The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: amanda on September 26, 2010, 09:42:33 pm
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Hi all, has anyone still got ragwort growing in their fields? I sprayed mine earlier in the year with Depitox, which was advised by Mole Valley Farmers, however it did not kill all the ragwort or weeds! It was a very dry spell though...and ive just this week sprayed again with the same stuff although a stronger solution and im praying it is going to work! I have loads and loads of little growths of it and i can't understand where it has all come from as i did not have much last year and as soon as it appeared i pulled it! My horses are fenced in a small area eating haylage as i cannot let them graze the fields but it is worrying me as i wanted to fertilise as the grazing is not very good. Any advice would be gratefully recieved!!
Amanda :'(
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Ragwort is biennial. It grows as a rosette the first year, and grows on and develops flowers and seeds the second year. Therefore, there are always ragwort plants in a sward, or seeds ready to germinate. It is very difficult to eradicate, particularly as seeds travel great distances on the wind..
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Oh well that makes sense then, this must be the first year of growth as they are very small with a few larger rosetts, which are harder to see and pull making it a bit of a nightmare! I thought it died off by this time of year...shows how little i know! Thank u for that info tho.. :)
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I try and get it out as soon as i see it that way hopefully it wont go to seed and spread :horse:
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I put a couple of posts on here a few months ago about ragwort that maybe of interest
First this:
"Since moving to France, I've changed my thoughts on Ragwort. Everyone in the UK seems paranoid about it. There are many many myths about ragwort in the UK. Yes it is toxic, so are many other plants that are more dangerous. I was told ragwort doesn't grow in France. So finding it growing on my land I took a sample to my vet. It was identified as ragwort Jacobaea vulgaris(herbe de saint Jacques)as I knew. The vet (biggest large animal vet in the area)had to look it up in the veterinary reference book. It was only classified as a medium risk. The book also states that between 5 and 25% of body weight have to be consumed to cause a problem. I still pull it up when I see it though."
And this:
"I do pull ragwort when I walk past it (out of habit), BUT a horse will have to eat between 5 and 25% of body weight to cause a problem. They don't eat it at all when green and only in hay. This would mean a horse would have to eat a whole bale or more of pure ragwort hay to cause any ill affects. There are more myths and old wives tails with ragwort than any other plant. It doesn't build up in the body (myth). There are so many more plants that are more toxic. Yew for example. There are no laws to control ragwort either (another myth) I don't want to cause a big argument as this isn't just my opinion but facts. So in a nutshell don't worry about a little ragwort"
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Our fields were full of ragwort when we bought them. The only sure way to clear it is to pull it out before it seeds and even then it takes a couple of years to get rid of it completely.
I remember as a child we would never complain of being bored. We were given a pair of gloves and a thistle-spudder and told to clear ragwort and thistles!
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Thanks for those comments, i suppose i better get up there then and start pulling!! >:( :horse:
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Hi - a few links on ragwort if anyone is interested
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobaea_vulgaris
http://www.ragwortfacts.com/ragwort-law.html
http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Senecio%20jacobaea
All the best
Sue
Dark Brown Eggs
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I would have thought that over the lifetime of a horse it would eat many, many, many times its own body weight!!
Remember when pulling ragwort use your bodyweight and not your back to pull it up. Grab hold of the top part of the plant and push it against you inner thigh (if they are tall enough), then lean backwards using your leg as a 'lever' - once you get the knack its a breeze!!
Ta
Barry
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Thanks, those links really interesting!
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As far as I know it is against the law to graze any animal in a field of ragwort in Scotland although no one seems to enforce the law. I only know of one horse owner who had to move his ponies and this was enforced by the RSPA Scottish Branch. Two pounds of ragwort is enough to kill a horse, having seen ponies die of this I would not wish it on anyone. My friend lost her horse a few years ago, the ragwort had been in her hay that she bought, she had been told it was ragwort free. Its also possible to make your neighbour control ragwort on their land if you are growing a crop that will be fed to animals, friend took her neighbour to court and won her case.
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Can anyone post a photo of it growing in situ so that I can look out for it.? I don't think it is a problem in my neighbourhood
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As far as I know it is against the law to graze any animal in a field of ragwort in Scotland although no one seems to enforce the law. I only know of one horse owner who had to move his ponies and this was enforced by the RSPA Scottish Branch. Two pounds of ragwort is enough to kill a horse, having seen ponies die of this I would not wish it on anyone. My friend lost her horse a few years ago, the ragwort had been in her hay that she bought, she had been told it was ragwort free. Its also possible to make your neighbour control ragwort on their land if you are growing a crop that will be fed to animals, friend took her neighbour to court and won her case.
Sorry but this is not true it takes between 5 and 25% of body weight to cause any problems and is only classified a medium risk. There are no controls either.
http://www.ragwortfacts.com/
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Strictly there isnt a law against allowing ragwort to grow BUT there is now a code of practice , the breaching of which can be used as evidence in the neglect and abuse cases brought by the likes of RSPCA.
So the code itself isnt statutory but failing to adhere to it can be contributory evidence of the wider offence. Like the 'five freedoms' it sets out what a horse should be expected to be provided for, and in this case, protected from.
In practice the stuff is everywhere, our place it had been left to run riot for 30 years before we came, so its an ongoing fight, as well as hours and hours of pulling it we are having 5 fields ploughed and reseeded as part of the battle. (Spraying is tricky with ours and nighbours well water supply close by).
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Photos of ragwort (http://www.google.co.uk/images?rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GB&q=ragwort&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi)
All the best
Sue
Dark Brown Eggs
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Thanks for the photo's. I don't think we have any but I will be aware.
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Well ive been in my field digging these tiny ragwort growths today, :( there are hundreds and hundreds of them and it has really stressed me out! Ive got another 2 acres to get through!!! Am i going to have to do this every year or does anybody know of a pesticide that kills ragwort coz the Depitox didnt!! >:(
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Barrier H is the best because you can see it working straight away and you can see which plants you have already sprayed.If you are pulling by hand remember to wear gloves as it is poisonus and can be absorbed through the skin
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As far as I know it is against the law to graze any animal in a field of ragwort in Scotland although no one seems to enforce the law. I only know of one horse owner who had to move his ponies and this was enforced by the RSPA Scottish Branch. Two pounds of ragwort is enough to kill a horse, having seen ponies die of this I would not wish it on anyone. My friend lost her horse a few years ago, the ragwort had been in her hay that she bought, she had been told it was ragwort free. Its also possible to make your neighbour control ragwort on their land if you are growing a crop that will be fed to animals, friend took her neighbour to court and won her case.
Sorry but this is not true it takes between 5 and 25% of body weight to cause any problems and is only classified a medium risk. There are no controls either.
http://www.ragwortfacts.com/
There are also other sites.
Ragwort the sense and the nonsense (http://www.swanseafoe.org.uk/ragwort-the-sense-and-the-nonsense.html)
and
Ragwort myths and facts (http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/)
Basically there is a lot of overblown hysteria which is often promoted by people with a financial interest in panicking people. The reality is that ragwort poisoning is actually very rare. The last of the sites above is written by a horse owner who thought that ragwort was evil and terrible until she asked for proper scientific advice and realised all the nonsense that was being spread around.
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Wouldn't want to risk my mules with it obnoxious little weed! >:(
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You may be right in what you say but up here farmers can be made to move cattle if they are grazing in a field full of ragwort. Also neighbours who have the stuff had to remove their horses and get it dealt with before being allowed to graze their horses. We used to be surrounded by it but now most of the farmers spray every year and keep it at bay. If you have experienced a horse dying from ragwort then you would never take any risk again. My vet is very experienced on this subject. You may think its rare but in the North of Scotland it happens in all grazing animals.
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You may be right in what you say but up here farmers can be made to move cattle if they are grazing in a field full of ragwort. Also neighbours who have the stuff had to remove their horses and get it dealt with before being allowed to graze their horses. We used to be surrounded by it but now most of the farmers spray every year and keep it at bay. If you have experienced a horse dying from ragwort then you would never take any risk again. My vet is very experienced on this subject. You may think its rare but in the North of Scotland it happens in all grazing animals.
I don't just think that it is rare I know that it is rare because it has been studied and found to be rare. There have been people stating daft figures in the press but we know from all the studies carried out here and internationally that poisoning is rare.
If you look at the Dutch website I provided to you and investigate you will find that one of the co-authors is a scientist who actually has a Phd in Ragwort.
Ragwort poisoning is non-specific.All you see are the symptoms of liver damage which has lots of causes. When Post Mortems are carried out it is then often found that ragwort ISN'T the cause but most of the time they do not bother.
A scheme to check cases like this in the Netherlands has had no cases at all since 2007!
If people are being forced to move cattle because of the presence of ragwort then they should be forced never to let the cattle out in the fresh air. Why? because they probably have a greater risk of being struck by lightning. It is a daft idea to keep cattle away from rain but it is as daft as some of the claims about ragwort.
I wouldn't have much faith in the Scottish authorities on this matter. A few years ago they published a draft document on ragwort with a really bad howler of an error in it. They could not have made this error if they had even the simplest grasp of its toxicology.
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I wouldn't have much faith in the Scottish authorities on this matter. A few years ago they published a draft document on ragwort with a really bad howler of an error in it. They could not have made this error if they had even the simplest grasp of its toxicology.
Enlighten us on this error, please.
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If people are being forced to move cattle because of the presence of ragwort then they should be forced never to let the cattle out in the fresh air. Why? because they probably have a greater risk of being struck by lightning. It is a daft idea to keep cattle away from rain but it is as daft as some of the claims about ragwort.
You can eradicate a ragwort risk easily even if you do consider it to be a low risk problem - you cant do that with rain, thats a risk we all have to take without question. Its a stupid analogy.
Anything that makes your animals environment safer is a good routine - no-matter how small the risk is.
Ta
Baz
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Get the Ragfork - it's brilliant. Persistence is the only answer...
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You do need to keep at it the plant needs to be sprayed very early when its about 5 to 15cm in diameter and less than 10cm high,pulling it out is good and makes the place look good but realy hard to get it all as some of the roots break of and then you get even more plants !!
The seeds also can lye dorment for a year or more and just when you think you have got ontop of it low and behold there nunners !!
We had a feild with a real ragwort problem and I would honestly say after a lot of research and a lot of work we are getting ontop of it.
We have used a spray called headland polo and another called loopo which thecnicily you need a spraying cert to use.
The besg way I have found is to blamket spray the area and thenm wait 10 days and get you back pack sprayer or the lance from your tow behind sprayer and slowly walk the feild spot spraying any weeds that have not started to die back but trying not to blsmket spray just spot spray this is very slow but the only way i have found to kill long established plants.
Sorry to say a peace of land with a bad ragwort problem will take between 3 and 5 years to totaly eradicate.
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Ragwort can be easily cleared in a season by grazing sheep on the land in early spring. They eat out the new leaves as they start to grow and the ragwort plants can't get growing again and just disappear. You may find a very few plants growing later in the year but these will be from the previous year's seeds. I have practised this effectively for over 20 years with no ill effect to my sheep and have even been offered free winter grazing by horse owners as a way of cleaning up their ragwort ridden pasture.
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Ragwort can be easily cleared in a season by grazing sheep on the land in early spring. They eat out the new leaves as they start to grow and the ragwort plants can't get growing again and just disappear.
Yes, I've heard this too, although we don't have any ragwort - probably because the sheep don't let it grow.
John
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But sheep are usually slaughtered before ragwort takes effect....it can take up to 4yrs.Wonder what its doing to the livers of people eating the sheep!
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The sheep I keep over winter and which eat out the ragwort are my breeding ewes that normally die of old age at @10 years +. They are seldom eaten. HOWEVER -the way it works is that like most other stock, the sheep wont eat the ragwort at the stage when you can see it. They ONLY eat the tender young leaves as they emerge in Spring so the plant is killed before its produced much growth. Therefore the amount the sheep actually take in is pretty small and that's why it doesn't affect them.
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I had the beginning of a ragwort problem on my grassland/copse when I moved in. I spent a quiet few hours pulling lots of it out two summers ago followed by a few hours pulling it out in the summer last year. I had none to do this summer! Bearing in mind I must have started with over 100 distinct plants I was quite pleased with how effective this approach was.
Summer is obviously the best time to do this job for two reasons: 1. You can enjoy the sunshine 2. You can clearly see your quarry!
Regarding disposal: I know ragwort can be a prolific re-seeder so I carefully stacked all the plants I'd pulled in one sheltered place and made sure the flowers were well covered while it all rotted down.
One thing I would say though is remember your gloves and use long sleeves and trousers.
I must admit I was quite surprised at the effectiveness of this, no chemical, approach which is why I thought it would be worth sharing with you. I may have had a particularly lazy form of ragwort that gave me the upper hand but you might be lucky too. Its worth a try. If you don't notice a significant decrease in the ragwort population in the second summer then you might need to resort to chemicals but why not give yourself a bit of time to try the manual approach first of all?
Good hunting!
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I wouldn't have much faith in the Scottish authorities on this matter. A few years ago they published a draft document on ragwort with a really bad howler of an error in it. They could not have made this error if they had even the simplest grasp of its toxicology.
Enlighten us on this error, please.
They issued a document saying "Chronic ragwort poisoning is most common as PAs [pyrrolizidine Alkaloids] build up in the liver over time."
It is clearly false. If you say this you clearly don't have a proper understanding of how the rare cases of poisoning occur. It is as a result of breakdown products of the PAs not the chemicals themselves. It also displays a poor knowledge of the toxicology of alkaloids generally. It is very obvious that they are not the kind of compounds that stay in the body.
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If people are being forced to move cattle because of the presence of ragwort then they should be forced never to let the cattle out in the fresh air. Why? because they probably have a greater risk of being struck by lightning. It is a daft idea to keep cattle away from rain but it is as daft as some of the claims about ragwort.
You can eradicate a ragwort risk easily even if you do consider it to be a low risk problem - you cant do that with rain, thats a risk we all have to take without question. Its a stupid analogy.
Anything that makes your animals environment safer is a good routine - no-matter how small the risk is.
Ta
Baz
I am afraid you don't understand risk properly. There are risks in everything. Crossing the road is a risk. Let's look at a risk that is also rare, about as rare as ragwort poisoning. Equine Grass Sickness which, to over simplyfy a bit, is related to feeding horses on grass not hay. It is difficult to know how common rare things are because one or two cases badly affect the statistics but there is, it seems, from the scant statistics reasonable to compare the two things.
This says that grass is a danger, by your definition of risk you wouldn't allow a horse to eat grass. This would be daft.
Then there is the risk of Laminitis from grass that is too rich which is a much greater risk, or the problems of obesity in horses.All the panic about ragwort is harming horses because it is distracting people from greater and more significant problems.
Here is another website for you www.ragwort.org (http://www.ragwort.org)
And here is another debunking the nonsense and showing the environmental damage that panicking over ragwort is causing.
http://www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/currentprojects/Habitats+Action/Ragwort (http://www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/currentprojects/Habitats+Action/Ragwort)
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please can i add that there many causes of laminitis not just grass, and grass sickness and also be caused by many reasons its not just as simple as eating grass, as it sounds.
ragwort poisoning is caused soley by eating ragwort,
please correct me if im wrong,
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Let me make a less emotional point. I'm far too old to stand between people throwing facts at each other, or indeed the absence of facts.
Ragwort may or may not be poisonous in the quantities that sheep or horses eat. But it is certainly not the plant of choice for either animal, along with dock and thistles. When there's good grazing the other stuff gets left uneaten. On my definition that makes it a weed because it grows in the place of something else that I want to grow there. Not only that but it is a prolific producer of seed and is well adapted to compete against the stuff I want.
So it makes perfect sense for me to spray, dig out or otherwise kill this weed. Married to an botanist I'm fully aware of the bugs that like it but the plant is very common on the five acres of unmanaged land next to me while my grazing is finite. Round here in the urban fringe its ecology is so not threatened.
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Grass sickness is not down to eating grass, racehorses that are never on the stuff have died from it, laminites, causes, hard ground, foaling, clover, line breeding can be a factor. frost and a few more. Ragwort whatever you say is something not to be taken lightly and I for one prefer to be removing this plant from my fields that risk my animals. Farmers can have their payments taken off them until they deal with what is growing on their land. Fact. I asked the farmer who I buy my straw from .
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The Weeds Act, 1959 covers it, dock and some thistles.