The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: OhLaLa on October 15, 2010, 03:11:23 pm
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As some of you will know I'm a bit (!) of a novice shepherd, am swotting up like mad and recently have seen a vid on you-tube saying it's ok for a ram to breed with his daughters but not grand-daughters etc.
I thought this was a big no no.
Your opinions please.
???
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Im a Novice too and that was a question that I had a few months back....most peoples general opinion is that one generation is ok but two is pushing it that is why you need to change your tup every two years as the third year will be a second generation.......as long as he was non related in the first place with his ewes!! others please feel free if you think I am wrong....cheers
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Its not illegal.
But if the only reason for someone breeding their their rams onto their daughter is because they are trying to save money by not getting a new ram in then its just plain wrong in my opinion.
I wouldnt worry too much if its happened by accident though, it doesnt mean your going to get two head on your animals :)
Ta
Baz
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I get the fact in sheep its wrong but in poultry to Line breed you put son back to mum and daughter back dad to keep type and can do this for 5 years then you run two lines and swap boys.
With My shelands I don,t want to do this would rather get a new ram every two years.
I wish I knew why but in my head it says its right
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If you look back through the sheep section you will find where this was discussed at length previously.
Basically, if you are breeding only for meat, then using a tup on his daughters/sisters/mother etc for one generation is probably not going to cause problems (but might so so). If you have a pedigree flock and are producing breeding stock, then you will be paying a good deal of attention to the pedigrees of your tupping groups to avoid inbreeding and to increase the genetic diversity of your flock as much as possible. The only exception would be to fix a certain trait by line-breeding, but you would only do this with your eyes wide open.
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I agree with Fleecewife.
We have found it difficult to get a ram for our ewes due to similar pedigrees, and it meant a 300 mile round trip to pick one up, but it is worth it in the long run; especially with pedigree sheep of rare/uncommon breeds.
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I agree with Fleecewife.
We have found it difficult to get a ram for our ewes due to similar pedigrees, and it meant a 300 mile round trip to pick one up, but it is worth it in the long run; especially with pedigree sheep of rare/uncommon breeds.
A friend of mine has just travelled to Germany to mate his pedigree bitch. I might have done the same if it had been to line breed but not for a total outcross - weird. Anyway, back to sheep. In dogs you can still breed grandfather to granddaughter but it's against KC rules to mate father to daughter, or mother to son. Strange how different species have their own breeding rules isn't it?
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I'm not a breeder of any type and it probably shows in my answer/question.
How can it be right or normal to inbreed?
Ian
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THe thought of inbreeding any animal seems wrong to me but I would be interested to hear the theories behind it.
when I took my last litter of lionlop bunnies to the petshop (a new petshop to the usual one) first question was "are they inbred at all?" - round these parts its more usual to find interbreeding than anywhere else I think ;)
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I think it would be wrong to interbreed any animal if there are known faults in the family but if the line is clear of any defects I can't see a problem.
Do you think some folk put a human angle on this?
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Yep, I'm sure I put a very human angle on it!
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Line-breeding is the mating of sons to their dams, and of daughters to their sires. It can also be the breeding of male offspring to 'aunts' (sisters of their mother), and female offspring to 'uncles' (brothers of their sire). Line breeding is practiced widely in livestock breeding. It serves to fix the genotypes of the offspring...that is, the genetic make-up of the individuals to be used for breeding the next generation. It is important to know the genetic 'content' of an individual, particularly when it is not outwardly determinable. Line-breeding is sometimes, by observation of the next generation, the only way to determine the genotypes of the parents.
The phenotype of an individual is its observable properties. In-breeding, ie, breeding brother to sister, when the genotypes of the parent stock are known, is often used to attempt to fix the phenotypes of the following generation...that is, to fix certain visible or identifiable characteristics in a strain...such as colour, skin/coat type, conformation, or behaviour.
In-breeding will also cause any undesirable traits to be fixed in the next generation, so great care must be taken when choosing breeding stock, and culling may be necessary in the offspring for the overall good of the strain.
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Well, in dogs it is slightly different. Line breeding could also include grandparents to grandchildren. The KC has recently issued a directive that 'close' linebreeding is not allowed - i.e. brother/sister; halfbrother/halfsister; mother/son; father/daughter. Interbreeding is not a term I recognise. In my opinion the above matings are inbreeding not linebreeding.
I have attached a pedigree that is line bred between 3rd generation on the Sire's side(Aberdon Sron na Ban Righ) and 2nd generation on the Dam's(Aberdon Sgurr Mhairi). The Dam's parents were also half brother/half sister. These are litter sisters bred by me. In addition, the Aberdon lines can be traced , via Fosscott, right back to the top french kennels of St Tugen - out of 64 great great grandparents, 46 have that affix. We will expect the pups all to grow up very similar, and naturally all health checks were made prior to the mating. This might help with understanding the principles.
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Line breeding could also include grandparents to grandchildren.
Of course that's correct, and I should have said that, although you probably wouldn't find that much with breeding of sheep.
With poultry it is entirely normal for many generations of pullets to be mated back to one original stock cock, and for a good hen to be used many times to her her progeny and to their's.
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Interbreeding is the opposite to inbreeding. It is the breeding of two totally unrelated animals. Unfortunately as it sounds like inbreeding it commonly used when the user means inbreeding
Rose
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I can understand line breeding in farm and working animals. If you have a sheep for instance that produces perfect wool then it makes sense to use that sheep to produce young. The same with a working dog. If they are top notch at their given activity then they should be used.
My problem is that when you restrict any gene pool which is what you do with line and in breeding, then you increase the bad news as well as the good. It seems to me that the problems may not show themselves for five, ten or fifteen generations and the benefits show themselves more quickly.
As I have a background in dogs, they bother me most. To breed for looks is flawed. Dogs should be bred for longevity, health and temperament. All dogs should have a working title before they are shown and by the way, the handlers and owners should always be made to wear the same clothes and a clowns mask so that the judge doesn't know who they are. But that's another subject ::)
When we line breed we play god. In nature, the strongest and fittest get to breed, not the ones with what we perceive to have the nicest eyes for instance.
Remember that bloke who wanted humans to all look the same? His name was Hitler. Look where it got him!
Personally, I think that it's better for animals to be fit for purpose and look different than to have a group of 'clones'
Rant over,
Ian
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Knightquest
I take your point about the strongest and the fittest getting to breed. However, a good stockman will always ensure that he is breeding from the best available to him and, if he is ruthless in his disposal (by culling or distribution) of his less than acceptable products, he should always have first class individuals from which to choose his brood stock.;)
The problems start when indiscriminate or ill-informed breeders get carried away with creating fads rather than useful qualities and properties in their stock.
Gene pools can be naturally restricted owing to geographical influence; for example, where populations of wild animals are isolated from others of their species. This has happened in parts of Africa where some prides of lions are showing signs of hereditary weaknesses, and are desperately in need of an outcross.
Outcrossing is one of the problems encountered in poultry breeding where a strain of birds has been line-bred for a long period. There comes a time, when the stock is beginning to degenerate in some way(s) owing to the length of time without an outcross. The sourcing of the outcross is, however, dependant on finding an individual which is as good as the line-bred stock, and which will compliment that stock.
Crossing out into related stock is one of the best ways to lessen the possible detrimental impact of an outcross. This is why some advocates of line-breeding will always have two or three (preferably) similar populations of basically related stock; that is, relatives with common ancestors, from which the breeder can draw an individual which has some genes in common with the stock to be outcrossed. By that means, an outcross can be used to infuse vigour and strengthen characteristics in a strain.
Playing God is, unfortunately, practiced in many breeding circles these days, not least in domestic pets. Playing God is, however, in some breeding, essential if the world is to be fed.
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Interbreeding is the opposite to inbreeding. It is the breeding of two totally unrelated animals. Unfortunately as it sounds like inbreeding it commonly used when the user means inbreeding
Rose
In dogs, which is the only animal I breed other than a few dooks 'n' chooks, that would be termed outcrossing. I might say also that I breed for temperament, working ability,as well as looks - my kennel motto is "Goodlooking AND Intelligent"
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The problems start when indiscriminate or ill-informed breeders get carried away with creating fads rather than useful qualities and properties in their stock.
Gene pools can be naturally restricted owing to geographical influence; for example, where populations of wild animals are isolated from others of their species. This has happened in parts of Africa where some prides of lions are showing signs of hereditary weaknesses, and are desperately in need of an outcross.
Playing God is, unfortunately, practiced in many breeding circles these days, not least in domestic pets. Playing God is, however, in some breeding, essential if the world is to be fed.
AengusOg,
I agree with what you say. I have selected the points above that I agree most with especially the ill informed breeders and fads bit. >:(
The African lions illustrate the problem perfectly.
My problem is mostly with dog breeders and their fads. Feeding the world is obviously important and I have to admit that I don't know enough about genetics to have a better solution.
Ian