The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: Citrine on December 15, 2021, 01:10:12 pm
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I'm currently in the process of buying a property with land.
The vendors are retaining a piece of land across the road from the property and our solicitor has advised of a clause in the contract stating... “The seller will have the right to carry out farming operations on their retained land even if in doing so it interferes with your use of the property.”
Is this type of clause standard for rural property?
Would it put you off purchasing a property with this clause attached (asking in case we buy property and later need to sell it)?
Apparently they will be undertaking normal farming activities which I'm 100% happy with but solicitor has acknowledged there could be risk attached if the land is sold on as the clause will still apply.
I guess I'm really trying to determine if the stress of moving / relocating my business is making me over-react and panic! :thinking:
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Cant see how you could stop any neighbour 'farming' in fields opposite you ...... how that would impact on you I guess that depends on what they are farming ..... noise smell vehicles etc would be normal. Thye could errect a large barn in your view I guess .... but then so could any owner.
Has your solicitor given any guidance as to why this has been put in?
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The way that's worded, it sounds like "we have the right to do whatever we like, and you have no right to complain because we told you so".
I'd try to get that changed to moderate the language, so for instance: The seller will have the right to carry out normal farming operations on their retained land, provided access to the property is maintained at all times..... (etc - work with your solicitor to define what would be unreasonable behaviour on their part, and then stop them from gaining the right to do it!).
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At face value, the clause does seem a bit odd. Agri' land is agri' land allowing the owner to do whatever they wish if the use is agricultural. Both Backinwellies and Womble are right: press your solicitor to press the vendors solicitor for clarification or modification.
I am inclined to ask though; how close is the domestic part of the property (for sale) to the retained land across the road and, also, how close is the access to the property (for sale) to the access to the retained land ??
(Might be that the vendor is protecting against "city-folk" buying the property who then complain about smells, animal noises, muck etc. Folk not brought up in the countryside don't always understand what countryside living can be like and then complain about their neighbours' agricultural activities - as many forum members will know from experience ! Maybe this sort of clause will become more common post-Covid and with increasing city-to-countryside migration !?)
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I don't think the sellers would have bothered to put that clause unless they had something up their sleeves which they don't want to be open about. There are all sorts of agricultural activities which could drive you potty if they're right in your face. Intensive pig keeping for example - smell and screaming at feeding time. Intensive poultry units - the constant noise of extractor fans even 1/4 mile away can be intrusive, then there's smell too. A livery would mean lots of extra traffic, horse boxes etc. A farmer near us has decided to branch out into some kind of woodworking and we spend our Sundays trying to hide from the noise of screaming bandsaws
Were it me I would not sign unless I had a full explanation and the wording was changed by a solicitor who understands agricultural work and devious minds.
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Thanks to everyone who has replied - I really appreciate the responses.
The clause has raised alarm bells and I just wanted to make sure I'm not over reacting due to the stress of moving / a recent family bereavement and my husband's tooth extraction last week (which was probably the most stressful!!)
[member=2128]Womble[/member] and [member=152775]arobwk[/member] Yes, I did wonder if they thought we could potentially be a pain in the backside and wanted to shut down any issues before they arise.
[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] my immediate concern was that they had something up their sleeve! I did ask for confirmation and was told it would be normal farming activities. Not sure why they thought this might be an issue as we advised them that we wanted the land to graze sheep.
I think that I will have to go back to the solicitor and advise that it's the deal breaker clause :( I do worry that we won't find anywhere else we can afford as prices have increased tremendously over the last 2 months.
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Has your solicitor given any guidance as to why this has been put in?
No, he wasn't sure why it was put in either.
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I don't think the sellers would have bothered to put that clause unless they had something up their sleeves which they don't want to be open about. There are all sorts of agricultural activities which could drive you potty if they're right in your face. Intensive pig keeping for example - smell and screaming at feeding time. Intensive poultry units - the constant noise of extractor fans even 1/4 mile away can be intrusive, then there's smell too. A livery would mean lots of extra traffic, horse boxes etc. A farmer near us has decided to branch out into some kind of woodworking and we spend our Sundays trying to hide from the noise of screaming bandsaws
Were it me I would not sign unless I had a full explanation and the wording was changed by a solicitor who understands agricultural work and devious minds.
I'd like to give you two likes for that reply. Having seen a pig keeping endeavour completely stink out their near neighbours.
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I'd like to give you two likes for that reply. Having seen a pig keeping endeavour completely stink out their near neighbours.
:o I think my house purchase may fall through!!!
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....... unless you can get perfectly reasonable assurances from the seller.
Remember, they need you as much as you need them. If they really do have nothing to hide, they should be reasonable with you, since if you walk away, the next person will only raise the same issues.
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I'd like to give you two likes for that reply. Having seen a pig keeping endeavour completely stink out their near neighbours.
:o I think my house purchase may fall through!!!
But in that case there was an agricultural shed there and the smallholding across the road did not own anything on that side of the road, so that example is not directly transferable to you. It's worth considering though, because the squeals are eerie, and I would say not what you want on your doorstep.
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[member=178404]Citrine[/member] - sounds to me that your solicitor is just being lazy if they haven't already pressed the vendor's for clarification on this matter !
[Not directly related, but to demonstrate the laziness of solicitors: the vendors agents and my solicitor told me that my land was subject to "Overage" for any/all future non-agricultural developments achieving Planning Permission. That wasn't right - no one bothered to carefully read/think about the actual covenants other than me !! ]
Don't let your solicitor be lazy; really press your solicitor (or engage another) to sort out, with the vendor's solicitor, what the proposed "condition" actually means regarding your prospective purchase !
To note also that any new agri' developments involving the housing of animals within 400m of a residential building are not (normally) permitted. Extremely unlikely that, as examples, a new in-door piggery development or new over-wintering animal sheds would receive PP if within 400m of a domestic property owned by someone else. Obviously for you to check the validity of my comments above, but I offer my understandings for you to throw into the mix as you consider your prospective property purchase.
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[member=152775]arobwk[/member] Thanks for the info - I will definitely investigate the planning conditions.
I have drafted an email to send to the solicitor seeking to have the clause removed and seeking further assurance about the plans for the retained land and how it may affect our purchase.
Thanks everyone for the comments :)
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Do let us know the outcome Citrine and I hope the sellers back down about that clause.
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The vendors came back having amended the clause... they changed the word 'use' to 'enjoyment'.
We have decided to walk away as it was one compromise too many.
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Best option :thumbsup: . I hope you find your true place soon
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....... unless you can get perfectly reasonable assurances from the seller.
Remember, they need you as much as you need them. If they really do have nothing to hide, they should be reasonable with you, since if you walk away, the next person will only raise the same issues.
I think your lawyer needs to point this out to them. That this clause will ring alarm bells with anyone else trying to buy the property
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I think your lawyer needs to point this out to them. That this clause will ring alarm bells with anyone else trying to buy the property
My solicitor didn't mention it to me... I only found it because I actually read the paperwork :D
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A brave and in my view correct decision
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Seems a shame [member=178404]Citrine[/member] that you have to walk away from this property. Also a shame vendor (@ their solicitor) not being very "helpful". Last thought: is your acting solicitor local to the area where the property is for sale ? If not, I'd contact a local practice or insist on your conveyance being transferred to a local office (if company have regional offices) and see whether they are more understanding/useful in sorting out what "that clause" might mean and why vendor requires it.
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I think your lawyer needs to point this out to them. That this clause will ring alarm bells with anyone else trying to buy the property
My solicitor didn't mention it to me... I only found it because I actually read the paperwork :D
Perhaps you need a better lawyer then :innocent:
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I'd be very surprised if it isn't just intended as a "townie" clause, to protect the vendor from complaints (and possibly obstruction) about noise, smells, mud on road, etc. But I too would not be comfortable with that wording.
Conveyancers can be pretty lazy, and solicitors often use junior staff for run-of-the-mill stuff and don't always check their work... So good for you :thumbsup:, reading it through yourself as well, and spotting this. If the solicitor you're using is not used to agricultural holdings, I suggest you find one which is, and even better if in the area you are moving to, as there could be local practises it would be helpful to be aware of.
If it were me, I think I would have tried having a conversation with the seller to understand their need, explained my concerns about the wording as it stands, and then hopefully jointly got the two sets of solicitors to work on finding wording that meets the needs of both parties.
Often in a purchase, the seller has no interest in preserving a good relationship with the buyer, as they will probably never meet again. But in this case, you will become neighbours, so one would hope and expect that the seller would be willing to help resolve this or any other matter through conversation initially, so that solicitors can then be instructed to scribe something that meets everyone's needs.
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I'd be very surprised if it isn't just intended as a "townie" clause, to protect the vendor from complaints (and possibly obstruction) about noise, smells, mud on road, etc. But I too would not be comfortable with that wording.
It was the vendor who showed us around and we explained that I had working collies and wanted the land for sheep so this shouldn't have been an issue
If it were me, I think I would have tried having a conversation with the seller to understand their need, explained my concerns about the wording as it stands, and then hopefully jointly got the two sets of solicitors to work on finding wording that meets the needs of both parties.
We did stress that we were unhappy with the clause so they kindly changed the word 'use' to 'enjoyment' which actually didn't help much!
Often in a purchase, the seller has no interest in preserving a good relationship with the buyer, as they will probably never meet again. But in this case, you will become neighbours, so one would hope and expect that the seller would be willing to help resolve this or any other matter through conversation initially, so that solicitors can then be instructed to scribe something that meets everyone's needs.
Yes, that's what I would have expected. Such a clause seems a really poor start to what I hoped would be a mutually respectful and cordial relationship!
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Good neighbours are a blessing - these don't sound very accommodating nor friendly so unless you are extremely keen on this property I'd walk away I'm afraid
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Your question was " would it stop you buying the property?"
Answer - "Not necessarily".
I believe, as mentioned, they are frightened you are going to complain about them doing normal farming things like turning up at the land at midnight to check stock, noises of cockerels crowing, cows mooing, smell of muck heap etc.
But in fact a covenant on land does not remove your right to complain if the nuisance is excessive. I think it's good they have changed the wording to "enjoyment."
As said above - your solicitor is less than helpful and should have explained that the clause is irrelevant to planning or environmental health issues (the main causes of complaint) and could not be enforced without your neighbours taking legal action themselves - which is unlikely.
If it were me, and this appears to be the perfect place, in a market where perfect affordable places are like hens teeth, then I would certainly not give up so easily. The single most important thing to do now is to communicate. Go and talk to the vendors. They want to sell - you want to buy - for heavens sake just explain your fears to them and listen to theirs, and come to a compromise.
But finally - also talk to your solicitor and get him to explain just how difficult and expensive it would be for the vendors to actually enforce this clause. It does not override the law of the land and I believe has maybe just been added to persuade you (as an unknown commodity) to think twice before complaining about any of their actions.
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You really wouldn't believe some of the types we get where I live, noise complaints over church bells (that were there long before they moved in!), complaints to council over horse poo on roads, complaints about meeting tractors on narrow country lanes and complaints about mud on the roads from tractors working the fields etc all from townies. If they don't like the country then stay in the city! Some just don't want to get any dirt on their range rover "sports" status wagons that have never even seen a verge let alone been off road lol, but I digress.
The thing with mud on the road is that it can be lethal for motor cyclists and dangerous for car drivers too. I was on the receiving end of a mud on the road disaster as a pillion many years ago and was left with a potentially life changing injury - luckily for me I recovered ok. When I was growing up, a farmer's daughter, it was illegal for farmers to leave mud on the road. Several times our local Bobby would pedal his way up the hill to make sure we swept up any mud left. My father had a short temper so you can perhaps imagine the fury when he had to do it because all the men had gone home! I don't know what has happened to that law, it may still be in place, and it could be that accidents caused by mud on the road will be traced back to the guilty party. So, no it's not just 'townies' who object to that particular offence and there is a good reason for it.
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There dosn't seem to be a mention of the size of the land Do they want to keep a few pigs or carry on growing 50 acres of corn. a few years ago some Londoners moved into my friends village and with in short time the church bell could not be rang on Sundays it woke them And another lot moved into a barn conversion and tried to stop farmer from earley morning milking.So go ask what are they save gaurding.Most farmers like to chat or grumble about weather.
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Seen you've already walked away now, but just to add my 2p, I see this as fairly normal for a rural property nowadays. In effect they're saying they want to carry out their farming duties unhindered without some new "townie" moving in and saying they don't like muddy tractors around or complaining on grounds of noise etc. It's to protect themselves from any future litigation/interference with operating their business, I wouldn't be at all worried about it, it's a sign of the times unfortunately. That said some people would be worried about it and the right thing to do for them is to walk away, as you have done.
You really wouldn't believe some of the types we get where I live, noise complaints over church bells (that were there long before they moved in!), complaints to council over horse poo on roads, complaints about meeting tractors on narrow country lanes and complaints about mud on the roads from tractors working the fields etc all from townies. If they don't like the country then stay in the city! Some just don't want to get any dirt on their range rover "sports" status wagons that have never even seen a verge let alone been off road lol, but I digress.
Really ! And where, actually, do you live [member=26375]SmallholdingForSale[/member] ?
[ For others: to note that, while SmallholdingForSale cannot delete this thread, he/she has already deleted his/her thread (after being challenged) that had sought interest in 2ac of agri' land in Cornwall for £200k (obviously ridiculous) !!
Unless SmallholdingForSale comes up with a defence, I suggest we all ignore any further scammy/dodgy posts by said member. ]
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Seen you've already walked away now, but just to add my 2p, I see this as fairly normal for a rural property nowadays. In effect they're saying they want to carry out their farming duties unhindered without some new "townie" moving in and saying they don't like muddy tractors around or complaining on grounds of noise etc. It's to protect themselves from any future litigation/interference with operating their business, I wouldn't be at all worried about it, it's a sign of the times unfortunately. That said some people would be worried about it and the right thing to do for them is to walk away, as you have done.
You really wouldn't believe some of the types we get where I live, noise complaints over church bells (that were there long before they moved in!), complaints to council over horse poo on roads, complaints about meeting tractors on narrow country lanes and complaints about mud on the roads from tractors working the fields etc all from townies. If they don't like the country then stay in the city! Some just don't want to get any dirt on their range rover "sports" status wagons that have never even seen a verge let alone been off road lol, but I digress.
Really ! And where, actually, do you live [member=26375]SmallholdingForSale[/member] ?
[ For others: to note that, while SmallholdingForSale cannot delete this thread, he/she has already deleted his/her thread (after being challenged) that had sought interest in 2ac of agri' land in Cornwall for £200k (obviously ridiculous) !!
Unless SmallholdingForSale comes up with a defence, I suggest we all ignore any further scammy/dodgy posts by said member. ]
And now I see that SmallholdingForSale has also removed their post (that I quoted above) from this thread. (Of course SmallholdingForSale cannot delete my quote). Hopefully that means "bye bye" [member=26375]SmallholdingForSale[/member].
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Seen you've already walked away now, but just to add my 2p, I see this as fairly normal for a rural property nowadays. In effect they're saying they want to carry out their farming duties unhindered without some new "townie" moving in and saying they don't like muddy tractors around or complaining on grounds of noise etc. It's to protect themselves from any future litigation/interference with operating their business, I wouldn't be at all worried about it, it's a sign of the times unfortunately. That said some people would be worried about it and the right thing to do for them is to walk away, as you have done.
You really wouldn't believe some of the types we get where I live, noise complaints over church bells (that were there long before they moved in!), complaints to council over horse poo on roads, complaints about meeting tractors on narrow country lanes and complaints about mud on the roads from tractors working the fields etc all from townies. If they don't like the country then stay in the city! Some just don't want to get any dirt on their range rover "sports" status wagons that have never even seen a verge let alone been off road lol, but I digress.
Really ! And where, actually, do you live [member=26375]SmallholdingForSale[/member] ?
[ For others: to note that, while SmallholdingForSale cannot delete this thread, he/she has already deleted his/her thread (after being challenged) that had sought interest in 2ac of agri' land in Cornwall for £200k (obviously ridiculous) !!
Unless SmallholdingForSale comes up with a defence, I suggest we all ignore any further scammy/dodgy posts by said member. ]
And now I see that SmallholdingForSale has also removed their post (that I quoted above) from this thread. (Of course SmallholdingForSale cannot delete my quote). Hopefully that means "bye bye" [member=26375]SmallholdingForSale[/member].
You have sort of lost me arobwk with this. I'm not sure why you think SmallholdingForSale are scammy/dodgy? Their comment (now deleted) seemed a reasonable summing up of the issues rural communities experience when people move in from the towns. The church bells scenario happened in our next village and I have problems with visitors and newer residents not wanting to reverse on a single track lane I keep sheep on. Once someone rang a farmer after he had been muck spreading to ask him what he was going to do about the smell?
Recently a piece of agricultural land sold here at £310k for a plot just shy of 3 acres. It has no house, little chance of getting one but it did have lake frontage although it is straight into an important reed bed and being the bottom end of the lake spends is flooded in the bottom section most of the time.
Do you not think you may have been a little unfair and possibly policed out a new member?
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Actually, although I am no longer a smallholder as such I still have a few hens and quail. My next door neighbours (I moved up here two years ago) called me a few months ago to say they'd seen a rat down on the roadside and was I aware chickens caused rats :eyelashes:
I told them that my hens get their allocated food amount in the morning and that they snap it up pretty quick, that they are cleaned out regularly, and that their food bag is inside a metal bin inside my shed. I also reminded them that in Scotland we're never more than a few feet from a rat, so it was unlikely to be specifically my hens that caused them to see a rat. There are three farms at the end of our road leading out of the village
They are however happy to receive eggs when my hens are laying.
They've been in their home, just outside the village, for about 40 years, so I tend to think it was a case of me being reminded I was the 'incomer'.
So it's not always 'toonies/toonsers' who complain :innocent:
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Very disappointed for you [member=178404]Citrine[/member]. I understand your caution but I too suspect that this is a rather naïve precaution against complaints in the future from “incomers”. Either way it does underline the need to use a solicitor well versed in land transactions rather than one used to more straightforward conveyancing. I think your sellers were poorly advised too because it will put others off. I’d keep an eye on it as they may reconsider the clause.
It seems shortsighted to antagonise new neighbours before they have even moved in however we experienced such antagonism when we moved as our sellers retained some land and we were bracing ourselves for conflict as they did their best to make life difficult for us. Fortunately they have subsequently sold the land they retained so we no longer need to deal with them!
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[member=24672]harmony[/member] - SmallholdingForSale is not a new member (joined 2012). Their 1st post as far as I'm aware was the thread advertising a 2 acre plot for £200k (which thread has now been deleted). Thereafter they also deleted their plagiaristic post on this thread ! Not sure why ShFS chose to slide back into the shadows rather than answer the question about where they lived !
Why is ShFS not defending themself ?
And anyone paying £310k for 3ac of agri' land (even if poor and limited ) is just speculating hoping for development permission in the long term - they can obviously afford to wait or have in mind to go for the £2m lake-side designer home that Planners do let through if they have architectural merit (subject of course to the environmental assessments and any required mitigations). At this rate there will be no room/hope for smallholders just like there are no affordable homes left for true country folk. It will be a nation of "landed gentry" and their serfs and tenants.
No regrets here.
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Maybe ShFS doesn't feel very welcome hence their lack of replies [member=152775]arobwk[/member]?
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And perhaps ShFC forgot they were a member until they thought it would be a great idea to advertise 2ac for £200k on a smallholders' forum !!! We don't even know the land was theirs ! Does that not make you wonder ?
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And perhaps ShFC forgot they were a member until they thought it would be a great idea to advertise 2ac for £200k on a smallholders' forum !!! We don't even know the land was theirs ! Does that not make you wonder ?
Make me wonder what?
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You are just being obtuse [member=24672]harmony[/member] - so over and out.
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You are just being obtuse [member=24672]harmony[/member] - so over and out.
Good job I got that dictionary for Christmas! :roflanim:
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Actually, I was also unsure of what one was meant to wonder. :thinking:
I also had to look up obtuse in the dictionary. :idea: It can mean slow to understand.
I also read somewhere that if someone doesn't understand what you have said it is because you haven't explained it properly.
Possibly it is of minimum importance anyway - so just saying. :innocent:
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Actually, I was also unsure of what one was meant to wonder. :thinking:
I also had to look up obtuse in the dictionary. :idea: It can mean slow to understand.
I also read somewhere that if someone doesn't understand what you have said it is because you haven't explained it properly.
Possibly it is of minimum importance anyway - so just saying. :innocent:
I felt so much better this morning when I read this and realised that perhaps arobwk had been obtuse in his posts and that had reflected poorly on my intelligence. :relief:
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I think we may have wandered somewhat off topic here. Enough now?