The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: wildandwooly on May 16, 2021, 12:51:16 pm
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Hello people. Advice needed please!
For those of you who have a small number of sheep and use an injection gun is this something that is worth getting even with only a few sheep and any recommendations for which one? I've just had a rather unpleasant experience despite my very careful use of it ( the sheep is fine!) with a non retractable needle given to me by one of our vets and my farming friends were not impressed with the vet..... :thinking:
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I have never used an injection gun, even when we had 100 sheep. I use disposable syringes and needles, but as I rarely inject my sheep I don't use all that many. If you use this method, keep a clean needle in the bottle, then use a different one for the injections. That way, the bottle remains uncontaminated. I have been told in all seriousness that you don't need to keep the contents of antibiotic bottles sterile because 'it's antibiotics'. You DO need to keep the contents of all drug multiple-dose containers sterile unless you are using the whole contents in one go.
As a former hospital nurse working in paediatrics, I am used to using dinky syringes and very accurate dosages, so a big clumsy gun with it's dangling tubing doesn't appeal.
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We have a sterimatic gun where the bottle attaches directly. It's only used for Heptavac, but I find the added safety afforded by the needle guard to be worthwhile.
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I use this one for the sheep- Heptavac mainly https://www.sterimatic.co.uk/shop/multi-dose/bottle-mounted-syringe-with-sterimatic-12mm-injection-kit-12mm-300-dose/ (https://www.sterimatic.co.uk/shop/multi-dose/bottle-mounted-syringe-with-sterimatic-12mm-injection-kit-12mm-300-dose/)
I tend to only use an auto injector for vaccines be it cattle or sheep, where you’re injecting a large number of animals all at once. Saves a lot of time drawing up individual doses. For one off injections of antibiotic or anti inflammatory just a normal needle and syringe.
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Not a retractable one twizzel? I seemed to have a minor issue ( luckily!) with the non retractable one I was given. It was for antibiotics.
I understand Fleecewife about the clumsiness of a gun type but I'm probably safer (and the sheep ::) with a sterimatic gun :roflanim:
Thanks all. Lesson number 1 thousand and rising.......! :hugsheep:
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I don’t really understand what you mean by retractable ? I just use a bog standard needle normally 18g 1inch and a syringe. I wouldn’t use a gun for antibiotics, in fact I think it would be near on impossible to use one. The guns are more for treating batches of animals with vaccines.
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Ok thanks twizzle. I guess it gets easier with practice like all things :thinking:
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No, I don't know what you mean by retractable either? I know you can get spring loaded needles which retract after a dose is given, but I've never seen ones which extend AND retract?
[member=210785]wildandwooly[/member] , this might be controversial, but let me throw it out there:
I really struggled with injections initially. For example, you're always told to inject into the neck because it's a nice cheap piece of meat in case you cause an abscess. However, it's also a really wriggly jumpy bit, right? So, what I do now for breeding animals is to do intra-muscular injections into what would be their bum muscle if they had bums (!?). What I mean by that is that if you feel a triangle of hip bone, top of tail and top of leg bone, then go vertically downwards right in the middle of that triangle, and you're into muscle (You might need somebody to show you the first time).
My logic with that one is that any loss due to leg meat being condemned is offset by increased convenience and safety for me when injecting. I can keep a sheep immobile against a fence or gate with my thigh and other knee, and then reach over to give the dose. Immobilising a neck is a much harder proposition.
Vaccinating lambs is similar. For wether lambs that are never going to be clipped*, I hold them still by putting their neck between my calves (facing the opposite direction to me) and then inject over the ribs. For ewe lambs, I again hold them still between my legs (facing the same direction as me) and inject them into the side of the neck.
* heptavac usually leaves a raised scar which would be nicked by the shearer.
I'm happy to be corrected on all this by others, but I find it works for me. Also critically, it means I can do these things on my own, so there's no risk of sticking a needle into my helper!
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Yes Womble I think that's what I meant, the spring loaded ones that retract after a dose is given. The needle I was given by the vet didn't do that and left the actual needle bit in the poor sheep (who was fine I hasten to add!). I was being supervised by a neighbour farmer who is an expert on giving injections and the sheep was perfectly calm, no wriggling. He said I did the injection fine and he was surprised it did that. I was in a panic but tried to stay calm and just pulled it out :(. No harm done to the sheep thank goodness but it shook me a bit :-[
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For injecting animals not intended for meat, using the 'gigot' site is the least likely to cause a problem, such as hitting nerves or blood vessels, which are deeply buried there. In the days when I was strong enough, I would sit the sheep on its bum, lean over it and draw up the chosen leg so it's bent and the muscle is relaxed and at its thickest, then inject into that. It gives you a good hold of the sheep so it's less likely to make a run for it, with your needle still in!
Subcutaneous injections go under the loose skin over the ribs, heptavac and such like (which we don't use) goes along the neck but is very dodgy to do, or I think so anyway. An addition to Womble's contortions, is to reverse the sheep into a corner, rather than just against a flat surface.
For any injection, tapping the site a few times sharply with a pointy finger seems to reduce any chance of the animal noticing the actual needle. The narrower the gauge of the needle, the slower the liquid should be injected in. Injecting fast with a small gauge needle (green for example) can damage the tissues. A larger gauge needle counter intuitively hurts less :idea:
I was writing this while you were writing your reply to Womble wildandwooly, and I see you probably don't need any hints, but I've written it all now (I type with two fingers :roflanim: ) so you're getting it anyway :eyelashes:
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In my view, the neck is for subcutaneous, never for intramuscular. As you say, you can also do sub-cu over the ribs if the animal won't be getting sheared. Or if you are giving 80ml calcium to a pregnant ewe that's gone down, you end up having to go over the ribs (because it's no more than 10ml in any one location) - but I haven't ever had abcesses at shearing time from these.
Intramuscular, I do that spot in the pelvic triangle too, Womble, having been told by the vet that it is the safest place to jag. Back of or fleshiest part of the thigh could give a condemnable abscess, and you could also hit a nerve (which is also the reason I wouldn't use the neck for i-m.) The altenative location for i-m the vet showed me is the fold of muscle behind the elbow (the bit that would be "bat wings" in an old lady ;). ) In a very scrawny ewe, sometimes there isn't enough muscle in the pelvic triangle to use. There won't be much meat behind the elbow either, but you can see where the needle tip is if you go there, and you are not at risk of scratching bone.
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In my view, the neck is for subcutaneous, never for intramuscular. As you say, you can also do sub-cu over the ribs if the animal won't be getting sheared. Or if you are giving 80ml calcium to a pregnant ewe that's gone down, you end up having to go over the ribs (because it's no more than 10ml in any one location) - but I haven't ever had abcesses at shearing time from these.
Intramuscular, I do that spot in the pelvic triangle too, Womble, having been told by the vet that it is the safest place to jag. Back of or fleshiest part of the thigh could give a condemnable abscess, and you could also hit a nerve (which is also the reason I wouldn't use the neck for i-m.) The altenative location for i-m the vet showed me is the fold of muscle behind the elbow (the bit that would be "bat wings" in an old lady ;) . ) In a very scrawny ewe, sometimes there isn't enough muscle in the pelvic triangle to use. There won't be much meat behind the elbow either, but you can see where the needle tip is if you go there, and you are not at risk of scratching bone.
I think it’s specifically Draxxin that is injected into the neck muscle in sheep- I wasn’t overly comfortable doing it but the vet chatted me through it, and actually it was very easy.
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and left the actual needle bit in the poor sheep (who was fine I hasten to add!).
Aha, that makes more sense. Just next time give the base of the needle a push and twist to make sure it's properly mounted on the syringe. Like you say though, no harm done - I thought you'd managed to inject yourself!
[member=25072]twizzel[/member] - I had draxxin for the first time this week and the vet gave no specific instructions other than IM.
[member=27736]Sally[/member] - the sheep keeping course I did definitely said everything in the neck (as it was a cheap cut), but I'm with you - "pelvic triangle" (yet another thing I never thought I'd need to type :o ).
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and left the actual needle bit in the poor sheep (who was fine I hasten to add!).
Aha, that makes more sense. Just next time give the base of the needle a push and twist to make sure it's properly mounted on the syringe. Like you say though, no harm done - I thought you'd managed to inject yourself!
[member=25072]twizzel[/member] - I had draxxin for the first time this week and the vet gave no specific instructions other than IM.
[member=27736]Sally[/member] - the sheep keeping course I did definitely said everything in the neck (as it was a cheap cut), but I'm with you - "pelvic triangle" (yet another thing I never thought I'd need to type :o ).
https://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-456997 (https://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-456997)
The datasheet does specifically say into the neck for sheep. Interesting as in cattle draxxin is subcut. I wonder if IM it can cause reactions hence advising into neck rather than rump. That’s only speculation though, I’m not a vet :thinking:
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Hmmmmm, it did seem to sting a bit, but she's still walking fine, etc.
I'll be honest, I didn't check the datasheet - the vet specifically said "standard IM for the draxxin and standard SC for the metacam", so a jist did whit a wis telt!
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IM in bum and SC in neck (only exception to me would be a slaughter lamb near to finish when I wouldnt inject in rear.)
As for retractable needles .... get a steriomatic ...... the needle cant get left in sheep it is encased in the sterilising bit. I would only use these for vaccines like Heptovac P.
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Hmmmmm, it did seem to sting a bit, but she's still walking fine, etc.
I'll be honest, I didn't check the datasheet - the vet specifically said "standard IM for the draxxin and standard SC for the metacam", so a jist did whit a wis telt!
Draxxin always stings but thankfully is only small amounts , while im in the neck is harder to do from a holding the sheep point ,once you try its fairly simple so long as you angle the syringe about 45degrees to the neck , if you are farm assured it is the method they ask you to use
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Thanks Shep, I was starting to think I'd misheard it!
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Womble I nearly did inject myself! :roflanim: I found injecting the subcutaneous one into the neck area really hard even though I had the right place and at 45 degrees and that was where the needle stayed in but when my OH checked one of the others it hadn't been pushed on properly onto the syringe by the vet :( Now I know to check myself before I inject anything!
The intramuscular one I was advised to put in the rump muscle. I know there are conflicting opinions on the best place for those to go but at least I had no problems with that one and tbh I was more concerned about getting the sheep well asap as it had been coughing for a few days when it ran towards me and had a bacterial infection according to the vet. Mine are all wethers and a fibre flock not a meat flock. It's one of two that had only just arrived. My 4 who I already had have been fine but they're on the Hep Plus regime. The two new ones hadn't been but will be asap! ::)
Thanks for everyone's help and advice. Great as usual :) :bouquet:
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Yes, I think just the angle of an IM injection makes it less likely that you'll stab yourself. However, for SC, having to "make a tent" with one hand and then slide the needle in at a shallow angle with the other makes it really easy to prick yourself if / when the sheep jumps.
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Yes quite! Pretty much exactly what happened Womble :D I still have both hands and all my fingers (just about) in one piece :relief:
You live and learn!
I still love my sheep though :hugsheep:
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Last set of heptavac doses, I did inject myself, or at least, put the needle in my finger. Fortunately it was a clean needle, before I'd started doing any sheep, but it went right into the knuckle, swelled up something rotten and involved a trip to A&E plus some awkward conversations with the doctors.
I'd been umming and aahing about whether to use the guard or not. Guess I'll be using it in the future.
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BTW, a top tip for sterimatic type injection guns - they will actually work without the sterilisation cap, with a standard 1" disposable needle. OK, that doesn't give you a sterile injection once you start doing several sheep, but it does give you the added safety of the spring loaded guard.
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Ooh ouch NI :( yes you learn pretty fast! And thanks for the tip Womble :thumbsup:
I'll be giving the 2 new ones their Heptavac P Plus soon. Hopefully with no incident :fc: Watch this space! :roflanim:
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BTW, a top tip for sterimatic type injection guns - they will actually work without the sterilisation cap, with a standard 1" disposable needle. OK, that doesn't give you a sterile injection once you start doing several sheep, but it does give you the added safety of the spring loaded guard.
I'm not quite sure why you wouldnt use a steriomatic needle but please be aware standard disposable needles start to blunt after 3 or 4 sheep and then become very painful for the rest of the sheep.
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:-[ Good to know that Backinwellies! Makes sense really. I've only been given individual ones so far but then I've got the Heptavac to do for all 6 of them in Oct.... :thinking:
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If you’re not sure how to do it, you could always get your vet to come help you the first time :D
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Hmmm yes twizzel but maybe not the last vet I had......! :thinking: ;D