The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Techniques and skills => Topic started by: Bright Raven on December 24, 2010, 06:21:12 pm
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New Year project, to dig out enough ground for a productive trout a pond. I would like to try using clay as a liner and stocking with either brown or rainbow trout. I am going to start by researching how the monks did it! If anyone has any good links or advice that would be great. Also could i keep a few ducks on the same pond or not?
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we had an empty pond when we moved here, we were told it was clay lined but wasnt sure if it was. we filled it and we had to keep topping it up for 1st year (hence our doubt), then after that it sealed itself. if you keep ducks, would they not eat your fish? and ducks will poo in the water and make it filthy. the old fashioned way to clay a pond, (apparently they rotated pond sites every few years but not sure why, ) was to put the clay in place then herd the cattle into empty pond and theyre feet do all the hard work for you. good luck
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If you were closer i would offer my services (15 ton excavator with power tilt bucket).I done one for myself years ago did not line it. It has attracted herons,ducks and dragon fly's.The normal way to line a pond now is with membrane the same as they use for sealed tips. It really depends on the type of soil or sub soil that you are going to dig into. The best thing to do is to create your pond in a naturally wet area then you don't have to bother with liner either clay or membrane.The other thing i would say if you have small children think again or if you need it for fire fighting purposes.
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dig square hole line bottom second hand slabs then use sleepers mine is the same as the house very good done rite
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How big is your pond going to be? I'd love a pond but with 5 ducks it would be a waste of time. Ducks will eat smaller fish.
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The definitive guide is the BTCV Wetlands and Waterways manual. Good luck with the puddling.
http://shop.btcv.org.uk/shop/level2/59/stock/956
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aw naw not another crap book thats what i should do write books i would make a fortune pigs/ digging holes/archeology/ofroading/tractor ma
intenance/making hay /cattle/life take me out and shoot me crap crap and more crap and this is me in a good mood
forgot the fencing dyking foot paths drainage landscaping treefelling/planting plumbing electical work building people skills or lack of (worked with to many wegies) o and most important comuting on the M8 in rush hour
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Obviously. But you haven't written them, have you?
These guys have been doing this stuff for decades before it got fashionable. The first version I saw was in the seventies. So they actually know what they're doing, they're sharing their knowledge and that's a very good thing for all those people who want to start. Their robustly bound manuals also cover dry stone walling, fencing, footpaths and a pile of other skills that most people don't have from birth.
As the Civil Aviation Authority says "learn from the mistakes of others, you won't live long enough to make all of them for yourself"
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oh well back to the bad baby corner i may not have written books sorry coppied other peoples books but i have DONE IT there is a difference to throwing shillings at some joker that takes you for a mug
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You may need palnning permission to dig a pond. That's what we were told. Might be worth checking...
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katie just do it once it is done if they object just apply for retospective planning thats we we do nothing beats a good splat
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To a degree, that makes sense. We asked and were told we needed planning consent above a certain size, so we didn't go ahead - I wish now that we had dug out the pond first and asked afterwards. However, it should be borne in mind that as far as retrospective planning consent goes it is far easier to have a pond filled in than a house pulled down! ;)
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if the land is agricultural , then you don't need planning to plough it !!! So plough the land and discover that there are loads of stones that need removing = a big hole .....or what a shame you are a terrible ploughman ... you have ended up with a great big hole that has filled with water ... bugger the planners ... with all the cut backs I am sure they will be looking for a pond !!! ::) ::) ::) ::)..
cheers
Russ
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we done this with a a shed 60/40 not planning but council concent did not cost anything retrospectively planning for the advertising cost money but we won it on appeal
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Unfortunately, where we would like a pnd is at the bottom of an orchard so the ploughing idea wouldn't work. We are tempted to just take a mini-digger down and dig it anyway but as the neighbours are so cross with us for winning planning for a mobile home, I bet it would be reported within minutes!
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Its hard to say without more information whether digging a pond counts as "development" and needs planning permission at all. If it's a pond in a garden then it's gardening and there is anyway a presumption in favour of wildlife. But if you affect any watercourses then you will need Environment Agency approval. This is quite a useful link
http://www.basc.org.uk/en/how-to/conservation/dig-this--how-to-create-a-pond.cfm
A pond puddled with the right clay will last for ever while a geotextile liner will always be susceptible to being punctured. However puddling is hard work and the pond has to be designed with the right foundations and correct angles. It may just work or it may leak constantly despite everything you do!. A textile liner is generally going to be cheaper and easier unless you have lots of friends to help with the work. If the finished pond leaks it is a real sod of a job to fix.
I used to work bringing back overgrown ponds into use before membranes appeared on the scene. Pulling out a tree which was choking the pond could have the effect of pulling out the plug! Also not all clay works well for puddling.
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katie every project needs an angle you have an orchard it needs water in a drought does it not ponds are ideal for this
job done account will be in the post
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Phew! so much good advice and experience. I was concerned about my 5 year old falling in but he is taking regular swimming lessons and is quite danger adverse. I will dig it out a bugger the planning. ( I have a growing subversive streak) The area is quite low in the field, it is wet through the year and is near to a brook owned by the adjoining land owner. I will have to pace out the size but I guess it will be in the region of 20 metres square. I am also wondering about oxygenation - I know solar powered pumps are a possibility. Possibly not ducks and trout in the same pond then! I may have to choose between the two. Hummmmmmmmm :P both are delicious.
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You may get wild ducks coming down anyway, you can shoot those for dinner! ;)
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We were thinking about digging out the old pond that used to be in our field, it was filled in around 30 yrs ago but appears on all the old maps. Do you reckon we'd need planning?
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Probably not if you're just restoring a previous pond. Best to check, though.
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Here's a link to the Pond conservation website
http://www.pondconservation.org.uk/advice/makeapond/planningpermission (http://www.pondconservation.org.uk/advice/makeapond/planningpermission)
I think, if you've got to import materials to fill/line it (think hardcore, sand etc)then you will need permission - a quick call to your local council and ask for the duty planning officer (just don't give them your name ;)) should answer it for certain - it seems to (like ALL planning stuff) vary from place to place and person to person ::)
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Dread asking though... 2 yrs of old wounds re permission for stables still not healed!
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don't go there they do not like losing been there
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Don't I know it! Think I may just start digging it out gradually and see how it goes.
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If no-one's likely to see you or complain about it and it used to be a pond I'd probably go ahead without even asking, but that's just the rebel in me ! ::)
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Read all the guidance notes your planning authority publishes but this doesn't sound like either a change of use or a development in any shape or form. Pond restoration is generally smiled-on by government. It is hard to argue that something that is shown on the map shouldn't be there in real life, and removing unknown dumped rubbish is a public service
I wouldn't ask direct because they have a way of sucking you in - we really need more information, can you let us have a map and a list of materials - and before you know where you are your're sponsoring your very own jobsworth interfering g*t planner.
We did it by the book last year for our stable and ended up totally stressed-out by the unhelpful pig-headed uncommunicative complete ****ing **stards. I'm so angry I'm taking them through their own complaints process. The local MP even helped. Our application was within policy, supported by letters from the neighbours and invisible from any road. So they just went slow and silent and procedural.
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Oh my god de ja vu! Only difference for us was a few neighbours weren't happy as I might drive a horse lorry past their house. This is why I try to stay away from them total bloody jobsworths. I've just worked with a very large local authority in my professional capacity one of the septa was planning, let me tell u I now know foe definite they're just lookin for work to justify their salaries.. Serious waste of funds.
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We all hate the planners but they are needed sometimes(and believe me thats a hard thing to say!)
Planning permission is needed here in the parks for any major land movement, like holes or levelling, but this may not be the case outside the parks and its probably different whatever authority you have.
We have major planning obstacles to get round this year too for a number of reasons and I am sure its all going to be another long lengthy stressful year of worrying about it. Infact its so worrying I have decided thats its just a waste of time to worry about it.
We have a pond (or more a biggish hole) in our top field that we have been told is an 'eyesore' - but hey there is no water up in that field as the pressure is too low. We have been asked to fill it in two years ago but we have heard nothing since as they are too busy trying to get us to remove other 'eyesores' and sort planning for various other building works. The biggest thing we are in trouble for is a menage containing a few hundred tons of stones quarried from a big hole in the side of our drive.
We also cleared an old pond out last year but the planners said nothing about it - probably because they didnt notice as all that changed was the depth of the pond.
If it was a small pond I wanted I'd just go ahead and dig it or if it was making one slightly bigger I'd go ahead - but to dig one big enough for keeping trout in - I'd probably apply for permission.
I'd also get advise from a professional about any big pond as if not done properly you could change the course of the water completely
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We only need planners to stop the bloke next door doing something stupid except that the range of stupid things that people can do without permission is vast, almost as vast as the number of interesting things that people should do but the planners won't let them. You still see stone-clad semi-detached houses with the original brick next door.
The land adjacent to us is reputedly owned by a Mr Smith who has I think established a use as a lorry park because no-one has ever enforced against him and he does it at a very low level. His land is green belt and on the edge of town so his game is clearly to get residential planning permission in five, ten or twenty years. He doesn't annoy me and I don't know his address so it's let sleeping dogs lie.
If, however, you ASK for planning permission then they're all over you like a rash. And should permission be granted they invariably impose two conditions (at least). One is they withdraw the General Development Order consent (so you need permission to fart in the garden) and they always keep the right to approve materials. In our case they approved timber built stable with onduline roofing and then took ten weeks to approve the materials, at extra cost naturally. And yes it was wood.
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Lmao seriously you must live in Leicestershire! Now did they also have to approve the colour you painted them and the fencing.. Brown of course but got to be the right shade of brown!!!
They refused me permission to put lights in mine.. I mean seriously how is that impacting anyone but the horses and the ease with which I can see to them in the winter.. Had them fitted in the end and damn the consequences! Any way were hijacking the thread we should start another thread stupidest planning depts and crappy conditions!
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They refused lighting? Don't see working in the dark around horses in anyone's best practice safety manual!
We didn't mention lighting, just put it in, but a month of doing it by head torches was convincing. I can understand high level manege lighting being a prob for the neighbours but stable lighting is such a benefit.
Sorry about the thread...
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Fine by me. The problems I have had trying to get permission for a poly tunnel has made me cross eyed with anger. Local planning, pah, I say job retention and creation for weak chinned bureaucrats with no imagination and a love of stone cladding. Eff em all.
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Couldn't have put it better myself :-) ;D
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Hi there. Don't know how you are getting on with your pond plan.. But I'd be happy to offer any advice should you wish. I live in Scotland and have been in trout farming for close to 15yrs. I mostly grow rainbow trout, around 5million per year, but I have also grown Brown trout, salmon, sea trout, artic Charr and brook trout in the past.
All of our fish leave the farm alive either for trout fisheries or ponds or to other fish farms. So should you need any advice, ask away! :-)
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You need to give this a lot of thought.
Why do you want trout in the pond - you're likely to need a licence to stock them, and they require very good water quality and high oxygen levels - either a flowing input from a clean stream, or a good clean spring supply. They won't survive long in a muddy pond, and especially a lined pond with no inflow.
You'll also need something bigger than a mini-digger to create the pond. To be honest you need a pretty big pond/small lake to keep trout. It would be cheaper to go out and buy the fish from a fishmongers.
However even a small pond, that dries up every now and again can have a high conservation value - but don't put fish in them, and keep the ducks away as they will enrich the pond and it will become a green soup. If you want to create a wildlife pond, the Pond Conservation website is very good. The key points are to make it nice and uneven, large amount of edge, and plenty of shallows, and avoid islands! Leave the pond to colonise naturally - don't be tempted to introduce plants as they may bring nasty invasives in with them.
Planning - this varies from council to council, but for a small pond away from sight - I wouldn't bother ;).
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Yes, I am starting to realise that trout may well be a bit too ambitious for the land we have available, also lack of oxygenation is going to be a problem. The thinking and researching continues ......... Thank you too johnmac for your kind offer of help and Barcud for your practical and sensible advice.
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If you have a burn, stream, brook, river or spring to hand then you can have a pond with trout in it... If you don't have any of the above, no chance I'm afraid!
Coarse fish such as carp, perch, roach, rudd will do well in a still water
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There is a brook on adjacent land, at the corner of the field our ditch turns into this brook owned by the next landowner. I might be able to oxygenate if I can re direct things a bit. I will have to think about it and chat to Mr W (traditional gentleman farmer) and see what he thinks.
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If you have a burn, stream, brook, river or spring to hand then you can have a pond with trout in it... If you don't have any of the above, no chance I'm afraid!
Coarse fish such as carp, perch, roach, rudd will do well in a still water
I just found this post. 100% correct, I'm a trout fisherman and all the fisheries I've visited have a feed/return to a nice clean flowing river. Even if you want to farm Carp they need high quality water if you want them for the table. Start coarse fishing that's the way :D I'm thinking about having a small trout lake if I ever get enough spare money. I'm lucky enough to have a running river flowing through ours. Here in France you can dig a small lake on your own land as long as you don't take water if the same volume is exiting it's okay.
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Which part of France lazybee?
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Which part of France lazybee?
Hi, we're in Poutou Charente. Where are you ?