The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Georgie_porgie on April 04, 2013, 07:26:34 pm
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Hi all
I'll post this here as I'm not sure where exactly to post...
I really want to start a smallholding and am right at the bottom of the ladder in regards to both money and experience!!! It's been an ongoing "dream" if you could say that. I'm almost 30, live in a city and work part time in a shop so I am nowhere near smallholding at the moment.
I am saving and my other half grew up in the countryside and we regularly visit relatives there, we are also "outdoorsy" people so have no rose tinted spectacles about country life and the outdoors.
What I really want to know is where to start, obviously I need to buy some land and hope I can get a mortgage but apart from that I am totally clueless about how to turn "dream" into reality.
I mainly want to keep alpaca (for fleece and possibly breeding), dairy goats, chickens (for eggs and possibly breeding for meat) and then grow vegetables. One day I also hope to plant an orchard. I know all of this costs money to start up so I was thinking of starting small and over the years build it up into a business.
Any advice on what steps I can take would be greatly appreciated! I'm thinking of trying to get either some work experience or a job in a farm/smallholding setting although this also seems difficult (maybe I'm not pushing hard enough there!).
Anyway, that's quite a long post so sorry! (I'll shut up now) and don't hold back on the "hard reality"....I'm interested in the warts and all advice!
Thanks
Georgie
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Where are you based? Someone on here local to you may be in need of an extra pair of hands
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Oops, forgot to mention that bit, I'm in Canterbury, Kent.
Thanks!
Georgie
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I've just googled and found kent smallholders association. We have a smallholders association here in central Scotland which is great for advice, lambing courses, land management courses etc.
Have you tried your local one?
J xxx
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If you want work experience on smallholdings and farms have a look at WWOOF - http://www.wwoof.org.uk/ (http://www.wwoof.org.uk/)
It'll give you an opportunity to work at the various ventures and find out which give you the most pleasure/satisfaction as well as which might be viable business for you. It's hard to make a living from a general smallholding - most who earn their main income from it will specialise in one particular area.
This report is good reading if your ultimate aim is to make a living from a small acreage:
http://ecologicalland.coop/projects-small-successful (http://ecologicalland.coop/projects-small-successful)
(Report PDF here: http://ecologicalland.coop/sites/ecologicalland.coop/files/Small_is_Successful.pdf (http://ecologicalland.coop/sites/ecologicalland.coop/files/Small_is_Successful.pdf))
Hope this helps. Good luck with it, and keep us posted on your progress. :)
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Yes - agree with Dan. WWOOFing is a good way to get an idea of the crazy, delightful world of smallholding. We take WWOOFers and would be delighted to have you. We are in mid-Wales.
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One of my boars went to live in Canterbury. If you like, I could dig out the details of the (very nice) buyers and ask if you could pop along to their smallholding and give a hand/learn about the highs and lows.
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I'm just down the road from you (Brabourne, between Canterbury, Ashford and Folkestone) so you're welcome to pop over here although I have none of the four legged variety (and have decided to steer clear for now). We moved in last year and I've got chickens, ducks, geese, veges, fruit trees old and new and bees coming soon. We've just had planning permission for a holiday cottage approved (yay!) and to be honest the income from that will eclipse everything else! I've just been doing my sums and the eggs are still costing over £2 each, ignoring the initial set-up costs of the run and housing. Given that I'll be selling them for £1.30 a half dozen, I'll make over £11 loss per pack which gives you an idea of the financial challenges of living the dream. Best way to start is buy a place with a bit of land and gradually build up, imho. I have the luxury of a husband working hard in London to finance our 'dream' so we may not be a typical smallholding - we're still quite capital rich until we spend the rest on holiday cottage and vineyard and by then we'll poor as church mice for several years.
I also have copies of various books you might want to borrow...
Just PM me if you fancy coming over (would suggest after the school holidays if you want to keep your ear drums in tact).
H
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Meant to say as well that I've not been in contact with the Kent Smallholders but they are active. They meet at the other end of Kent though - Tonbridge area - early evening once a month so impossible for me to get to (up and round the motorways at rush hour makes it a long journey).
H
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Start small and simple and work up. Almost everyone should be able to get hold of an allotment to grow some veg and if you're lucky they'll let you keep chickens too. You can learn so much from just running some pigs or store lambs through the summer and off to slaughter in the autumn - possibly on rented land which will give you a good idea of if you really like the work and commitment whilst still leaving you warm and dry over winter. We got started in a large back garden, then squatted some pigs on an abandoned patch of land for the summer before finally finding our current place at auction for next-to-nothing!
We've also had a chap volunteering for a day once a week over the winter to get some experience before starting his own holding this year - I can't believe anyone would turn down an extra pair of hands for the day!
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Im in kent, and land can be at a bit of a premium because of (dare I say it) pony paddocks. It tends to be not what you know, but who you know, and if you speak to the right people, and don't be afraid to ask, there are usually a few bits of unloved land about to rent, sometimes for free. Don't think that buying livestock is expensive, we got our chickens for free as chicks in a cardboard box from a friend. If you know where to look, pigs and sheep can be bought at bargain prices. Keep pestering and don't give up :thumbsup:
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Hi all,
Thanks for all the replies, wasn't expecting so many! Just a message and run tonight just to let you all know I intend to read and reply when I have more time...super busy tonight.
Georgie
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Hi all,
Bit more time to reply this morning!
JMB - I haven't been in contact with Kent smallholders, I will look into this but as HesterF mentioned that they are in Tonbridge, that could be a bit difficult for me.
Dan and Suziequue - WWOOFing sounds like a great idea, and I have looked into similar ideas about working on a farm with room and food although these are more "holiday" type ventures so I don't think you would get the whole picture. As I work WWOOFing for me would have to be one offs here and there really, but if I can find places that are happy with that, that's a great idea!
Tudful Tamworths- Thank you, that would be great if you could PM me their details or even I'll PM you mine and you can pass them on if you think they would prefer that?
HesterF- Thanks! I will PM you about popping over at some point.
I think starting small is the only way to go for me, so I'm thinking starting with the things I really want as more of a hobby than an income and go from there.
Will keep you all posted, thanks for the advice!
Georgie
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Also look at help x similar to w woof but not solely organic
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i moved to scotland as land was cheaper up here. ::)
have you tried renting some grass and putting alpacas or sheep on it?
i remember that smallholding farming programme last year - cant remember the name - but the presenter told the lady who kept alpacas that there are places who do livery for them. that woyld get you going straight away to see if you really like it.
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Hi all, this is Georgie's boyfriend, I've got some questions on top of what she's already asked.
At my parents' house there's 10 acres of land available for free, two small woodlands about 3 acres in total and two fields about 7 acres.
At the minute we live and work in town about a 50 minute drive from the land, we are desperate to move out of town but where we move to will be determined by how often we need to check on the animals. Can anyone give us an idea of how often animals need to be checked? Neither of us like our jobs so finding new jobs in a more convenient location is on the cards too.
I go to my parents' house 2-3 days a week as I'm learning blacksmithing in a corner of their field, I often uses noisy power tools and am concerned that loud noises could stress out the animals, should this be a concern and could it affect what animals we keep? I've noticed that the horse riders that go down my parents' lane used to lazily walk by, since I've started making a racket they now trot by even though I'm a good 30 metres set back off the road.
My parents live in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, does the AONB affect what animals you can/can't keep? It's an agricutural area with a sheep farm near by, the neighbours on both sides have horses and my mum feeds "Mr Badger" who comes every night. Are there diseases we should be aware of and does the range of surrounding animals affect what animals we could keep? I.e I know badgers and cows don't mix, are horses and alpacas a clash for example?
Lastly, are there grants we should be aware of to take the financal sting out of the setup cost?
Thanks.
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Legal requirement : livestock must be checked daily .
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Personal requirement: you'll find it difficult to tear yourself away from just watching them anyway - especially chickens. :innocent: :excited:
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I'm not sure chickens would last very long with 'Mr Badger' around every night ;)
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Most animals would get used to the noise - ever listened on a farm to the tractors, combines and other equipment being used?
And I second all three of the above! - Daily check for at least three solid reasons - rent a house nearby, move in with your folks maybe - or a caravan in their garden? :excited:
Oh and I am very doubtful that you'll survive financially without at least one income so one of you should get a local job first.
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I'd say if you have an offer of 10 acres free of rent, take it and start up slow - maybe get sheep on from a local farmer rather than fill it with your own stock until you are close enough to take on livestock care, and learn from him in terms of sheep management while you're at it. Or come to an agreement with him to get free grazing for the season for a set number of his sheep in return for caring for a set number of yours for the same period, aiming to get them to market before winter. Similarly the woodland might support a few pigs and you could get care for yours in return for space for theirs and some sharing of experience when you can get there. I'm not a pig or sheep person so can't advise but if you took pigs/sheep on with a view to sale or butchering before winter when the care costs/management input goes up you'd get valuable experience and find out whether they're for you and/or a marketable commodity locally. And have some invaluable local friendly farmers to boot, sources of expertise and also maybe hay in future..
You said veg was a lower priority and at that distance you might think longer term planting initially rather than what needs a lot of input for short term cropping ie plant some fruit bushes, rhubarb etc but nothing that needs a lot of tending yet. Meantime even in town you could try your hand at planting a few seed trays on the windowsill and seeing how you do.
I wouldn't get hens until you're on site or nearby, once a day isn't enough for them let alone days you can't make it. They're more time specific than grazing animals.
Re the blacksmithing noise - livestock quickly get used to their environment, mine live under Leuchars flight path and beside an A road, the neighbours across the road go shooting and there is rarely a spook once they're acclimatised. It is occasional unexpected things that cause the scare, road race cycle packs with whooshing solid back wheels going by cause more upset than the regular HGVs or tractors, the hunt that is in the area 3-4 days a year more upsetting/exciting than the shotguns going off almost every evening for weeks at a time. Your smithing will soon be just normal background noise to stock living there, even if it becomes a longstanding "change upset" noise for horses that were used to being ridden by for years beforehand.
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Cheers folks.
Yep Doganjo, that paper stuff with the Queen's mug on it is a concern.
George is on the waiting list at the library for the Haynes Manual small holding book, are there any other books she should be keeping an eye out for? Books with info on costs would be very useful, I'm thinking along the lines of feed costs, vets bills etc etc etc
Living on my parents land is a possibility. The idea was always to sell the flat in town and buy somewhere in the countryside but maybe renting the flat out and living off the rent should be considered if we can live at very little cost on my parents land. The rent would essentially be our main income.
Thanks for the ideas Ellied, the local farmer did keep sheep on my parents land many moons ago. My parents also have an elderly neighbour who has lots of land and out-buildings, one of which is a piggery. The neighbour doesn't use any of them and has offered the use of them for free. We are resources rich but knowledge poor!
How do small holdings affect planning permission? Do they allow you any wiggle room? Do caravans need permission? I know the council are very savvy about people trying to turn agricultural land into residential land by "change of use". AONBs are notoriously difficult to build in.
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if the land has an agricultural tie then that would reflect what is supposed to be on the land. ie you have to have agricultural animals as opposed to recreational ponies.
if you are considering breeding then i find even a twice daily check is not enough. consider if you were due at work and the animal was having a difficult birth, its life and death.
badgers and tb are reason they are not encouraged near cows. iv heard they can eat/kill a whole litter of newborn piglets.
im sure most animals would get used to noises on their own land.
can you not put a caravan on the land for 6 mths and see how it goes?
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Renting your flat out and moving near your parents sounds promising to me - get on to it!
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Legal requirement : livestock must be checked daily .
Some more guidelines here:
http://adlib.everysite.co.uk/adlib/defra/content.aspx?doc=249953&id=250030 (http://adlib.everysite.co.uk/adlib/defra/content.aspx?doc=249953&id=250030)
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With all you have going for you, what with the land and piggery, etc. what are you waiting for? I'd be down there like a shot. If you could live on the rent from your flat, at least until one of you has a job, you seem to have every opportunity that many would (almost) kill for. Good luck.
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It all sounds perfect to me. To be honest, a 50 minute commute sounds doable too - at least for one of you. My husband commutes over an hour and has done for years (currently up to London from here). And if you could live rent free on the land in a caravan, then you'd be even better off on costs. Like the others have said, just don't take on too much, too soon. The thing I'm finding is that there are a lot of hidden costs. Even with little stuff like chickens, there are so many hidden costs, it's really hard to get them to even pay their way, let alone make money out of them (virtually impossible on egg sales alone, I would say).
Anyhow, hopefully I'll meet you in person next week. BTW, I've got a Haynes Smallholding Manual and a Chicken Manual you can have - got given them for Christmas and already had them. Would love them to go to a good home! We're in the AONB too (guessing the same one) and have just got planning permission for quite a lot of building work although none of it is a separate dwelling so I might be able to help with that too - although I still get a bit confused by some of it (e.g. we have a Nissen hut that will become a growing tunnel/general farm store and that requires no building regulation approval whereas the outbuilding that will become a utility room does?).
H
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A couple of points to consider :
1) adding the piggeries to your plot will complicate your holding number application .
2) agricultural animals must have a companion of the same species.
Visit the DEFRA website for more details
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Looks like you have the 'problem' most small holding dreamers dream off ...... land and buildings!
My OH 'commutes' 160 miles so we can live our dream. (not daily ofcourse)
Start small, dont start with any livestock breeding enterprise just buy some fattening pigs or lambs or poultry so you can 'try it and see' without long term commitment.
Do grow as much veg and feed plants as possible (not the bit I find interesting either but am hoping it will grow on me :innocent: ....
Maybe another smallholding dreamer lives close to the land .... options for sharing?
enjoy the endless opportunities!
:excited: