The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: tommytink on November 03, 2021, 09:28:40 pm
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I have two breeds of sheep. The first tup (who I’ve used twice before) went in with his girls, ate and slept and laid about for two weeks, then got to work and has only tupped them once. The other tup (who’s a new yearling) went in and started marking ewes pretty much straight away. I changed his raddle and around half of them have been tupped again. Majority of the re-dos have been around the 17 day mark, apart from one. I also have three yearlings that were first done about a week after the older girls, so they’d still have their next cycle to come.
How concerned should I be about this? Not being proven I’m worried he’s a Jaffa, but could he have been a little eager? Although I didn’t think the ewes would stand for him if they weren’t cycling, could they have been too eager as well? Not planned but I ended up with a tup lamb here this year who I’m going to send in as a sweeper. I’d put him in now but I don’t want them beating the crap out of each other.
So basically do I need to be concerned??
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Majority of the re-dos have been around the 17 day mark
Is concerning, yes.
It's usual for a novice to jump everything he can in any way he can, and get marks on ewes who weren't standing, marks on heads, sides, everywhere! lol. But usually he will get most of them first time, so re-do's at 17 days are concerning, yes.
How many ewes does he have?
If the tup lamb is a decent enough chap, and/or you aren't breeding for breeding stock, I think I might be inclined to swap the tup lamb in now.
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Re-marking more than one or two at 17 days is a definite issue. I'd swap him out now, especially as you have that option without too much hassle.
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I’d swap him out as well, and get him semen tested too. Don’t leave the Jaffa tup in or he could kill the lamb. Pull him out then put the lamb in.
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He only has 13 ewes. The yearlings took longer to get marked which I understand is probably due to them being yearlings and taking longer to come into season.
Last year the same ewe got jumped on straight away and was remarked 23 days later. Exactly the same with that one this year. Another one was marked 3 or 4 days in (03 or 04/10) and remarked today, so not 17 or 34 days. Four haven’t been remarked (17 days have passed). Three yearlings haven’t got to second cycle time yet. So currently there are four that have been redone around the second cycle.
I thought I’d read about a “fake” cycle, where it’s early and they’re not really going yet but it seems like a real one. Probably wishful thinking.
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I'd say four out of 13 that you know about, and possibly more is ample cause for changing him.
The problem is, if you wait another two weeks and they're marked again, you'll pretty sure he's firing blanks by then..... but then you'll have to wait another two weeks until they can run with a different tup. That gives you a very spread out lambing period, running from early April right into May.
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I ended up with a tup lamb here this year who I’m going to send in as a sweeper. I’d put him in now but I don’t want them beating the crap out of each other.
You need to remove the first one when you put second one in.... use totally different colour marker so you can see what happens
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I had 1 ewe this year that was marked on first day, I thought enough to count as being tupped. She was remarked about 10 days later properly, so I think the tup was a bit keen on day 1 :roflanim: the cycle length isn’t always 17 days, that’s just average. But I would still take him out, get the vet to fertility test him, as if you’ve just bought him and he is firing blanks you may have cause for a replacement or compensation.
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That gives you a very spread out lambing period, running from early April right into May.
My lambing period is screwed anyway to be fair. Got five yearlings with someone else’s tup as couldn’t sell their Dad and get a replacement, and I think one of them was done a while ago but nothing on the other four. Didn’t want them to go but they use a commercial tup which made more sense then putting them to the Badger. Long story short it’s not really working out as I envisaged. Looks like nothing is!
I don’t know how I would get compo if he was infertile. It’s not like anyone told me he was, and unproven is always a risk. I’d be a bit upset if someone came back to me and wanted a refund on one I’d sold.
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If you’ve been sold a breeding ram, and you’ve bought him over the summer I.e he’s not been on your farm long; I would expect him to be able to get ewes in lamb. If he’s a Jaffa, then he’s no good.
Any reasonable breeder would stand by their rams sold, either with a replacement, or some form of refund. I bought a ram a few years ago, his first few ewes he served all returned and he failed a fertility test; the breeder offered me a sweeper ram and would have taken him back if he was a complete dud (turns out he wasn’t when we scanned them, so I kept and used him for a further year before culling him due to temperament).
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Just as an update, I slapped some yellow raddle on the little sweeper and put him in with the girls… think he was excited :D
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One of our ewes ended up with raddle all over her head last year. I still don't know who instigated that one! :o
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We made the mistake of topping up the raddle when they were all penned before we checked a couple of ewes. A couple like to keep their heads down so they had it all over their faces like yours! We were trying to clean it away from their eyes but the bloody stuff doesn’t come off!
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Can I please ask beginner questions?
Does double tapping purely mean a ewe's been tupped by two rams, when she shouldn't have let the 2nd given that she should have taken after the first?
Is the problem that you won't know who's fathered the lambs?
Is there a reason for putting the lamb tup in after the ram?
What's the significance of 17 days?
Sorry, we just put the ram in, expect ewes to cycle sometime in the following 2-3 weeks, and leave them to it, no raddle as we're not too bothered about them taking or not, and dark mouflon Soay so not sure we'd see it! Maybe we should be paying more attention to the process.
Just planning ahead as I have Boreray too and this coming winter will be my first time with tup, once I find one!
Thank you very much for your patience!
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[member=214585]Mamohau[/member], ewes generally cycle every 17 days (ish) so if they're marked by a tup on one cycle then again 17 days later, it means she hasn't held to the first service so there's a chance that the tup isn't working (fertile). If someone wants to lamb in a tight bunch, it's handy to raddle so you know the tup is working and when lambs are due. I think in the OP the relevance of the ram lamb is that he could replace the original tup in case the original tup wasn't working.
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Normally when she’s been tupped twice, it’s on 2 cycles, 17 days apart. So she’s not held the first service, so returned again. If all your ewes do this, you have a problem with the ram. She won’t stand for a ram if she’s in lamb already.
Some people use different coloured raddles to see which ram has mated each ewe.
Though if you’re not bothered whether your ewes get in lamb or not, there’s no real need to raddle the ram.
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aha, thank you very much! I must have known the 17 days then, just forgotten for the moment! I'm a bit absent-minded.
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Thinking about my own tupping errors.
If Input my ram in say 1st Sept.
Allow 2 weeks as a teaser, introducing himself. DonI guesstimate him serving them twice (or some on one date the others 17 days later if he missed 1st cycle).
I’m panicking a bit about lambing dates and if this is roughly the case, that would be helpful.
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Personally I'd assume all ewes tupped between 1st and 18th Sept. You might get a few or even most go into second cycle, but you don't want to be not watching (nor not have passive immunity established if you vaccinate) earlier.
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Thinking about my own tupping errors.
If Input my ram in say 1st Sept.
Allow 2 weeks as a teaser, introducing himself. DonI guesstimate him serving them twice (or some on one date the others 17 days later if he missed 1st cycle).
I’m panicking a bit about lambing dates and if this is roughly the case, that would be helpful.
You can't use an entire tup as a "teaser" by putting him in the same field. There's no courting no introductions. If the ewe's inseason, he'll serve her.
A teaser is a vasectomised ram - all the smell and instrincts, just no sperm. He's not a "remarkably civilised ram".
We used to "tease" our Ryelands by putting the tup in the field NEXT TO THEM for a couple of weeks. You can do that with Ryelands because they're not the most agile of sheep.
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An entire ram will act as a teaser though for any ewes not naturally cycling when he goes in, so whilst you may get a few tupped that are cycling, if any aren’t, he should bring them into season within a fortnight of being introduced with them. Next year use raddle, it makes life so much easier knowing who to watch and when! On previous years when I haven’t used a teaser and have put the ram in early (mid September) the first fortnight had a few ewes tupped and the second fortnight they really got going. Now I use a teaser and put him in mid September; the rams go straight to work as soon as they go in with the ewes on October 1st.
I would be ready for lambs as if they were served when the ram was introduced on sept 1st, but I expect they may have a quiet fortnight and then kick off a couple of weeks in.
FWIW my teaser ram still thinks he’s the real deal, he will “tup” anything that comes into season when he’s in with them, but he isn’t firing anything.