The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Hilarysmum on November 26, 2010, 01:19:12 pm
-
I apologise if this offends. See picture at bottom of page.
http://www.rivercottage.net/forum/ask/pigs/29053micro-pigs-mini-pigs-one-law-for-us/p:33/
-
This is a major concern of mine too :(
In the UK THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'MINI/MICRO/TEACUP' PIG - the smallest recognised breed is the Kune Kune, unscrupulous breeders (or those with not enough experience/sense to be breeding) are charging crazy amounts of money for what is basically a mongrel >:(
One site quotes that they are a mix of Kune Kune, Tamworth and GOS - now let me ask you, if you crossed a yorkie, a labrador and a doberman (for example) you would never sell the pups by saying they were going to be smaller than the yorkie, people would realise the genetics of the breeding and know that they'd likely end up the size of the lab. So why do people believe that 'micro' pigs are any different >:(
Another VERY worrying thing is that they recommend ENTIRE boars as good pets - duh ! Can you imagine ? The amount of people who are already re-homing micro's because they've gotten too big is unbelieveable (or maybe they finally realised that pigs are better outside, after they've had their houses trashed) I fear that it's only a matter of time before some poor baby or child is seriously injured by a frustrated, sad, house pig - and then there will be a witch hunt, pigs will be given the same press as 'dangerous' dogs (IMHO there are NO 'bad' animals, only bad, or ignorant owners)
I don't want to cause offence either BUT.....................
Pigs are NOT indoor creatures and if you really want small pigs (cos a single pig will be desperately unhappy, and despite what these 'expert breeders' say - a dog is NOT the same as another pig interms of companionship) then buy Kune Kunes, at least you know the bloodlines, can be more certain about temprament and eventual size and more to the point, won't be creating a demand for the 'latest craze'
Sorry, rant over :-[
Karen x
-
well what can i say that is not going to offend here goes happy hippy i can see how you are advocating kune kunes when you have them nothing wrong in that the amount of idiots that have asked us about this is unreal and willing to pay over the odds for them£400+ and don't believe you when informed they are stupid it is my belief that you have to have land to get a holding no before buying any pig therefore it is a government induced problem i would not be happy if these urban pig nutters were responsible for the next major disease outbreak we do not sell entire boars unless it is for breeding this is just our preference and to stop boars not up to standard breeding now for the real slash and burn the river cottage site depicting to pig this is what i would refer to as an ill doer and if that is showcasing pigs they should be prosecuted and baned for life from keeping any animals as to pigmans contribution best not typing any more
-
I just want to say that I don't charge £400 for a Kune Kune weaner. I actually think that from next year, I'll be dropping prices to be more in line with what people expect to pay for a pedigree rare breed weaner - though I expect the folks at the BKKPS who charge 'through the noses' prices may not be terribly happy with me ::)
My main point with the Kunes is that there's established bloodlines, and they can be shown to be reliably smaller than other breeds (not a pick 'n' mix pedigree that's not documented)
The fact that people in urban houses and flats can get CPH numbers definately doesn't mean I'm going to sell them a pig ! Far from it, I have turned away sales to such people, and people who don't listen and take on the advice about the amount of land and space needed, and the people wanting just one pig, when they don't have any already. I'd like to think I'm a decent pig keeper and wouldn't sell piglets to someone who wasn't going to look after them properly. That's probably why I've got a couple of boys left :-\ but at least I can sleep at night, and look forward to some very tasty Kune Kune pork next summer ;)
As to the entire boars, I do the same as you Lillian - only the best ones keep their bits if they are going to an experienced home to breed. But the mini pig breeders advocate NOT having them castrated ??? And I wonder how many of the 'mini' keepers know that in the event of a FMD outbreak, their beloved housepet might have to be culled, bet the breeders don't tell them that when they're taking their hard earned cash off them :o
Oh, I'm going to stop now before my head bursts ! See ya x
-
i was not meaning you take £400 if you could get that i would still have them that is the alleged price mini pigs are selling at also on fmd it is the rare breeds registered with bpa that will not be destroyed there is nothing that the bkkps can do other than exclude you they tried to run a cartell but the oft steeped in
-
I've heard of people paying up to £1500 for the mini pigs :o and there was a young girl at my daughter's school who's parents bought her 2 at a cost of £650 EACH ! I'm sorry, but the phrase "more money than sense" springs to mind ::) Three days after getting them home, one died :( 6 months down the line and the other one was advertised for sale (think the novelty had worn off >:()
My Berkshires are registered with the BPA and once I get my Large Blacks or OSB's they'll be registered too ;D, I've only got 4 breeding Kune's (which obviously aren't registered with the BPA cos they're not British, but still rare ???) so in the worst case scenario I'd (hopefully) only have to cull them :'( :'( :'( - but I'm hoping and praying that urban keepers ARE sticking to the same strict rules and regs with regard to feeding, or else they could potentially bring massive problems for all the pig keepers in the UK. I saw the thing about the BKKPS and their cartell - I try not to get too involved in the politics of pig keepers, I just like keeping pigs ;D They certainly don't give me as much grief as my kids (and very little backchat too ;)) ;D ;D ;D
-
the spoiled little bitch from charlie and the chocolate factory springs to mind should we not be campaining to stop this practise as they are definitely not pets yes you can have a sensible conversation on quantum physics with them or any subject grunting in approval
-
Yes Lillian, you're right :( It's the 'I want' mindset, but in today's 'disposable' era it's not long before there's a new 'must have' and the poor little piggies (or not so little as the case may be) suffer the same fate as the thousands of abandoned dogs in rescue centres. :'( :'( :'(
I think (could be slightly off here, so don't quote me ;)) that Little Pig Farm, has had an advertising ban slapped on them, or maybe they had to change the wording used ??? after failing to provide evidence of fully grown adults @ 14 inches high, like they were claiming.
Wendy Scudamore (who I believe posted the pic on RC) is actively involved with places who try to re-home some of the un-wanted ones (you can catch all the gossip on facebook ;)) and there are tv programmes and newspapers who are starting to run stories on 'maxi' micro pigs. But the people who want 'micro pig' house pets only hear what they want to hear, you could tell them, til you were blue in the face, that their mini pig WILL grow big and they wouldn't believe you. ::)
I doubt the UK government will step in to stop the breeders though, they've not done much to help the farming community over the last few years - don't imagine it'll change now :-\
On a totally different subject - are you going to be at the Lanark sale in December ? I might try and get over if you are, I've got a feeling we could have quite a lot to talk about ;)
Take care,
Karen x
-
I was going to suggest that, you beat me to it.
-
LOL ! It's either a case of "great minds think alike" or "fools seldom differ" ;D ;D ;D
I'll pm you my mobile number and see you there, with rolls & sausage waiting ;)
-
Sorry- I am going to take this on a slight tangent, so I apologise in advance. If you have rare breed pigs registered with the BPA- they don't need to be culled if there is an outbreak of FMD? I wasn't aware of this. Is that the case for any other animals- ie registered with the RBST?
Beth
-
don't know the exact format that would be involved bpa did elaborate on this a good few years ago age +memory???????? i would imagine all animals susceptible would be preserved if memory is correct they are inoculated with fmd how that will stand with the UK fmd free i have no idea
-
Hi Beth, it's my understanding (with pigs, don't know about anything else I'm afraid) that if you're in an area where FMD breaks out, if you have registered rare breed pigs that you may be exempt from the cull. Obviously, only if yours are FMD free and I think they take into account other factors such as what breed you have and how scarce they are in your particular area, etc. I don't think it's guarenteed, but you have more of a chance of escaping the cull, in order that the rare breed bloodlines aren't lost. If it's for your goats I'd get in touch with the RBST and check with them - sorry I can't be of more help.
Karen x
-
Hi HappyHippy - that's about right, for sheep and poultry anyway. But you must register the numbers of each rare breed that you have with RBST every year. Nothing is guaranteed, but at least if RBST has an idea of how many of each breed there are they have some factual basis for their arguments in the event of disease outbreak.
Back to the micro pigs. Surely to produce smaller than average pigs of any breed they must have bred from the runts of each litter, which is bound to lead to such sad little things as the gilt on the river cottage site. It would be nice if the RSPCA stepped in but their record of protecting farm animals, such as during FMD, is atrocious. It should be well within the powers of DEFRA to stop it, but their main concerns seem to be elsewhere too.
-
Oh Fleecewife, breeding from runts is only ONE of the worrying trends for mini's :'( :'( :'(
ALLEGEDLY (got to put that bit in to save any lawsuits ;)) some breeders are encouraging under feeding - claiming that a bag of food will last for a month, while that's fine when they're 8 weeks old, by the time they get to 6 months (if they live that long) they're going to be seriously malnourished. >:(
I've heard of some breeders buying runts from litters of GOS's and the like, laughing as they loaded them into their cars whilst saying how much they can sell them on for >:(
In a lot of cases, the piglets die before they reach maturity. The bone structure stops growing, but the internal organs don't - I'm not going to go into this in great detail, but I'm sure you can figure out what happens >:(
In many cases the piglets are weaned WAY too early (to give the impression they're smaller than they actually are) which, in itself, shows that the breeders don't have a clue about what they are doing or the welfare of the pigs in mind >:(
The 'market leaders' in the world of mini-pigs claim that all their piglets are treated like royalty with cosy beds and grassy paddocks, when someone visited the place it was quite obvious that this was not the case - I've seen photographic proof of piglets/weaners in outside terrible looking runs full of muck, arcs that are too small to accomodate all of the piglets and no straw in the arcs >:(
It's my feeling that the 'mini pig' bubble is going to burst really soon, and all the 'breeders' will disappear as quickly as they appeared, with cash lined pockets, laughing all the way to the bank, while everyone else is left to pick up the pieces >:((but not the 200lb 'minis' :o)
If all of this hasn't put you off already, how about taking on one of their franchises (I kid you not) for £10,000 you'll get some breeding stock and have the back up and support of these mini pig breeders. (I'm sorry, but it's just all to 'commercial' for my liking, a way to make some cash maybe, but how can they sleep at night ?) >:(
I can feel the men in white coats coming to pick me up cos of all my ranting - I'd better stop ;)
-
From my research I have yet to find a website that shows the full grown pigs with just one exception, and that one did not show the size of the pigs in relation to the wellington boot they had the adorable looking baby standing next to. In each case they give the impression that the piglets are the full grown item.
The fact that uncastrated males are sold to people with no experience of pigs is terrifying. No matter what size the animal ends up at, its a potential time bomb, has no one warned the buyer about tusks? (To say nothing of boar scent).
I could go on and on, but thanks so much for your supportive comments, the website pictures gave me nightmares, wanted to offload onto someone. Thanks all.
-
This is horrendous >:( Is anything 'official' being done or are they ignoring it totally? It sounds like out and out cruelty to the animals concerned. I haven't seen the websites but I have heard elsewhere of peoples concerns over this trade. Now you've got me incensed too....
-
So far (as far as I know) the only official action that's been taken is to change the wording on their websites/adverts. Nobody in government seems to care or want to stop the breeders - hardly surprising I suppose when you consider how they've brought UK farming to it's knees :'(
The people who are buying them because it's a status symbol wouldn't believe you if you told them all the facts, hell if the Beckhams have them then they must be okay ::) (tounge firmly in cheek btw) People only hear what they want to hear - unless there is a major campaign to educate people and tell them that in the UK there is no such thing as a 'mini pig' I doubt things will change :'( :'( :'(
And a year from now (not that it'll take that long - it's started already) there will be hundreds of pigs that have grown too big or the 'cute' factor will have worn off and they will be dumped by the people who've bought them.
Here are one or two links for a bit of info
http://www.nowmagazine.co.uk/celebrity-news/505804/katie-price-and-alex-reid-say-bye-bye-to-micro-pig-bingles/1/ (http://www.nowmagazine.co.uk/celebrity-news/505804/katie-price-and-alex-reid-say-bye-bye-to-micro-pig-bingles/1/)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/18/micro-pig-advertising-ban-asa (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/18/micro-pig-advertising-ban-asa)
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/the-truth-about-minipigs/118404678171148 (http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/the-truth-about-minipigs/118404678171148)
The last one is a facebook page so I don't know if you'll be able to access it without joining facebook - but it's got LOADS of info and pictures and discussions. Read on, if you dare (but be prepared to become EVEN MORE outraged)
Karen x
-
I have contacted Watch Dog BBC consumer programme in the hope they will investigate this. If anyone else feels moved to contact them as well it might just encourage them to to an article on this trade.
-
That's an excellent idea Hilarysmum. Lets all do that.
I couldn't get the facebook page, as you thought Karen, but the 'celebrities' and their unrealistic ideas of their pets just reinforce my belief that all 'celebrities' (whatever that might mean) are first spaceship fodder. So now I will go and put something on the 'why do..' thread.
As for the ASA saying that they are sure people will realise that these pigs need a fair amount of care - no, people seem to be unbelievably stupid - if they haven't cottoned on to the fact that tiny piglets will grow into big pigs, how will they ever work out for themselves that they will need different care from, say, a dog. I wonder if the ASA ever seeks expert opinions to back their decisions.
Lets see what watchdog can do.
My blood pressure has gone up.........
-
I couldn't find the 'why do..' thread so I'll put it on here - why do so many people follow the cult of the celebrity? What is a celebrity anyway? The occasional film star, rock star or climber of Mount Everest might be a bit interesting, but there seem to be so many people who are famous for being famous, but don't actually do anything and yet have whole magazines and trails of housewives devoted to their mindless existences. They do do something I suppose - fall for the con adverts and start mindless fads like micro-pigs. Once it was leopards. Whats wrong with having a nice quiet pet mouse ??
-
It does make me wonder, if mini "cows" (calves) ever become a celebrity trend will people then start to keep bulls in their homes? Its no more stupid than keeping a full boar as a house-pet.
-
When you consider that an alternative to dropping a body into concrete during motorway construction (for those so inclined of course ;D ) is to feed the body to the pigs, the idea of having any full grown pig sharing a house with children is frightening, to put it mildly. I suppose Katie Price and Alex Reid (I have to admit that I have absolutely no idea who they are) showed a small bit of belated good sense when they noticed their pig was defending his food aggressively (it's a pig :pig: - that's what pigs do) and moved him on then before he ate the kids. Actually I think a full grown and frustrated boar might be more dangerous than a bull, with those immensely strong jaws. Idiocy :o
Poor pigs having lived a cosseted life, suddenly turfed back outside to reality. Maybe there's now a niche for pig psychologists to help them readjust to normal life.
I'm wondering about those SSPCA so-called micropigs looking for a new home - will everyone be shocked if they go off to the abattoir? :o
-
Oh you've got to get yourself onto facebook mrs ;)
There was an uproar when one of the breeders claimed she would re-home any pigs retured to her, only to arrange for them to go to slaughter :o
It's the whole "they're not real pigs, they're pet pigs" thing, some people have a lot of problems with that issue I think.
-
well what can i say that is not going to offend here goes happy hippy i can see how you are advocating kune kunes when you have them nothing wrong in that the amount of idiots that have asked us about this is unreal and willing to pay over the odds for them£400+ and don't believe you when informed they are stupid it is my belief that you have to have land to get a holding no before buying any pig therefore it is a government induced problem i would not be happy if these urban pig nutters were responsible for the next major disease outbreak we do not sell entire boars unless it is for breeding this is just our preference and to stop boars not up to standard breeding now for the real slash and burn the river cottage site depicting to pig this is what i would refer to as an ill doer and if that is showcasing pigs they should be prosecuted and baned for life from keeping any animals as to pigmans contribution best not typing any more
Hi Lillian, not too sure what I have said to upset you here or am I missing what you are saying.
-
not to sure myself as often happens a quote or line is highlit ed and taken out of context and implies something different what subject was the quote from???? once i know that i will endeavour to answer your question in full
-
Thats ok Lillian, we can't always agree and have the same opinion in any case. I suspect though it might be something to do with me and my campaign for urban pig keeping (meat pigs not pets), as I know quite a few BPA people disagree with me on this point. Then again I might just have said something stupid on RC, I do get carried away and as you say things don't always sound as they should.
-
NOW THIS IS JUST MY OPINION the bpa should take this seriously and SHOULD be doing some thing about it (pet pigs) urban pigs they had this in WW2 did they not i am not to sure on commenting on this one there could be more ordnance in the mine field on this
-
Last conversation I had with marcus was that he recognised people wanted to keep pigs in a urban setting as does Richard Lutwyche in his book where he does say that it is ok to keep pigs in a garden as long as things were done properly. This of course should be the case, country or urban.
I have had many an argument with breeders on this and I try and see it from both sides.
In my opinion one of the problems is that the first thing that springs to breeders minds when you talk urban settings is that the pigs are kept in back yards with owners not having a clue about pig management and that they will probably be the next cause of a disease outbreak. And that city people are all morons who don't know about the ways of countryfolk and their animals. Now I agree this probably does go on, although lets hope there is no disease outbreak. But banning livestock from an urban setting won't ever stop the spread of disease. F&M both times did not start in a town, the first time it started with country folk. So to argue this point is fruitless. There is always going to be irresponsible people. But there is definately a place in the cities for pigs, chickens, bees etc.
However let me just put a few points forward.
a. People in cities are not always brainless when it comes to animal managment. many including myself when I lived in London come from the country and move to the city to get more money, however they still hanker after their own peice of the good life and care about the providence of their food.
b. Now lets take the place a pig would live in. London for instance has many large properties with gardens up to an half an acre, amply for keeping two pigs for the freezer for the short time required. Many of my country customers don't even have this much for their pigs.
c. Many urban pig keepers are more actively invlved in taking the pig from the hoof to the plate themselves. Unlike many smallholders who send their pig to the butcher to be butchered and will never smoke or cure themselves. Again many of my urban customers get the carcass back and smoke or cure their own meat as they are keen to do things themselves. Many also make their own bread and grow vegetables. Baisically they are keen to do the whole self sufficiency thing as far as possible
d. Without fail I have not come across an urban pig keeper who does not have the right equipment and the right paperwork. Obvously as I say there are people out there who are not doing things properly but so are there in the country. Many have been on pig courses, butchery courses etc. Many have the disposable income from the high wages to do things properly and spend the money with their country cousins thereby helping the very people who are criticising them to stay afloat.
e. There is just as high a risk of disease in the country as there is in the town, in fact a higher risk in the country. It is harder to hide a pig in a town but easier if you live on a farm. Two pigs in a town are more noticeable than two unaccountable extra pigs on a farm where to many people looking, they would just be one of the farm animals.
f. Many urban places we have delivered arks to are immaculate, beautiful fencing, everything tidied away. I know of many farms that are just s**t holes, pigs kept in broken down buldings, wire lying about etc etc, but hey thats ok as the pigs live in the country.
Most breeders will have sold a weaner or weaners to someone living in the town, we have sold quite a few over time and I would not hesitate to sell them again to those same people. I think it comes across as very insulting to the urbanites to say that they shouldn't keep pigs as pigs do not have a place in a city. Well they do. They inject money into those agricutural places on the edge of town which perhaps don't do as well fianicially precisely because they are on the edge of a town and more importantly by keeping pigs responsibly, they in some small way educate those around them on what is needed to keep animals. Neighbours often get inolved, looking after the pigs when the people go on holiday, or helping to make the suasages as one of my customer's neighbours did a while ago.
I have met some very BAD breeders in the country who I would definately not sell a pig to.
Sorry just to add, I am talking meat pigs not pet. I totally agree with all that is said about keeping pet pigs in a city for the rest of their lives and from experience seen, most pet pig owners treat their pig as they would a cat or dog, they don't bother with finding out what is legal etc, and many do not even know they are meant to have a movement licence. Pet owners certainly seem to have a different mindset from owners keeping pigs for meat
-
Good to see I'm not the only insomniac tonight :wave:
I agree with what you've said Pigman, I think the key here is making the distinction between pet pigs kept indoors (because owners think, oh aren't they cute and I WANT one !) and those which are kept outside and looked after in a more natural, considered and responsible manner (whether pet or pork)
I still totally disagree with the 'micro' trade though, disreputable breeders who're breeding from anything and everything, weaning too early and giving inacurate advice to prospective owners - it's not the way to do it ! Grrrrrrr >:(
-
Somebody is selling their very *profitable* 'teacup/mini pig' business on ebay.............
-
I had to look - couldn't help myself ::)
Here's the link if anyone wants to be shocked, appalled and angry :'(
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-Teacup-Pig-Breeding-Business-Very-Profitable-/190485021557?pt=UK_B_I_Business_for_Sale_CV&hash=item2c59cac375 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-Teacup-Pig-Breeding-Business-Very-Profitable-/190485021557?pt=UK_B_I_Business_for_Sale_CV&hash=item2c59cac375)
I had to come back on here to post because I was in the middle of writting to ask them why they were selling after only a year ??? Query the 15 sq meters of space they are saying you've got to have before you can buy it >:( and ask what the pedigrees were ;) and I would've probably gone into full scale rant mode...............never a good thing ! :o)
-
I had to look - couldn't help myself ::)
Here's the link if anyone wants to be shocked, appalled and angry :'(
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-Teacup-Pig-Breeding-Business-Very-Profitable-/190485021557?pt=UK_B_I_Business_for_Sale_CV&hash=item2c59cac375 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mini-Teacup-Pig-Breeding-Business-Very-Profitable-/190485021557?pt=UK_B_I_Business_for_Sale_CV&hash=item2c59cac375)
I had to come back on here to post because I was in the middle of writting to ask them why they were selling after only a year ??? Query the 15 sq meters of space they are saying you've got to have before you can buy it >:( and ask what the pedigrees were ;) and I would've probably gone into full scale rant mode...............never a good thing ! :o)
It's ok, he's going to Google Earth the prospective buyers.................What an a**hole!
Are the prospective buyers paying for some phone numbers or what?? He described himself quite well in the advert...........
A No Brainer!!!
Ian
-
obviously this is the next scam you cant sell animals on e bay so what is the £ 2500 for just the idea
-
its getting worse not bettr ??? ??? ???
-
Lillian, it has been taken off due to the fact they were trying to pull the wool over ebays eyes and were in fact including animals.
-
Good!! I did report them so hopefully if a few others did aswell that got the buggers off ebay.
Now I have teenage kids and they do tend to watch tv junk....as they do... but -The only way is Essex Christmas special - saw a lovely essex girl ::) ( no not all essex girls are like the lot on this show) being presented with a micro pig as a present.....awful, awful and will pave the way for a whole new wave of irresponsible breeders and ignorant owners.
Sorry if this has been brought up before....have not been on for a while:)