The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: macgro7 on April 10, 2021, 05:30:14 pm
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What do you think is the best dog which would match the following criteria:
- will not eat the chickens
- can live outside (meaning not in the house - it can be kennel, barn etc)
- will scare predators away (foxes, badgers)
- not too big
- will not mind living with livestock (more of a guard dog really)
The best would be something like the large shepherding breeds from Central and Eastern Europe - Maremma, Tatra Mountain Sheepdog, Carpathian Sheepdog, etc but they are obviously rather large. Are there any smaller breeds that would match those points?
I'd love a Dachshund or a Shiba Inu type of dogs - but they will most likely eat the hens or at least scare them to death. Shiba would probably try to run away.
How about Lancashire Heeler? Can they be raised with livestock? Or is their cattle driving instinct too strong to get rid of?
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Can you have two or three? They're pack animals, so if not living indoors as part of the human pack, would be happier with another dog for company. Although they're maybe more likely to "get up to things" as a pair, I s'pose...
Sorry, can't advise on breed; no experience of Lancashire Heelers nor Livestock Guarding Dogs, but it sounds like the latter might suit the role, although they're all rather large.
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1. All dogs will potentially chase and kill chickens, even if they only die of fright rather than actually being killed by the dog. It is your job to train them not to.
2. There are kennels and kennels. If a dog starts life in kennel then it will learn to except it. Again it is your job to settle them in that routine. And provide a suitable kennel free from the elements etc
3. Badgers and foxes generally visit after you have gone to bed so your dog will have gone to bed too. There is no guarantee any dog will scare off either. Plenty of people have dogs and chickens and lose chickens to both.
4. I'm not sure what to suggest as I'm not quite sure what stock you have and what you really want this farm dog to do.
5. Dogs don't mind being kennelled next to livestock. Farm dogs are all the time.
Unless you can leave a dog loose all the time it is only going to manage a certain amount of "guarding" and if it is loose then it must be secure.
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We have a big problem with foxes coming at day time...
I wouldn't mind having two dogs!
They wouldn't be kept with chickens - hopefully chickens will be separated by an electric fence and quite a distance away anyway, but just in case I would dog not to treat chickens like a potential snack ;)
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We had a livestock guardian dog, well bitch, about 11 stones worth, but she had not been raised as part of a flock. They need to have been raised by a mother who lives outside with the flock, so they grow up to that life from the start. Conna loved the sheep and was happy to defend them all day, but when the sun went in, so did she ;D . So no night time guarding. (Conna was born in a council house, along with her 11 brothers and sisters, so no sheep)
In fact LGDs work in packs. There was a lovely TV programme using infra red to watch what they did and how they saw off a pack of wolves, somewhere in southern Europe. I think there were six dogs, four stationed themselves on the edges of the flock as soon as they heard the wolves approaching, evenly spaced, including 'round the back' so no part was unguarded against a sneaky wolf. The other two stayed right in the centre of the flock to keep the sheep tight to them. When the wolves got close, all six dogs barked and barked - they have very big voices, and they jumped on their hind legs to look bigger. The wolves slunk off. Apparently, the dogs rarely attack, because this tactic works, but it does need several dogs. A lone dog would be torn to pieces by a big pack of wolves. Even with the six in the film, there were several shepherds there too, watching all night.
I don't think there is an easy answer to predators of farm animals.
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We have a big problem with foxes coming at day time...
I wouldn't mind having two dogs!
They wouldn't be kept with chickens - hopefully chickens will be separated by an electric fence and quite a distance away anyway, but just in case I would dog not to treat chickens like a potential snack ;)
If coming in daytime then any breed that isnt a bird hunter will do, especially a barking one. . Collies round up rather than kill birds generally (my birds live in my garden with 2 collies.) ...but collies obviously need stimulation and ecercise or hens will become their stimulation!
You might have more luck getting a local huntsman to deal with foxes?
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Bur you live in an urban area, so your foxes will be the "urban" variety too.... they are not scared of foxes, and a bored dog may well make friends with them... The problem of "urban" foxes is quite a recent one, so I think we haven't yet bred a guard animal... I think trapping and the euthanising the fox(es) may well be a less costly solution to your problem.
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Where we are at the moment the trapping is pointless - we have a Brook in the middle of our land - foxes use it as their highway.
When one is gone, another two move in the very next day.
Some breeds of LGD guard at day time, some at night time - in Hungary they use small puli dogs to guard and herd animals at day time, once dark the large Komodor dogs wake up for their shift.
Some breeds work in male and female pairs (Central Asian Shepherd - which is a very nice dogs but very aggressive to strangers), some in groups. Som are bred to bark and scare predators away (and that's what we want) and some are bred to fight with predators.
To be fair, as we don't have wolves and don't really need to guards goats or sheep, we are really looking for a family friendly dog that would live outside with livestock and not bother them.
A dalmatian comes to my mind as such creature...
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Would you expect the dogs to be loose on your land during the day/night? Always the potential for them to get out unless the plot is really well fenced. Dogs left alone can and will get bored and into mischief....... escaping, chasing stock (even though you may train them not to touch hens that training could quickly break down if they were unattended for long periods and bored), barking incessantly (which maybe a problem in urban area)
Urban foxes are pretty smart and if there is a way in to your hen enclosure would soon learn that the dogs were locked in another section and couldn't get to them.
Farm dogs have work to do ..... not really sure what role the dogs would have in the situation you suggest.
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Or are you mainly wanting a family pet dog but one that will live outdoors?
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I had a spaniel. He lived with the chickens perfectly well, seemed to really like chicks and would lay in the sun with them all around and over him. We had no fences, he went wandering once. when I caught up with him half a mile away I told him off and he never did it again till he was senile and at the end of his days. The foxes picked off the hens in the day after we lost him. At night if a fox came he’d go out and bark but he wasn’t very brave and mostly wouldn’t go beyond the security light but I liked having the alarm of him. He’d bark once for a vehicle coming down the drive as well, also handy. I taught him to bark on very subtle command so he could seem rather vicious on the end of a lead but was as soft as dough. Living and often working alone in the middle of nowhere, I liked having a dog who could seem aggressive and barky. Spaniels are silly but very trainable and keen.
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Or are you mainly wanting a family pet dog but one that will live outdoors?
Yes actually.
I will not get any dog as long as we live in the city.
We are searching for a larger place in countryside (went to see a very promising smallholding last week and made an offer :fc: ). Only when we move out we will get one
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Sorry, to be blunt but a family pet lives with its people not in a shed or barn.
I understand that some farm dogs that work are often kept in kennels, probably because of the mess they would take inside, but it's not my idea of pets - our dogs all lived with us when we moved to our farm in Aberdeenshire.
They were shooting dogs rather than sheepdogs, and we had a boot room for them to clean off before they came into the main part of the house. We had kennels in one of our barns for when any of the bitches came in season and the boys lived there for a week or so. If we only one sex they would only have gone out there if we had to leave them overnight and someone else had to come to feed them
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Good luck with the smallholding offer :thumbsup:
I think you're a bit ahead of yourself with thinking about which dog to get. Once you have moved in and settled in and you know what livestock you will have, then is the time to look for an ideal dog to fit your actual circumstances.
Why a dalmation? They are running dogs, not livestock guardians.
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Good luck with the smallholding.
It's good to start thinking and doing some research but I agree with FW. Once you've moved in and settled in and decided on stock then it will hopefully become clearer as to what type of dog suits your needs and you'll have a better understanding of how a dog can fit into your new lifestyle ...... what you want from your dog and also which dog can live a fulfilled and happy life in your new situation.
Outdoor working dogs don't always make the best family dogs though there are exceptions I suppose.
A family dog will often be happiest being in the house with its family ... though it can spend some time outdoors in a kennel. It's a working dog too in a way ..... working at being a companion and an important job too.
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Why a dalmation? They are running dogs, not livestock guardians.
Dalmatians traditionally used toxlive in stables together with their pack - the horses. They were imprinted on horses and would run with them along the carriages.
Thought they could imprint on goats or sheep :thinking:
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Why a dalmation? They are running dogs, not livestock guardians.
Dalmatians traditionally used toxlive in stables together with their pack - the horses. They were imprinted on horses and would run with them along the carriages.
Thought they could imprint on goats or sheep :thinking:
Ah! If the dogs imprinted on the horses it was so they would run behind them; if the dogs imprinted on sheep then ran behind them, they would be chasing the sheep, or hens, or geese, or goats. The difference is that the latter are all prey animals, so being chased is not something fun, but a risk to their lives. So not protecting the animals, but persecuting them. I think a bit more :thinking: needs to go into that idea.
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Well, they used to run along or in front of horses to warn the people to go off the road
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Not quite sure what you really want M7 .
....... you state you have too many foxes then say you are moving (where foxes may not be such an issue) .
........ You want a guard dog to live outside dog but also a pet.
I agree with others .... move first then rethink needs/wants
What livestock are you planning to have on your smallholding?
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I'm planning to expand my goat herd firstly. Then add sheep. I'd love to have dairy cows but that's a long term plan...
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It may be more of a hassle introducing a dog to the goats. My goats were bottlefed alongside the dog, who dutifully curled up beside them, cleaned their faces and went for walks altogether. After a year or two the goats turned on the dog and decided he wasn’t for them anymore. I could shout and they wouldn’t headbut him but thereafter had to keep them separate there after unless I was present. Same with the geese, started off well, but ended up bullying the poor dog.
If spaniels are silly, Dalmatians are idiots. Maybe two hundred years ago they were quick witted and loyal but I’ve yet to meet a sensible one today. I’ve also posted on here for dog recommendations, I need more time to dedicate to a dog, my children take up 99% of my time and energy at the moment!
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Macgro 7 - you are never going to get a dog that does everything you require. They are living feeling creatures, not automatons. It would be nice, I must admit, but remember the phrase - "Jack of all trades. Master of none"
To me, if you get a dog that you can relate to and that is on the same wavelength as you - can you ask for more? Such a dog will always do its best for you, even if it sometimes gets it wrong. :innocent:
Sounds like at the moment your main problem is foxes. So get a lama! they are really good at chasing foxes, and some donkeys will also. I had one once that almost killed my own dog when he went into the field.
Most dogs are good guard dogs. Even when living inside they will sense or hear anything wrong outside. You can have your perimeter guarded well by sensors or cameras.
There are alternative solutions for most tasks you would like your ideal dog to do. So just get a dog that you get enjoyment from - it doesn't have to be any special breed. It s said that the right dog will find you, and I have certainly found that to be true in several cases.
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We have automatic night lights (with movement sensors) that just keep flashing the whole night just outside my bedroom - 2 sometimes 3 foxes fighting.
Unfortunately the property we were hoping to buy was sold... ridiculous when you think that it was only a 3 bedroom house with the acres. It sold for over £800k ???
Maybe we should move somewhere like Wales or Scotland. I dream of Orkney - a 300 acre farm for sale for £500k :thinking:
But what would I do for living? Parcelforce doesn't even go there...
The llama idea is fantastic I must say! I heard alpacas have the same effect on foxes - an so is the smell of their poo???
Well, dogs will have to wait for a while longer... I always wanted to have one, but my mum said nom then I moved out. Got married. And my wife said no...
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Sorry about the property. Hopefully others will come along soon. Wales is great!!!!
Once you've found your country property and things are back to 'normal' you could maybe visit some dog shows with your wife and family. Look at different breeds, talk to breeders, get a feel for what might suit you. I think that taking on any animal is much better if it's a family decision with all on board .... especially if it's a dog.
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Maybe we should move somewhere like Wales or Scotland. I dream of Orkney - a 300 acre farm for sale for £500k :thinking:
But what would I do for living? .
With 300 acres ..... i think you would be farming for a living!
you could buy a reasonable smallholding for £500K in mid wales .... pre covid this would have bought you a reasonable smallholding nearer the M4 but not anymore.
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I have still seen beautiful smallholdings for sale in Wales for that kind of price.
The one that was sold in Leicestershire was managed as lawn. 6 acres and not a single weed - no nettles, no brambles, no hedges around the ditch bordering arable fields - a blank canvas.
The entire 6 acres was regularly cut with a ride on mower.
There is another house with 7.5 acres around for sale but they want £835k for it, and it's not as good as the above one...
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In Mid Wales you would probably find a property to run as a smallholding/farm, plus holiday let's/campsite for that amount. So a farm with diversification.
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Yes. What I'm looking for really is a smallholding, to grow elveg for the family and have more space for animals than here. I gave up on my dream of a farm as a full time job and now just want it for my family.
Instead what I'm looking for is a property with buildings suitable to storage (i.e. a warehouse) and in a place where courier companies deliver from or to, for a standard UK price (I.e. Highlands of Scotland or Orkney unfortunately are a no 👎), so we can run a business from home.
The property that I was talking about earlier would have been perfect - 5 minutes for Leicester, 6 acres, 11k Square ft of former agricultural buildings, divided into 12 units - all rented out :innocent:
And of course beautifully 4 bedroom bungalow that was in a perfect state, ready to move in tomorrow.
Sounds like a perfect property for retirement, with rental income. No wonder the old owner used to cut the grass to perfection :roflanim:
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South of the Central Belt of Scotland is fine for deliveries, especially if you found somewhere near the M74. It's also within striking distance of some of the most beautiful countryside there is.
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South of the Central Belt of Scotland is fine for deliveries, especially if you found somewhere near the M74. It's also within striking distance of some of the most beautiful countryside there is.
Ditto! I'm in South Lanarkshire, Lesmahagow to be exact. 10 minutes from the M74 motorway, less than an hour to Glasgow or Edinburgh but in splendid isolation in beautiful countryside. Downside is that it's cooler and your growing season is slightly shorter than down south - but adapt your planting and acquire a polytunnel and it's totally do-able ;)
We had loads of foxes when we had our pigs and they never caused a problem for our chickens or turkeys - the smell of pig poo is supposed to keep them away, I can't say for certain that it works all the time but it seemed to for us.
Farm dog versus pet dog is a tricky situation IMHO. Farm or working dogs are a very different beast to a loving family pet as others have already said. That's not to say working dogs aren't loving or friendly.
Get a dog you like, aim for it to be a pet and if you get it as a pup and socialise it with all your livestock, giving firm training as you go and it should respect them as it grows :fc: The cleverer the dog, the quicker you'll train it.
We have two German Shepherds - great big barky scary guard dogs. Except they're not (well, they DO bark, a lot) but they are great family pets, will walk for miles or lay at your feet in front of the fire. Clever and easy to train and great big loveable lumps. Everyone has their favourites ;) Good luck with your search - pet and property.
HH
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Great thanks :thumbsup:
I heard that foxes might be intimidated by any large animals - large breed sheep, cows.
They are certainly not bothered by the goats! They just walk right past them! Goats are not bothered either!
My stupid chickens, when they saw a fox, instead of making a racket and running away, they walked towards it...
This is how I lost my last cockerel
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We rarely see foxes here (think the gamekeepers keep them under control) but on one occasion something about our chickens behaviour made me take notice. They were all heading in one direction, all very alert with heads held high. Couldn't work out what they were doing but then noticed a fox in the next field. They were literally heading like an army across our field towards him!
I can only think that the behaviour is meant to intimidate a predator, macro7. Obviously it didn't work for your cockerel though!
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We have foxes but our main problem is the badgers. Our dogs, border collie, lab cross collie and a Jack Russell live in our house. They hear everything and bark like mad if anything moves near the house and barns.During the day they are outside when we are working. We are 350 yards of the road so they more or less spend the summer outside if they choose . Only once did a fox take a chicken and that was in the late morning. It had no fear and the farmer who shot it thought it had been hand reared then let go. It was starving. Badgers are all around us andcause so much damage. We lost our ducks to the badger but things improved when we put up outside lights which are on at night. They stear clear of the buildings now. We also have CCTV which makes it easy to check outside if the dogs go off barking. They way things are going these days you are just as likely to loose livestock to people stealing.
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I'm late to this thread party!
We have ducks, geese and chickens, miniature horse, and 100 fancy pigeons, the plot has a pair of miniature dachshunds and a young Spanish mastiff livestock guardian. The daxxies are great watchdogs, and are totally safe around the poultry, it didn't take long for them to accept each other, but they will eat eggs if they get chance. They are also good vermin control, mice, rats and squirrels.
The mastiff is my new baby, excellent around all the livestock so far. An amazing pet, great around our 16 month old, albeit a bit clumsy at this stage, she is a huge breed, but very good in the house, and an excellent guard dog.
We do need very sturdy fencing though, the daxxies would go under and the mastiff would go over or through.
The hope is for goats and sheep later this year/early next year, so time will tell. We have foxes and badgers around and so far so good.
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Lovely!
Thanks