The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Startingout on February 15, 2022, 10:34:24 am
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We are going to be getting sheep soon. We are going into partnership with a land owner, who will buy the sheep but we will farm them, then we will share the output (whether that be meat, sales, etc).
The land owner has a CPH number. I presume we can use that number?
In terms of the flock number, would the land owner get that or would we? We will be doing all the day to day management of the sheep. The land owner will just be supplying whatever we need to keep them.
In terms of tagging, they will come with tags and we just record that we have taken ownership?
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When you say partnership, is it written in blood or oral?
I say this as a chap I knew, went into partnership with a mate, mate owned land, chap liked the work. Both bought the sheep, chap did the work, both sold the lambs and split the money. Mate was married. Wife decided "Don't like sheep now, horses bring in cash!"
Chap told, "buy half the sheep and find somewhere else!"
End of partnership. Usually only one winner and not the chap who does the work!
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Yes, that is a risk. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. We're comfortable with the arrangement, I was just confused about the flock number issue.
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Wow, I have seen some strange arrangments wrt to sheep farming in the past, but this one sounds a really crap deal for you - you will do all the work, and then when you loose money on the whole enterprise you will not get paid a thing.... so you may end up working for zilch?
Sorry, I am mot making fun of you, but it seems to me someone is trying to take you for a ride...
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If we were renting land and buying sheep and spending money on the upkeep of the sheep, and time on the upkeep of the sheep, then made a loss, that would be called farming.
If we are not renting the land, not paying for the sheep, not paying for the upkeep, and only spending time on the upkeep of the sheep, in return for meat or sales, why is that bad? This is a way to see if we like farming sheep, on a small scale, without any financial outlay. If we don't like it, we sell/eat the sheep and walk away. I can't see the downside.
Yes, of course we'd love to have our own smallholding or even our own farm. But we don't.
I was really hoping for some advice about the flock number but I guess I'll have to Google.
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Probably the difference is that there’s another party involved which can complicate things. A written formal contract would probably be worth doing. It seems to me that the land owner is the legal owner of the sheep, yet you are doing all the legwork. You’re doing the work of a flock/herd manager but only getting paid if/when the sheep are sold? Maybe a better way of doing it is the owner taking their cut for the land/vets fees etc, then you taking your cut for the work, then splitting the actual profit after that, which will probably be very little.
The cph that the land is registered to is what you’ll use. You’d be best checking with trading standards about flock numbers but basically the land owner needs to be registered as keeping sheep. As they are buying the sheep, their name goes on the movement paperwork which you need to send back to arams once you bring the sheep home. Or that’s how I understand it.
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Thank you twizzel, that's helpful. :)
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The way I understand it is that the CPH belongs to whoever owns the field, and whoever owns the sheep is the one that needs a flock number (as their name will be on the purchase paperwork, movement forms, vet bills, sales paperwork, etc).
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It's a tricky question because the paperwork uses the term "registered keeper", which does not have to be the owner. So I think one of the reasons you didn't get a straight answer to your question is that no-one was sure!
Animal Health are usually very easy to talk to, and would probably prefer to be asked than have you do it wrong having tried to work it out by googling, so I would recommend just giving them a ring and asking them directly.
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you will do all the work, and then when you loose money on the whole enterprise you will not get paid a thing.... so you may end up working for zilch?
TBF, that's exactly the same as the deal I have, and I own the land and the sheep ;) .
Actually if you're not putting anything in except your time, where's the risk? Just beware of running up bills on medicine and kit that you'll never then get back.
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The way I understand it is that the CPH belongs to whoever owns the field, and whoever owns the sheep is the one that needs a flock number (as their name will be on the purchase paperwork, movement forms, vet bills, sales paperwork, etc).
To confuse things even more:
Dad owns a few acres with its own CPH. For years I moved sheep there and back, from my place, using movement forms even when they changed the rules meaning moving within a set distance WITHOUT paperwork (I'm a stickler for paperwork and prefer to do a CPH - CPH therefore MY CPH is free to move on, once moved off etc).
BUT, I discovered LINKAGE back in 2020, so that I could move a couple of beef animals WITHOUT the TB test (everything costs money and if it means saving £60 minimum, I'll do it!)
I have KEPT the link, so MY CPH, OVERRIDES Dads. I have to renew it every year, which is fine, but it means MY sheep can move from me to dads 4.5 miles and if I changed my mind, move back 2 days later without causing any issues regarding stoppages. (I know this as a fact its 4.5 miles as I took ewes and lambs there last year and went out twice a day for 2 weeks! I haven't used that much petrol in years!)
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Just a caution about linkages... Both ends of the link can get caught up in disease prevention zones. We had friends had their whole farm on standstill, right before their breed's major annual sale, because there was a case of TB on a holding adjoining a field they used a few miles away, where they kept some youngstock. There was 0 risk of transmission from that field to the main farm, but because they used a linkage rather than recording individual movements, there was nothing to prove that, so the entire farm was locked down. Disastrous for a breeder - and no compensation because none of their animals were destroyed.
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Just a caution about linkages... Both ends of the link can get caught up in disease prevention zones. We had friends had their whole farm on standstill, right before their breed's major annual sale, because there was a case of TB on a holding adjoining a field they used a few miles away, where they kept some youngstock. There was 0 risk of transmission from that field to the main farm, but because they used a linkage rather than recording individual movements, there was nothing to prove that, so the entire farm was locked down. Disastrous for a breeder - and no compensation because none of their animals were destroyed.
Totally agree, which is why I prefer the paperwork so one place is safe. Not only that but I've used dads CPH as a quarantine area when buying in New stock, didn't have room at mine so shoved them there. Also ideal when selling stock, shove to dads, leave them to eat grass for a couple of weeks, then take to auction.
But the link was originally for 2 bullocks. He had grass, I didnt, I only had 5 sheep at the time but the linkage was free whereas TB premovement isnt.
I kept the link last year but seeing that cattle won't be going there again, (I don't have the excess cattle or transport facilities) I don't know if I will retain the link.
Also, I had a spot check last year, asked all the usual questions, "is this all the sheep you have?" 5 scattered on a field. " No, " I replied "Got ewes & lambs a few miles away." She went scurrying through my paperwork and asked me where the movement licence was! Told her I had a link and she sighed! I gave dad a heads up to expect a visit, he's still waiting.
Don't these departments communicate?
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Ok
answers to your questions .... use owners CPH use own flock number. Sheep will come with ear tags which they keep. You tag any lambs born on site with your number.
Now a question or 2 or my own
Who is paying for vet / medicines etc ? (in my experience this is where sheep cost so much )
Renting tack is not expensive ... you could be better to rent tack and take all sheep income (if there is any!) Have you investigated this?
Do you get a say in what sheep are bought? If you are begginers I would keep away from 'commercial' large heavy breeds You could end up with masses of trouble.
Who pays for deaths?
We have land and small flock sheep ...... each year we direct sell half lambs to customers .... we make a loss every year... so in your scenario we would make a bigger loss and land owner would make £500 ish a year .
Not trying to put you off just ensuring you realise what you are signing up to.
Oh and ensure you have proper written contact which also states clearly how partnership can be folded
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The way I am reading the OPs post, the landowner is footing all the bills - purchase, feed, equipment, vet, dead cart, etc., - and the OP is paying for nothing but doing all the work. Any income is then split 50/50. Which seems like a reasonable exchange to me, at least while they feel their way into how this all works out for them.
So my cautions would be only 3, really :
1. Be clear about ancillary spend too, eg., transport, sales fees, luck money, butchery. Just so you all know where you are.
2. Check what approval the vet might need, as it is not the person looking after the sheep who will pay the bill. They won't want there to be any ambiguity (and you won't want there to be any delays) about whether you can authorise, for instance, a caesarian that may cost more than the value of the ewe or lambs. (Or even a site visit, some vets may be reluctant to visit if the caller is not the owner or an employee.)
3. In your agreement, whether it be written or not, have it very clear that either party can request a change in the arrangements after the first year, and at given points after that. And the partnership to be dissolved amicably if no amended agreement can be reached - preferably on a basis agreed now, eg., sell the sheep and split ... the proceeds? or the profits? If the latter, what costs are included in the calcs? That way, hopefully no-one ever gets disgruntled and feels taken for granted, because if the deal turns out to be inequitable - in either direction - then it can be discussed and amended with no ill feeling.
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Thank you all so much for replying.
In answer to the 'who pays for....' questions, I have it in writing (well WhatsApp, but that's still writing). I'll call the landowner Bob to keep things short!:
Bob will pay for all costs. That's the outlay for sheep, transport, hedging/fencing materials, vet bills/medication, feed stuffs, supplies, adminstrative costs, equipment... everything.
Bob has said that the only time we'd be expected to pay vet fees is if we insist on limping a sheep along on expensive daily medications when clearly the right thing to do is dispatch.
We are the 'sheep keepers'. We decide what they eat, Bob buys it. We decide what sheep are bought to an agreed budget. We decide where the sheep are bought from.
When the sheep are in lamb, we decide what happens with the offspring.
The only 'payback' is that Bob has half the meat of any slaughter and if we want out at any time, we will discuss whether we sell our half of the sheep to Bob, sell all the sheep and split the money, or slaughter all the sheep and split the meat.
The way Bob sees it, they are happy to invest and we earn our half by looking after the sheep.
We have chosen, rightly or wrongly, some Zwartbles. We can't at this time go big in terms of flock, although we've already been told that someone with a field that Bob knows would be interested in us keeping sheep there, too.
I have double and triple checked that there will be no financial outlay on our part. I don't mind losing time and I wouldn't even mind losing money that is generated from the farming process, but I don't have money to plough into someone else's land.
Bob is adamant that no money changes hands. They run a barter style farm and have done for years. They have all sorts of arrangements with local people. E.g. Someone keeps bees on a section and in return they give Bob some honey.
We've already been to see some sheep and Bob gave us the money to put a deposit down on them. Bob has already paid for the hedging we've put in and bought the fencing supplies to double fence the boundary.
I genuinely think it is a genuine offer. Also, we've agreed that the review period will be quarterly, with no obligation to continue.
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:thumbsup: for every thing except :fc: for the Zwartbles , like some other breeds they can be tall long legged that never fatten or smaller more compact that will fatten and watch their FEET lameness is one of their problems
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Thanks for the heads up. I have read varying reports of them across the internet. From magnificent sheep with no issues in any way, to the worst sheep you could imagine ;D
We'll see...with a small starter flock and a small outlay, we can find out whether they work for us and change direction in a year or two if they don't.
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^ I'm not going to derail this thread with Zwartbles talk except to say yes they do vary in quality, and yes they have both advantages and disadvantages. [member=214454]Startingout[/member] - if you'd like to know more, by all means start a new thread or send me a private message.