The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Equipment => Topic started by: Fleecewife on July 15, 2021, 03:25:47 pm
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It looks like we are in for something of a drought, even here in Scotland. It's great for the hay crop, which is making at top speed, but leads to a possible water shortage for us.
Our water supply is from a hand dug, 4 foot wide well, dating back to before the late 16thC, so is well silted. At the moment the water level is at about 20-22 feet down, with only 2 feet of water until we reach the silt. Ultimately we know we will have to dredge it, not sure of the practicalities of doing that, but in the meantime we are worried we will run out of water for the house. We use captured rainwater for the livestock and veggies, which is a different problem.
The well supplies our house plus an intermittently occupied flat, which usually has a lot of people staying through the summer, so our water needs will be high and the water table is low with little or no rain forecast.
Does anyone know if the water board (Scotland) will help supply water in an emergency to a rural setting, or are we on our own? If we have to sort this ourselves, presumably we need to get some sort of bowser. Where does one buy/hire such things and, more importantly, where can they be filled with potable water?
Has anyone else got similar concerns?
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Thanks for the warning [member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] - how certain are the forecasters? (I can't help with water supply matters.)
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I don't know about down where you are, but there's a large High pressure system settled over Scotland and the north for a couple of weeks at least, the Jet Stream is curving to the north of us and we have had no heavy rain for ages so the water stocks in the ground are poor, with a low water table. If you have a deep bore well or similar or have a mains supply you would be fine, but our well is very old and is on a high point so is fairly vulnerable to lowering of the water table.
Meanwhile West Germany has severe flooding with loss of life.
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It seems unlikely the water board will supply you with water as you are not a customer. However you can buy a bowser quite readily. I have several which I have bought off ebay. There are often ex water authority ones for sale and the the ones that have had drinking water in are blue. I would recommend getting at least 2000litres (Unless you have an available tap on a nearby property, where you can fill it.)
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Scottish water says get in touch with your local authority.
https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/your-home/your-water/private-water-supplies
My experience is Scottish Water are brilliant - I called them to ask about getting my private supply tested and 90mins later they had an engineer at my door even though I'm not a customer! Unfortunately they had to pass it onto the council and now I've lost all hope of ever getting some simple tests done.
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Is this a lined well or carved through the rock Fleecewife? Wells were progressively deepened over time whenever they went dry. Climbing down there may be difficult and you would need to supply fresh air.
As to the short term problem- our tap water is totally unfit to drink and we buy 60 litres of bottled water a month for that. Flushing the toilet can be done with a bucket of rainwater but washing remains a problem and we have to use the tap. The point is that the water stored is going to go 'off' I think, so you will need some for drinking. Everything else can be from the bowser.
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Here in Wales 2 years ago it became evident that if you have your own water supply and it fails you are on your own! Getting a bowser with water cost a fortune. Funny thing is if you have a bowser and fill it from a neighbour who is on mains but without a meter your water is free!! (people round here were filling from the tap in church yard ... no idea if church was out of pocket!)
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Would you have a friendly farmer who would fill and lend you a couple of IBC’s of water to keep you going?
At least to tide you over while you sort the dredging/deepening of the well?
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Thank you all - some really useful advice there.
Your link has given us a lot of info oorwullie, thank you. Once the hay is stored (today hopefully) we'll enquire from the LA as to what they can do. There was an outcry in a previous year when farmers were left with dying stock through lack of water further north.
landroverroy I looked at the bowsers on ebay but nothng round here, new ones are decidedly cute but everyone else round here is also on their own water supply or metred mains so in the same position as us, or too expensive to help with filling, so I think we would have to hire a filled bowser if it gets that bad.
Flushing with rain water isn't possible as there's no rain and what we have collected is being rationed for livestock and veggies. So flushing is also rationed. At a push we can collect buckets from the stream 1/4 mile away, but that may well dry up too. The nearest river is 1 1/2 miles but feasible to carry for flushing so not too bad.
Washing us and clothes will be the main sticking point :poo:
We will stock up with bottled water although it's against my principles!!
Sp thank you all as we now know there are ways to get through it.
For dredging the well, I think it would be best left until we have enough water available and the water table is a little higher before we start playing with that. Good idea to check with the septic tank sookers scarlet dragon.
chrismahon, the well is dug through the rock (dolorite) but lined at the top with big chunky worked stone. We assume it was once deeper and has over the years silted up, but perhaps we will find that not to be the case. We also assumed that whoever dug it had done something wrong to be given the task ;D
We have been down before the last time it ran dry 25 years ago, and we have the equipment and fear of deep holes. When I say we, it won't be me :roflanim:
I think it might be possible that after our visitors have gone and the big birthday party is over, that we can manage on what's left in the well for now, with the backup of understanding the situation better and knowing where help is available thanks to all your input. I really appreciate it :bouquet: :bouquet: :bouquet: :bouquet: :bouquet:
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Now we're looking into getting a borehole drilled. Costa fortuna I think but given the way climate change is having a big effect already perhaps that is the way we will have to go. Apparently in Britain we don't need permission
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Now we're looking into getting a borehole drilled. Costa fortuna I think but given the way climate change is having a big effect already perhaps that is the way we will have to go. Apparently in Britain we don't need permission
I expect you are right for the amount of your expected use, but just in case others with greater consumption take that at face value... I found this on the gov.uk website
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Illegal abstraction is on the increase in some parts of the Westcountry where boreholes are drilled without the appropriate permission. Prospective abstractors should first contact the Environment Agency that can advise landowners and businesses on how to stay compliant with UK legislation.
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Anyone intending to abstract more than 20 cubic metres per day from a groundwater source needs an abstraction licence. They are also likely to need a groundwater investigation consent (GIC) under section 32 of the Water Resources Act and need to notify the British Geological Survey (BGS) if they intend to drill deeper than 15 metres.
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No paperwork at all for abstracting less than 10m3 per day in Scotland regardless of borehole depth.
Drilling a borehole can be a bit stressful! There is no guarantee that you will hit water and you will probably end up paying £10k whether or not you do strike water. If you do hit water there is no guarantee what the water will be like.
For example, the company that drilled mine said they had a success rate of about 97%, good but when they have drilled 40m without finding anything you can't help wondering if you are in that 3%!
I've 2 neighbours with boreholes about 250m away from mine (in different directions) 1 has quite a lot of iron in their water, the other has all sorts of minerals which need a load of fancy filters to clean out. Mine is clean, tasty, reliable and needs no filters at all. Our water sources must all be in total different bits of geology.
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We will stock up with bottled water although it's against my principles!!
Just stock up on bottles and fill from neighbours water ....
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We will stock up with bottled water although it's against my principles!!
Just stock up on bottles and fill from neighbours water ....
Unfortunately the neighbours are not nearby and are all in the same situation with a dwindling water supply. One has metred mains for the dairy but I wouldn't ask. Husband and I both have a strong 'do it ourselves' ethic. Between the collected rainwater for the livestock and veggies, and being very restrained with the little we have in the well, we'll hobble on until it rains :raining: :sunshine: Then we'll see how investigations of a borehole go or dredging the existing well.
My son has gone shopping for bottled water today so we'll be dirty but hydrated ;D
Now I'm worried about the 150 odd trees I planted over the winter- they've had to be watered by hand a couple of times already but it takes a lot of fillups and to-ing and fro-ing so they'll have to take their chances :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree: :tree:
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Re [member=25668]oor wullie[/member] - I built a house in Aberdeenshire in 2005. Before I could start even breaking ground, I had to show that I had a suitable potable water supply for the size of house I was building(4 bed). That was a calculation done by Aberdeenshire Council. They sent me a letter stating what the minimum flow rate had to be and if there wasn't enough I wouldn't have been able to build
I had to have paperwork right down the line!
I employed a water diviner and he found water pretty much in about 10 minutes, Unfortunately it was very deep (he said about 30feet), so he went into the adjacent field again and found water again in a few minutes at, he said 13 feet. Our digger hit water at 10feet on bedrock, put down the required pipes and capped it. Then we had to have it tested and a flow rate calculated - also by Aberdeenshire Council.
We were lucky - we hit an underground stream! But we most certainly did have to have paperwork.
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I’m into divining too, though not expert have found lots of underground drains and waterways ;-)
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Re [member=25668]oor wullie[/member] - I built a house in Aberdeenshire in 2005. Before I could start even breaking ground, I had to show that I had a suitable potable water supply for the size of house I was building(4 bed). That was a calculation done by Aberdeenshire Council. They sent me a letter stating what the minimum flow rate had to be and if there wasn't enough I wouldn't have been able to build
I had to have paperwork right down the line!
Yes, I did too (I had to use a private company and submit the results to Highland Council before I was allowed to start building) but that's part of the plannig permission for building a house not the water source.
You need a water source before you build a house but you don't need a house (or anything else) before you create a (small) water source.
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So here's a thought... you have a stream 1/4 mile away - does it have a good flow? If so, you're gonna need a few hosepipes, a couple of breeze blocks or decent stones (to hold the end under the water but not on the bottom) and a bilge pump (you can get a hand pump for about £20, electric ones a bit more.
Switch the potable water to bottled for now (and you can fill them up from any number of places with a potable water supply - friends, neighbours, the local swimming baths or village shop etc - I'm sure you'll find someone willing to help you out locally) and aim to get the well cleaned out once the current issue looks like it's going to resolve (but before the water table starts to rise so you're not wasting too much water).
You can pump water from the stream to the well for now which will work for the livestock and veggies, also giving you water for flushing and bathing.
The other alternative is an IBC on a trailer or a proper bowser, drive to the stream fill up and drive back again. An IBC weighs a tonne if filled to to the top.
Unfortunately the nearby stream does not have a good flow - the source spring is in the next field so it is as vulnerable as we are. It's also where our neighbour's cattle and sheep drink so we could not deplete it further.
The good news is that it's due to rain at the coming weekend, not heavy rain so it won't reach the well, but we can increase our captured rainwater stocks enough to flush :thumbsup:
Our son went shopping for bottled water in Edinburgh yesterday - in the shops he tried, there is none :o So it seems to be a more widespread problem than we had thought.
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Have you tried Scottish Water? You never know they may give you enough to keep you going
If you can drive up here you can fill as many containers as you like. I have a few empty plastic bottles here.
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Have you tried Scottish Water? You never know they may give you enough to keep you going
If you can drive up here you can fill as many containers as you like. I have a few empty plastic bottles here.
That's really kind of you to offer Annie :) I hope it doesn't come to that, but this question is all about 'what if' so I shall bear your kindness in mind :bouquet:
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Hi, we are on mains and unmetered, so if you do get desperate and have containers, you can come and fill up here. Do you have an empty IBC that fits onto a trailer?
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Hi, we are on mains and unmetered, so if you do get desperate and have containers, you can come and fill up here. Do you have an empty IBC that fits onto a trailer?
That's very kind of you too Anke, thank you :bouquet: We have an empty 1,000 litre black barrel, but it's size is vertical so it would not be safe on our sheep trailer. I have been looking at the little tanks that lie on a small purpose built trailer, but there's no point investing in something like that if we go for a new bore hole, or even dredging the well.
I'm married to a procrastinator so we end up living by chaos management, everything at the last minute, when we could have been prepared ::). I shall pursue research after the rain returns, with allowances for climate change and see what the finances allow.
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[member=23925]chrismahon[/member] what did you mean by the bottled water would go off? Does it absorb chemicals from the plastic or is there another reason?
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The bottled water bought from the shop should be fine. We store ours away from sunlight though as a precaution. However if you bottle tap water it does contain bacteria which, as the chlorine comes out, will multiply. Stored tap water needs the addition of tablets to keep it safe to drink. I came across cases when plumbing, of pipework becoming contaminated because they hadn't been used. The solution is either a chlorine flush or replacing the pipes.
There was a post recently talking about tap water going green in storage, so clearly there are impurities in it. I know that all tap water contains Legionella. How long it takes for water to go 'off' will depend on the stored temperature I suppose.
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Hopefully you will need none of these options, Fleecewife! But it's good to be prepared :)
I thought I might share some water-saving tips from my time living off-grid, when all the water I had at my little hovel was hand-carried. (Only about five hundred yards, and flat ground, but even so.)
1. Reuse the water in the hot water bottles. (Which I still do, as a way of saving water and the processing of water, especially when on a mains supply.)
2. Freshen self using a hot flannel. You can give yourself quite a good freshen up with just half a mug of hot water. Add a slice of lemon to the water for an extra clean feel.
3. Wipe plates with kitchen roll after using and discard paper when too soiled to reuse. (Or burn on the woodstove; any fats in the food make it good for starting the fire! lol.) Leave the crocks and cutlery in used water for a soak before doing the washing up. When the soak water is too contaminated to be used for more soaking, it can be used for flushing the loo. Use minimal amounts of once-used water to wash up, then a tiny bit of clean (hot is best) to rinse off. (And collect rinsings for re-use.)
4. Set up a compost loo for wee. A bucket and some sawdust is all you really need! Have a wee, add a small handful of sawdust. If you get the balance right, it doesn't smell, and of course it's a great addition to the garden compost. If squatting over a bucket isn't appealing, you can make a seat by cutting a hole in the seat of a chair, or, for more comfort and easier cleaning, get a Kampa Khazi, which is like a regular loo to sit on (the King Khazi is the same height as a regular loo) but has a lidded bucket inside.
I had no plumbing at all, but had I had a flushing loo I would of course have flushed only when there were solids, and saved any and all used ("grey") water (no longer suitable for anything else) for flushing. Paper used for wiping after just a wee into a bin not the loo pan will reduce the need for flushing too. I guess you could also use a lidded bucket for wee, and instead of adding sawdust, then use the wee to help flush when needed.
Another option for reducing the need to flush is Popaloo bags. Poop into that, tie securely, leave it to work and then put it in the household rubbish. I use them when wild camping (or using sites with no loos) when digging a hole and burying isn't the best option. (Eg., during a pandemic, when no-one is sure if poop can carry the virus...)
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The bottled water bought from the shop should be fine. We store ours away from sunlight though as a precaution. However if you bottle tap water it does contain bacteria which, as the chlorine comes out, will multiply. Stored tap water needs the addition of tablets to keep it safe to drink. I came across cases when plumbing, of pipework becoming contaminated because they hadn't been used. The solution is either a chlorine flush or replacing the pipes.
There was a post recently talking about tap water going green in storage, so clearly there are impurities in it. I know that all tap water contains Legionella. How long it takes for water to go 'off' will depend on the stored temperature I suppose.
Actually bottled water often does contain bacteria in low amounts - it's only when it passes a certain limit that something has to be done by the bottlers :o
I understand now what you mean by going off. Our water although it comes from a well, passes through both a physical filter and a UV filter, but there are some pipes to traverse too, although they are fairly new.
So I'll bear all that in mind, thank you :thumbsup:
I grew up on a farm in the '50s and we had our own water supply. Water was pumped up from a deep well into a giant metal tank on stilts at the end of the house. This was open to the elements, so every now and then a dead bird or dead mouse would come with much spluttering from the tap into the kitchen sink. We would all 'errgh' and 'aargh' then carry on drinking the water :yuck: :roflanim:
Eventually we got the mains but water never tasted quite the same again :eyelashes:
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That's a brilliant list thank you Sally ;D . My mother was something of a health and fitness freak during WW2 and had an all over wash in icy water plus a flannel every morning, summer and winter. I am perfectly happy washing rather than showering for a day or two but then really a quick shower becomes essential :eyelashes:
We reuse water for at risk plants in the garden, but hot water bottles are truly not needed during this heatwave, cold water bottles maybe 8) . Actually we don't use water bottles any more after OH's burst one night on MY side of the bed and I was the one who had to deal with sleeping in a large puddle :rant:
There will be 11 of us tomorrow, mostly boys and men, so they can find a nettle patch to water. Ladies can use the loos but with shared flushing. Everyone is up for it. For just the day it will be fun.
We'll have a look in the well after all that and see how we're getting by.
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At last SEPA has caught on to the impending water shortage here in Scotland and is asking people to go easy on their water usage in the SW and northern parts of the country.
Here we have had some rain, with more forecast. Never as much as is expected falls, not enough to do much to the water table or even reach it. We have had none of the electrical storms and flooding that parts of the country have experienced.
Our garden pond full of koi is nearly a foot below its normal level - this time last year we had heavy rains and the pond was actually overflowing! We have installed a good water filter system so the fish are perfectly happy in their reduced volume.
Mr F still doesn't think a borehole is necessary or justifies the expense, but I do. Two stubborn minds, two different ideas of priority ;D
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Buy him "Jeanne de Florette" to read ;) (Or get the film if he's more that way inclined.)
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In the event, plenty of water falling out of the heavens here: yes, some repeatedly dry, unbearably hot (often muggy) days recently, but no drought so far down here.
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Parts of Scotland are suffering huge storms and flooding, but here on our hill the rain only started falling a couple of days ago and in slite of many storms forecast the only thunder we heard was two rumbles, and no lightning. Nice and wetting but not enough yet to make much of a difference. Some of our trees, especially birches, are really suffering and have dropped most of their leaves. We have so far collected four half 1000 litre barrels of rainwater so the main urgency of water for livestock and plants is over.