeding farms, not to the butcher, or even down to England if we can possibly help it - there are few enough of our rare breeds here in Scotland as it is. RBST has said they will suggest to Palacerigg that they put a reserve on all animals to prevent them going to the butchers - who will be there. This is what they did with the sale of the Shetland cattle from Knocknagael and all went to breeding homes (although they might be too old to breed...).
My OH will also speak with the auctioneer and we will buy anything which is not bought by a breeder. We can redistribute afterwards.
The galling thing is that if they fetch high prices, the council will be benefitting from our desire to save the animals they are dumping - so we need a strategy. But we can decide on that if the day comes.
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will endever to find out what lines they have with pigs but from memory i think they are not the rarest of lines
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Doganjo wrote : I can't help with animals but could help raise funds - used to be part of my job.
Thank you Anne - it may well come to that, if we need to persuade the Council that they can manage to continue with sponsorships. Immediate thoughts as sponsors are Grangemouth, Scottish Power, and whoever is putting up all these windfarms. I'm sure there are lots of other big businesses which want to show how green and community friendly they are which would help.
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The pig blood lines are clunes jasper and moonshine lucky lass 4 and 6
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the animals will almost certainly have to go to public auction as this is council policy
Well it's about time Council Policy was changed - who pays these Councillors anyway? You and Me - so WE say what policy is - NOT them!
Bit off topic, but it's unfair to the Council to criticise them for securing the best price for assets that they are selling. One, it's the law except in very particular circumstances. Second, it's a bit hypocritical - if they sold something we weren't interested in for less than the market value, then they'd get it in the neck for that too.
Always easy to have a dig at the Cooncil!
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I've started emailing ALL the primary schools in North Lanarkshire, asking them to pass on the details of the petition to their staff, pupils and parents. But there's a HUGE list of them (and that's without secondaries !)
If anyone wants to start at the bottom of the list and work back doing the same thing we can meet in the middle ;)
Here's the link
http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=13165 (http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=13165)
Thanks x
Edit: Hubby's kicking me off the PC - I've done up to and including all the schools starting with M.
Karen x
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You are doing a brilliant job Karen. Sorry you had to stop halfway through. I am still contacting councillors etc etc.
I have phoned North Lanarkshire Council this morning. The meeting on Tuesday 1030am will take place in the Council Chambers, Civic Centre, Windmillhill St, Motherwell, ML1 1AB .
However, I was told that members of the public are not allowed to address the meeting, but may only observe procedure.
Below are the email addresses of all members of the Policy & Resources Committee. Sorry I can't turn them all into hyperlinks as the page jumps around once I get lower down. The first few are for Cumbernauld, which is where Palacerigg is.
Please email these councillors with your views on the possible closure of Palacerigg
James McCabe -( Lab ) convener - [email protected] (http://[email protected])
Danny Carrigan (Lab) - [email protected] (http://[email protected])
Wm Homer (SNP) [email protected] (http://[email protected])
Tom Johnston (SNP) [email protected] (http://[email protected])
David Key (SNP) [email protected] (http://[email protected])
Barry McCullough (Lab) [email protected] (http://[email protected])
Gordon Murray (Ind..) [email protected] (http://[email protected])
Robert Burrows (Lab) [email protected] (http://[email protected])
Ch. Cefferty (Ind) [email protected]
Sofia Coyle (Lab) [email protected]
Thom.Curley (Lab) [email protected]
John Higgins (Lab) [email protected]
Th. Lunny (Lab) [email protected]
Rich. Lyle (SNP) [email protected]
Harry McGuigan (Lab) [email protected]
Helen McKenna (Lab) [email protected]
Th. Morgan (Lab) [email protected]
John Pentland (Lab) [email protected]
James Robertson (Lab) [email protected]
Michael Ross (Lab) [email protected]
James Smith (Lab) [email protected]
David Stocks (SNP) [email protected]
Alan Valentine (SNP) [email protected]
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Here's the press release from the Rare breeds Survival Trust (I've already emailed it to ALL the councillors listed above, asking them to consider opening the meeting to public consultation/discussion and expressing the concern felt by the farming community as a whole at this proposal)
Oh, how sick of me are they going to be by the end of this lol! ;) ;D ;D ;D
Commenting on the proposed Removal of the Rare Breed Livestock collection from Palacerigg Country Park in North Lanarkshire,
Peter Titley, President of RBST said:
“Any moves which undermine or threaten agricultural activity in the UK are a matter of concern. Farmers and stockeepers have had a difficult time in recent years from a range of threats: from animal disease to climate change and from the credit squeeze to the competition from cheap imports. Despite all this, consumer interest in farming and the wider environment has never been more apparent. The links between our land and the crops and animals which grow upon it, plus the importance of our agricultural heritage, have a deservedly high public profile as all UK governments seek to better inform the public.
It is troubling, therefore, when we hear of the threat to the established collection of farm animals at Palacerigg - This conservation flagship that has been at the forefront of North Lanarkshire Council’s magnificent support of native breeds of farm animals for many years. It is an important part of the UK network of Approved Conservation Centres promoted by RBST and for many years was the only such establishment in Scotland.
A recent RBST report on Palacerigg describes its animals as “outstanding” and identifies the high quality of management and husbandry while underlining the value of the enterprise to the general public. Since it opened, Palacerigg has provided an immeasurable amount of education and information for thousands of visitors. At the same time, the name of North Lanarkshire Council has been held in high esteem by other livestock keepers who have seen the results of the skill and husbandry of Palacerigg farm staff.
RBST has not yet had an opportunity to assess the specific genetic importance of the bloodlines of the animals currently at Palacerigg but the fact that they are listed under our conservation umbrella is cause enough for us to seek to influence the Council against their removal.
The conservation effort at Palacerigg is something of which the North Lanarkshire Council may be justifiably proud. The removal of the collection of rare farm animals would deprive the enterprise of a significant element and, moreover, would deprive Scotland of one of its keystone conservation projects.
These animals are not museum pieces: they are a living reservoir of the genetic materials which provided the foundations and bedrock of the livestock industry of the British Isles. These creatures have played a vital role in our past. They are again poised to influence the future of extensive and traceable models of stock rearing and to educate current and future generations about the links between food and farming.
On behalf of RBST I will seek to meet with representatives of the Council and with others in the locality who would be interested in exploring alternatives to the dispersal of these important animals.“
Note to Editors
1. Contact: RBST President - Peter Titley 01785 850183 or email : [email protected];
2. RBST was established in 1973 as the world’s first national non-governmental organisation created for the genetic conservation of farm animal genetic resources and its Patron is HRH Prince Charles. During the first seven decades of the 1900’s, 26 native breeds of livestock became extinct in Britain. Since the formation of the RBST no native breeds have been lost.
3. RBST monitors the female breeding numbers of the UK’s livestock (sheep, cattle, goats, pigs, poultry and equines) to determine the viability of a breed. Those most at risk are placed on the RBST Watchlist.
4. Further information on www.rbst.org.uk
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Thank you Karen for posting that.
Jamie Hepburn MSP for Central Scotland has contacted NLC with a request that they consider not chopping the rare breeds farm, so that is a bit more progress. The more MSPs we can get on side the better. I think those councillors must be beginning to get the message, as long as they open their emails.
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Fleecewife,
The more voices we have, the louder we can shout, the louder we can shout - the more chance there is of them listening (hopefully!)
I'm definately interested in going along to the meeting on Tuesday at Motherwell, any other takers ?
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yes I will do my best to be there, if I can get away. Hopefully some of the rest of you can make it to sunny Motherwell.
Peter Titley has sent a copy of his email to the Councillors:
FROM THE PRESIDENT OF RBST
to the Convenor of Policy & Resources Committee, North Lanarkshire Council
Dear Councillor McCabe
Palacerigg Country Park
On behalf of RBST, the UK’s premier Farm Animal Conservation organisation, I am writing to register concern at the budgetary dilemma facing your Council and in particular the proposed impact on the collection of important farm animals at Palacerigg.
Your Council has been at the forefront of native breed conservation for a long time and I am sure that the removal of livestock from Palacerigg would not only have a damaging impact on the affected breeds but also on the establishment itself. Such a move would fail to do justice to the part which your Council has played historically in promoting native and especially Scottish breeds to the public and even at this late hour I would urge you to defer your decision in order that alternatives to animal dispersal might be explored.
RBST is aware of the financial pressures facing a large number of Authorities but believes that the importance of our livestock heritage cannot be overstated. Palacerigg is an important part of the UK network of Approved Conservation Centres promoted by RBST and for many years was the only such establishment in Scotland.
A recent RBST report on Palacerigg describes its animals as “outstanding” and identifies the high quality of management and husbandry. Palacerigg has provided an immeasurable amount of education and information for thousands of visitors and the report underlines the value of the enterprise to the general public. North Lanarkshire Council has been held in high esteem by other livestock keepers and breeders who have seen the results of the skill and husbandry of Palacerigg farm staff. RBST is sensitive to the issues raised in your consultation documents but we also have a duty to uphold the principles which have driven our work over the past 37 years. I would be happy to meet you and colleagues to discuss these issues in more detail. My personal contact details are given below.
Yours sincerely
Peter Titley
PRESIDENT
RBST
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palacerigg is not only about animals its a magical place where people can feel the freedome off open space away from the concrete jungle palacerigg opened in 1974 and hashad animal ever since then the park is a place of raw beuty and also a place of adventure what makes it all the better is seeing some of scotland rare breeds at the same time it would break my heart to see the animals go i know tese are hard times and the finantual situation isbad but please remember there are alot of people on our side inside the council as well as outside i thank you all from the bottom of my heart for all your hard work and tim you have giving up in this quest i really hope it all works out for the best i wil be there on tuesday so hope to meet up with some of you.
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I've emailed The Wee County, The Herald, Richard Simpson MSP, Keith Brown MP
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As well as TV, radio and everybody else I can think of I've also contacted Duncan Bannatyne (Dragon's Den) as a leading Scot he'll hopefully step up to the mark ;)
Anyone got an email address for Sir Sean Connory or Billy Connolly ? ;D (I'm still looking, but run the risk of being considered a stalker lol!)
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I can find out if the STV newsdesk is interested in the story - but not until Monday when my friend is back at work.
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What excellent ideas you have all had. My brain seized up last night with all the unfamiliar time at the computer but I have now sent messages to STV News, BBC News and Clyde1 - thank you Karen for the links. It was bit of a squash and of course I couldn't get the attachments in.......
Palacerigg, that is wonderfully poetic! Such a lovely place to save. Tom Johnston is the Councillor for Palacerriggs ward and he is firmly on our side.
I think Sean Connery and Billy Connolly are excellent people to contact. They must have fan clubs or at least websites?
Can anyone else think of any other bigwigs to approach?
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Erm, I'm maybe taking it a bit far now :-[
I've contacted HRH Prince Charles, Rangers and Celtic football clubs, the Federation of City Farms as well as starting threads on the forums of River Cottage, RSPB and netmums. Sir Sean and the 'Big Yin' seem to be somewhat elusive with their contact details :-\ Such a shame, but I'll keep trying ;) ;D ;D ;D
Emailed a couple of businesses in Cumbernauld and I'll continue to do so until my eyes cross or my fingers go numb - whichever happens first lol!
Signatures up to 288, so we're doing something right ! ;D ;D ;D
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You are my hero HappyHippy - well, heroine ;D :bouquet: All excellent ideas.
I had a look at Sean Connery's and Billy Connolly's websites and as you say, the only contact is to tell Sean he's lovely - but he knows that anyway. www.billyconnolly.com has a very different home page and a lovely song with even a wee bit of pipes and drums to listen to while you work out where you're meant to click (for those who're a bit slow at these things). Thank you Billy!
I will ask around to find out how you contact these guys.
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Hi All - I am a newbie to this site having only found it through the wonderful "happy hippy". She contacted me to let me know about Palacerigg. Although the forum has a lot of posts which are great - the possible closure was actually announced in the press on 23 September - http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/extinction-fear-as-rare-breeds-face-axe-in-55m-council-cuts-1.1057021 - I only found out about 3 weeks later by chance whilst phoning Paul (manages the animals) because the Eriskay colt born last year (Aran) was from my stallion Cuillin. Paul works very hard and has weathered a couple of political storms there.... he really cares about the animals.
Since hearing the news I had contacted a few breed societies and let them know - some knew, some didn't and were shocked.
I have also written a letter to the NLC head of the department asking that the letter be given to all involved in the committee - he has replied in the affirmative. Without copying the letter here in full, my main thrust was the EU Biodiversity regulation of 2004 which states that eash member State (i.e. us!) must conserve, protect and promote the native farm breeds - i.e. what we call "rare breeds". Furthermore, in that same regulation it states that the member states should create "ARKs" - (I have yet to see ours 6 years down the line!!) Based on this I have suggested that NLC could do really well by publicising themselves as Scotland's first ARK. I also of course pointed out that it was a superb educational resource for the children. I ended the letter by requesting information about IF the park closed, where the animals would be auctioned or alternatively if we could purchase them. He replied in the positive to all points.
Can I also say that you can forget Mr Lochhead.... I actually have a letter from him (and remember this is the Scottish party for culture and heritage ) in which he states to me that Shetland cattle are neither rare nor culturally or historically important. He has been sent my reply!!!
I have suggested to the breed societies and to Ruth Dalton that we set up Land Banks where animals can be kept short term if need be.... this would also be useful in any future emergency of the same nature - which is highly probable in today's economic climate.
Doonies by the way was actually rescued by a group "Friend's of Doonies" - they had a few obstacles in their way via the council and finally the lovely Husband and wife team negotiated a 15 year lease ---- she actually gave up her job.... wonderful people!
Finally, there is I believe a gentleman who has another small flock of Boreray's in the North of Scotland who is working very hard at getting them registered..... another brilliant person. - so there are actually two flocks in Sctoland apart from the ones on the island of course. The main Boreray lady - a wonderful person - explained the details to me..... but it is complicated, believe me!
There is plenty more which I could convey, but this posting is FAR longer than I wanted - but I thought it important considering my website!!! My apologies. ;)
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I think we have got big enough now to start 'Friends of Palacerigg Rare Breeds' at [email protected] . There seem to be various unconnected small groups all working towards the same end so by cc'ing this email address in correspondence we can all know what we are all doing. Please if you know of anyone not on TAS but who is interested in the cause can you pass on this address. Later, if the farm continues, or if the animals have to be sold, we will be able to co-ordinate our efforts, and we can have a dedicated website.
I hope you all think this will help.
Welcome happymanoftheworld - I had just written the above when your email came through, so i hope you support the idea of friends of Palacerigg too!
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Hi Fleecewife - I completely support that idea - I am always a positive thinker hence my user name however I think that the council will act too quickly in the event of the decision going against the park continuing. I think i read in the forum posts that Ruth as Northern field officer for the RBST said something similar in a reply to someone. I have been working on this since October.... and, as you know, the decision was supposed to be 25th Nov, then Dec, then bad weather.... each time I get myself "hyped" up. I was actually supposed to be meeting the CEO of the RBST last Tuesday on another matter regarding rare breeds, but the weather meant a postponment.
As I said - an eternal optimist, but in this case I amnot confident of success..... I was at the park a couple of days before the blizzards and there seemed to be "that" air about it. :-\
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Hi happyman I have just emailed you offline. Peter Titley who is the president of RBST is well involved now and has put out a press release (karen has copied it above or you can see it at www.rbst.org.uk) and sent a long email to the councillors, all very well written. He is prepared to appear on TV and to come north for a meeting of supporters if we can get the decision deferred. he would have come up for Tuesday but the public are not allowed to 'interject' at the meeting !!
The instant we know what decision the council has made, my OH and I will nip along to L&S at Lanark to find out when the sale is - they might already have booked it - or am I being overly cynical ?
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I don't think you're being cynical Juliet, they've not exactly given us reason to trust them before now ::)
I think even if we're not allowed to 'interject' that a good turnout of people opposed to the closure would at least make them HAVE to take notice. Especially as they are in breech of European Law (that's got to hold SOME weight ;)) Let's see how worried they are about their budget cuts given the threat of a whopping big fine from Brussles ::) :o
Friends of Palacerigg Rare Breeds now has it's own Facebook page ;D ;D ;D
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Friends-of-Palacerigg-Rare-Breeds/165094546865127?v=wall&ref=ts (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Friends-of-Palacerigg-Rare-Breeds/165094546865127?v=wall&ref=ts)
We can link it to the website once it's up and running ;)
I really should go to bed now, mmmmm - we'll see lol!
Talk to you in the morning,
Karen x
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who is all going to the meeting on tuesday ?????
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I will be there - look for aged musician-looking person with glasses and a fawn baseball cap saying Strathaven Rare Breeds - although my website is Scottish Rare Breeds. :hshoe:
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I'll be there ! Hopefully I can meet up with Juliet en-route ;) I'm quite tall, quite fat and have long brown hair and glasses (maybe I'll make a 'friends of Palacerigg' sign to take with us ? ;) ;D :wave:)
BUT
I notice from NLC's website this morning that there is no mention of a meeting on the 14th, but the 16th is mentioned ??? Have they changed the date again (or are they just keeping it hush hush ?)
Palacerigg - please don't think me cheeky (or nosey), but who are you ? Would you tell us your name please or pm me if you don't want to go public, just so we know who you are ;)
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Hi Happy - North Lanarkshire website http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=20160 gives you what you require. 8)
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we wont be there been to to many cooncil meetings in the past talk Shiite and decisions made before hand your sitting there fumming and cant say anything hope you are successful but if they have it earmarked for another use there will be money in the budget for that
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Just had a reply from Cllr Tom Johnston (SNP) Palacerigg is in his ward and is a place which he visits & enjoys.
I think the main point to take is that nothing final will be decided (allegedly ???) and we still have time to put together a really strong case (and the more high profile people we can get on-board the better ;)) and bombard the labour councillors with emails, since they have more clout ;)
North Lanarkshire Council, we're ready for the fight - are you ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Dear Ms. McKay, I’ll be raising this at my SNP Group meeting. It’s up to the group do decide on its overall budget proposals. We are just the Opposition,with 22 votes to the ruling Labour groups’s 40 (8 independents). While you would be allowed into the public gallery,your organisation will not be allowed to take part in the meeting – that is standard practice. I’m afraid,too,that the budget cuts will be decided on a simple, general Ruling group package versus Opposition Group package. I don’t think individual items will be contested,though I may be wrong. Meeting lengths have recently been cut (despite SNP opposition to the move) to 4 hours under new Standing Orders.
Please note that the actual Budget Meeting for NLC will only come in February,after the Scottish Government budget in the same month. This may allow you to mount a campaign in the ‘Cumbernauld News’ and elsewhere (local BBC and STV news sheets). You should keep it away from being tied to any political party: you have,in the end,to convince the Majority group.
There’s a;ready been two articles in the Cumbernauld News and SNP List MSP Jamie hepburn has supported retention of the rare breeds.
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Okay I've started a new website for Friends of Palacerigg Rare Breeds
There's not a whole lot on there that you haven't already seen, but it's a start and OH will get some pics on tomorrow (the ones we have put on are temporary and from our own flocks)
Haven't done a blog yet.....
Please pass the link to anyone who is interested or needs to get in contact : www.palacerigg.weebly.com (http://www.palacerigg.weebly.com)
Please also pass on any new info you have to me so we can get it on there for all to see - [email protected] (http://[email protected]) I could do with a better description of Palacerigg itself, or any good digital photos anyone has.
The beady eyed might notice that I have corrected the councillors email addresses which I had got wrong...
Thank you
Juliet
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I've put a link to the website on my facebook page and onto the "Friends of Palacerigg Rare Breeds" facebook page ;D
The petition has 865 signatures now, but we need more ! :wave:
Juliet, here's some info which you could use (taken from NLC's website ;))
Set in the hills to the south-east of Cumbernauld, Palacerigg Country Park is well signposted from the town centre road network. It is less than half an hour's drive from Glasgow, Motherwell, Stirling or Falkirk. Established in the early 1970's, Palacerigg has been developed around the objectives of conservation, environmental education and countryside recreation. More than 40 hectares of what was once a bleak upland farm have been planted with hundreds of thousands of native trees and shrubs.
This new, sheltered environment provides a sanctuary for wildlife including thriving populations of roe deer, badger, fox and hare as well as sparrowhawk, kestrel, long-eared and short-eared owl.
Rare breeds collection
Palacerigg's animal collection is unique in Central Scotland and provides an opportunity to see many rare breeds in addition to other friendly farm animals. Rare breeds include Eriskay ponies, North Ronaldsay and Boreray sheep, Shetland and white park cattle, Bagot and Guernsey goats, Tamworth pigs and Scots grey and Scots dumpy poultry. Many of these animals are registered with the appropriate breed society enabling us to make a positive contribution to the breed's survival.
Palacerigg's animal keepers are on duty every day of the year and every effort is taken to keep livestock in a manner promoting natural behaviour and quality of life.
Attractions in the countryside
Visit the park centre with displays, interpretative panels and exhibition area, hire the lecture theatre, or longhouses, if you wish.
Explore the nature trails and places of historic interest, including evidence of fireclay mining at Glencryan and peat cutting at Gobhar
Climb to the heights of the treetop walkway and enjoy the bird's-eye view of buds, branches and leaves.
300 hectares of grassland, moorland, woodland and ponds ensure a haven for wildlife, providing breeding sites and places of refuge
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Is there anyone in the Cumbernauld area who would be prepared to talk to the newspapers ? I've spoken to Neil McGrory this morning, but he's looking for more people's opinions. He has asked me to share his contact details -
Neil McGrory, Senior Reporter - Cumbernauld News Tel: 01236 725578
Please get in touch with him folks !
I've had a response from Karen Gillon's PA, to say that she's now aware of the situation and has taken it up with the Scottish Ministers and NLC - hooray !
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Ah - Monday morning and it's all moving at last - well done !!
More about the meeting of NLC tomorrow. The advice now is for us not to go to the morning meeting as it will be over in minutes - everything will be referred forward to the main council meeting at 2.
If anyone is going who I haven't emailed privately, we thought we would meet up for lunch before the meeting , so please contact me or Karen.
Waitng for details of how to submit the petition but sounds like it might have to 'have a report produced' on it before they can consider it. Still, please please get more people to sign up so we can push it to over a thousand signatures. They need to know we're out here.
Thank you everyone.
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We're at 902 now - have just boosted it by posting on my FB my status and removed my 'friends lock' so it will go worldwide.
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Is there anyone in the Cumbernauld area who would be prepared to talk to the newspapers ? I've spoken to Neil McGrory this morning, but he's looking for more people's opinions. He has asked me to share his contact details -
Neil McGrory, Senior Reporter - Cumbernauld News Tel: 01236 725578
Please get in touch with him folks !
I've had a response from Karen Gillon's PA, to say that she's now aware of the situation and has taken it up with the Scottish Ministers and NLC - hooray !
Thanks Karen,
I spoke to Neil McGrory (after he emailed me) and basically just backed up what you had already told him. He would like to be kept in touch with developments. He thought I lived in his catchment area, but I don't - I'm nearer Wishaw, which has it's own local paper.
I'm afraid I already know the process of Council meetings, and as previously mentioned, although the public are allowed to listen to meetings, they may not take part. However, lobbying councillors beforehand is fine!
The instant we know what decision the council has made, my OH and I will nip along to L&S at Lanark to find out when the sale is - they might already have booked it - or am I being overly cynical ?
Juliet - I don't think you're being cynical at all. This sounds like a good idea.
Cheers,
John
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Hi John - well, we've certainly done a lot of lobbying of councillors. They'll have a new lot to read from me with their morning porage !
Just had an email from Cllr Johnston saying, amongst other things "The SNP group will oppose any sell-off of the rare breeds at Palacerigg ---You will have to lobby the ruling group (labour)-- Labour hold 40 of the 70 seats on the council" This was after the SNP group had their meeting this afternoon.
Encouraging ;D
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we wont be there been to to many cooncil meetings in the past talk Shiite and decisions made before hand your sitting there fumming and cant say anything hope you are successful but if they have it earmarked for another use there will be money in the budget for that
Apologies to member "Palacerigg" and Juliet, Karen and Ruth ----- It WAS Lillian who summed up the meetings with THAT word ;D (but it COULD have been "Palacerigg"!!!)
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It was a good afternoon's work though ;D ;D ;D Thank you for being there
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obviously what i wrote has been quoted elsewhere it should not detract from the fact that the famous five led and motivated by karen has been useful in saving palacerigg my dealings with cooncils(planning commite) meetings when they have been presented with objections to developments it should not be for me to be left with the humane s*^!e to deal with with both the cooncil and sepa unable or unwilling to accept that their decisions have caused inconvenience to others rant over once again congratulations to the famous five on their success
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Hi Lillian - I have to say that you were absolutely correct about the most of the meeting..... each party used it to castigate the opposing parties on the NATIONAL economy.... the actual talking about the LOCAL economy would have taken probably ten minutes at most...... do they get expenses for length of time at meeting??? Not that I'm cynical. Anyway Lillian - I would think that you are not too far away from "my bit" near Strathaven. ;)
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i hope to be at lanark on thursday well o/h and myself are always there