The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: Soundman32 on January 14, 2019, 06:53:44 pm
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The property I'm thinking of buying is being sold as a house, but comes with 8 acres, and the few times we've been and viewed, there are someone's (not the vendor's) sheep grazing in the fields.
I've found the land registry web site, but not sure if that will give the information I need.
Is there a web site I can use to find out if a 'farm' is still registered as a farm?
I don't know if I want to 'farm', or do other agricultural things, but would like to know my options.
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Why don't you just ask the vendors/agent?
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If there are sheep grazing on the land then it should have a cph number - a legal requirement. If it has you don't have to 'farm' it but that doesn't mean you can do other business on it without changing use or get planning involved. The vendor might have an agreement with the sheep's owner for grazing let and you would be advised to check this with the vendor or agent. If you aren't keeping animals you might want to consider a similar agreement just to keep your grass down alternatively you might want to take a hay crop.
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It may differ in Wales or Scotland but as far as I understand it in England what you are permitted to do, or not do, is governed by the 'land use' which is a question for your planning authority. As Landroverroy says maybe best addressed to your Vendor's solicitor. It is unlikely 8 acres is all designated 'garden' or curtiledge. More likely agricultural, possible equestrian?
A related question would be is there any Single Farm Payment associated with the land and if so who is currently receiving it.
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The property I'm thinking of buying is being sold as a house, but comes with 8 acres, and the few times we've been and viewed, there are someone's (not the vendor's) sheep grazing in the fields.
I've found the land registry web site, but not sure if that will give the information I need.
Is there a web site I can use to find out if a 'farm' is still registered as a farm?
I don't know if I want to 'farm', or do other agricultural things, but would like to know my options.
You don't need planning permission to farm land. If you buy land you can graze animals or grow crops without anyone's permission. But you do need to make sure that there isn't an agricultural tenancy on the land that the sheep are on, as you may not easily be able to vacant possession. That is definitely something you need to ask the vendors or agents before going any further.
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Why don't you just ask the vendors/agent?
Property is vacant, vendors are in America.
Agent basically says 'do what you like, you'll never get caught'.
The agent said it's being sold as a 'farm in name only', but I wouldn't trust him with a barge pole.
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Why don't you just ask the vendors/agent?
Property is vacant, vendors are in America.
Agent basically says 'do what you like, you'll never get caught'.
The agent said it's being sold as a 'farm in name only', but I wouldn't trust him with a barge pole.
I can't see why it would matter? What do you plan to do with the 8 acres? Unless its something drastic like turn it into a camping site or develop it in some way? Its either farmland or equestrian, you are meant to change use if your changing from one to the other, but in reality unless your running a business from it no one is that interested.
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It may differ in Wales or Scotland but as far as I understand it in England what you are permitted to do, or not do, is governed by the 'land use' which is a question for your planning authority. As Landroverroy says maybe best addressed to your Vendor's solicitor. It is unlikely 8 acres is all designated 'garden' or curtiledge. More likely agricultural, possible equestrian?
A related question would be is there any Single Farm Payment associated with the land and if so who is currently receiving it.
Curtilage is limited to house and gardens (less than 1/4 acre). Previous owners were denied non-personal equestrian use (they could keep their own horses, but not anyone elses).
Agent says there have been no grants or other payments made to the vendors.
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Sounds alright then. As mentioned before, you do not need planning to keep your own animals, or grow plants on your own land. Maybe use a solicitor who specialises in land transfers who would check that you will be getting the land with vacant possession.
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It may differ in Wales or Scotland but as far as I understand it in England what you are permitted to do, or not do, is governed by the 'land use' which is a question for your planning authority. As Landroverroy says maybe best addressed to your Vendor's solicitor. It is unlikely 8 acres is all designated 'garden' or curtiledge. More likely agricultural, possible equestrian?
A related question would be is there any Single Farm Payment associated with the land and if so who is currently receiving it.
Agent says there have been no grants or other payments made to the vendors.
That doesn't mean the sheep owner isn't claiming, we were stitched up by our summer grazing tenant of 10 acres, claimed the payments without asking us, I know he gets twice what he pays in rent! (We hadn't known about it at the time as husband had previously told authorities he wasn't a farmer)
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The planners problem is if they grant permission for non personal equestrian it is hard for them to limit it, you could put 2 or 42 horses on it. 0 is easier for them. Should you have say four or five horses and a couple happen to belong to neighbours chances are nothing is said. The SFP had a 5 hectare minimum so the authorities seemed to take everyone (like me) with 5 hectares and magically find if you subtracted enough for pathways, hard standingnor whatever it was no longer 5 hectares and didnt qualify. But, as [member=22672]Penninehillbilly[/member] says it was possible to claim the SFP on rented land so the sheep farmer in your case may have a SFP associated with your land and you need to know if there is any written agreement that he keeps entitlement to it if the land is sold.
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It may differ in Wales or Scotland but as far as I understand it in England what you are permitted to do, or not do, is governed by the 'land use' which is a question for your planning authority. As Landroverroy says maybe best addressed to your Vendor's solicitor. It is unlikely 8 acres is all designated 'garden' or curtiledge. More likely agricultural, possible equestrian?
A related question would be is there any Single Farm Payment associated with the land and if so who is currently receiving it.
Curtilage is limited to house and gardens (less than 1/4 acre). Previous owners were denied non-personal equestrian use (they could keep their own horses, but not anyone elses).
Agent says there have been no grants or other payments made to the vendors.
We had a legal one acrea garden on our smallholding. So not restricted in Scotland to a quarter acre
I would have thought the local council would have details of what 'use' it had on it.
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I am loath to use the 'B' word, but will SFPs still exist after 29th March? :coat:
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I am loath to use the 'B' word, but will SFPs still exist after 29th March? :coat:
Does it matter? That's not really the issue. :thinking: Doesn't sound like Soundman32 is a farmer and anyway there's not enough land to claim it. :farmer: If the sheep owner is claiming it, then that is in relation to his business and won't be available to him on that land when he's not grazing it. It's fairly irrelevant to a none farmer with no entitlements.
But basically, aren't the questions - what can I do with an 8 acre field? Are there likely to be planning restrictions? To which the answers are "anything farm/ horticultural related" and "No". Anything leisure related, like camping, livery for horses would probably require planning for change of use, and is highly unlikely to be in place, or the holding would be sold for considerably more money as a business, and not merely a house with a field.
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It may differ in Wales or Scotland but as far as I understand it in England what you are permitted to do, or not do, is governed by the 'land use' which is a question for your planning authority. As Landroverroy says maybe best addressed to your Vendor's solicitor. It is unlikely 8 acres is all designated 'garden' or curtiledge. More likely agricultural, possible equestrian?
A related question would be is there any Single Farm Payment associated with the land and if so who is currently receiving it.
what did you do when this happened? Can you get them off to claim the payments?
Agent says there have been no grants or other payments made to the vendors.
That doesn't mean the sheep owner isn't claiming, we were stitched up by our summer grazing tenant of 10 acres, claimed the payments without asking us, I know he gets twice what he pays in rent! (We hadn't known about it at the time as husband had previously told authorities he wasn't a farmer)