The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: CarolineJ on July 18, 2016, 10:10:09 am
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Help! Going to my first sale in about 3 weeks' time (ANM at Quoybrae) with the intention of buying 10-15 lambs. What do I need to know? I think everyone taking stock in from my area is going in on one big Cormack's lorry, so I guess I'll need to take my trailer rather than being able to get a lift from someone else coming back empty.
Do I need to register in advance? Take ID? Can I pay by card or will I need cash/chequebook? What else do I need to know?
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Don't forget there's normally commission and VAT added to the hammer price. I think if you're not known to the auctioneers you have to register in advance. Check feet, teeth etc and if not 100% happy don't bid.
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I would take your own trailer and then you are in charge of your purchases.
Contact the auction about registering and ask about payment. They vary a lot. Easier to do in advance rather than on the day.
Go in good time so you can have a careful look through the pens. Take pen and paper to make notes of pen numbers etc.
Set your limit.
Look at the weekly sale reports from the auction so you have an idea of prices.
Don't jump in too soon and watch the auctioneer. Be discreet and try and see who else is in. Sometimes it is only you and the auctioneer. Shouldn't say this but enthusiastic women at auctions are an auctioneers dream.
If you get chance go the week before. Noisy auctions and fast pace bidding can be hard to keep up with so you can get a feel.
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Agree with all the above. A tip here to avoid bidding accidentally, and yes I made an embarrassing purchase once :roflanim: don't look at the auctioneer in the eye and move around or nod whilst doing so, avoid eye contact if you don't want to bid (they have eyes like hawks). Make sure the feet are good and the mouth, look out for undershot or overshot ones. Also try and find the breeders before the sale, make sure to get there early so you can really have a good look around and a good chat to each breeder about their stock, this will also be a very good way of finding out which you want and which you don't want. Maybe the title should be a beginners guide to buying at an auction, not an idiots, don't be harsh on yourself ;) All the best and enjoy yourself :thumbsup: If you're not sure then take a friend who knows whats what with sheep. It is really what is appealing to your eye, what I try and do is envision what they would look like on your holding, try and picture them and see what happens. Very often when I have bought rams and the EBV's are the same or very similar, I look to see if they have clean bellies, another plus especially shearing wise, and picture what they would look like as a flock or in the rams case I picture him within the flock and if i can't see it I don't buy him, sounds weird I know but that's how I chose my ram last time. The EBV's where the same the only thing he had over the other ram was the clean belly and the fact I could picture him in the flock. Sometimes though performance can go over what you see as being in your flock, so for example if his genetics are better than anothers and yet you can't envision him in the flock go for him anyway! it really depends on circumstance ;D Soz for the lecture. Hope you have a nice time and do let us know how you get on :thumbsup:
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Hiya, I asked much the same question a couple of years ago, so have a read of that thread too (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=51667.msg445514) :thumbsup:.
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Thank you very much :thumbsup: I don't think there is a sale there before 9th August, they're not very frequent in Caithness.
Husband says he's not sure he can get the day off, so I think I may have to go and practise my trailer driving, pronto!
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Do you know any local farmers well enough to ask for help? If so, be humble, say you have a lot to learn, and they'll probably take you under their wing (maybe with a bit of ribbing) and steer you through.
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Don't forget there's normally commission and VAT added to the hammer price. I think if you're not known to the auctioneers you have to register in advance. Check feet, teeth etc and if not 100% happy don't bid.
At a livestock auction the commission is taken of the purchase price before the vendor gets it, and VAT is not charged on meat animals. So the price you bid is the price you pay. (Unless they do things differently in Scotland?)
Would certainly agree with getting there early so you can have a good look around and possibly talk to the vendors who often hang about near their pens. You can also hear what other people say about the animals. I always believe that time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted. ;)
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Turns out my farmer friend's husband will be working there that day and has very kindly offered to take their trailer over and bring back anything I buy :thumbsup:
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I don't think it is that easy to buy something by mistake. Get ring side or where they can see you bid.
When we were children my Dad always told us to sit still because otherwise we would buy something by mistake. I think it was a good ploy to get us to sit still and quiet!!
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I don't think it is that easy to buy something by mistake. Get ring side or where they can see you bid.
When we were children my Dad always told us to sit still because otherwise we would buy something by mistake. I think it was a good ploy to get us to sit still and quiet!!
Once the auctioneer knows you, it's way too easy to buy something by mistake!
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Once the auctioneer knows you, it's way too easy to buy something by mistake!
Oh so true and one has even been known to knock something down to me when I was not even near the ringside, it was a run of three lots he had not recieved a bid on and he lumped them all together and sold them to me for £1. He later told me that I could put them back in the next sale free of charge if I did not want them.
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Make sure you can understand the auctioneer - it was like a completely different language at first for me.
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Don't forget there's normally commission and VAT added to the hammer price. I think if you're not known to the auctioneers you have to register in advance. Check feet, teeth etc and if not 100% happy don't bid.
At a livestock auction the commission is taken of the purchase price before the vendor gets it, and VAT is not charged on meat animals. So the price you bid is the price you pay. (Unless they do things differently in Scotland?)
Would certainly agree with getting there early so you can have a good look around and possibly talk to the vendors who often hang about near their pens. You can also hear what other people say about the animals. I always believe that time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted. ;)
When I've bought at poultry sales at market there has always been purchasers commission and VAT added on but may well be wrong in terms of livestock. does VAT on meat animals just mean prime stock? I would read that as stock just going through a fat ring?
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I don't think it is that easy to buy something by mistake. Get ring side or where they can see you bid.
When we were children my Dad always told us to sit still because otherwise we would buy something by mistake. I think it was a good ploy to get us to sit still and quiet!!
Once the auctioneer knows you, it's way too easy to buy something by mistake!
I have never bought anything by mistake and wouldn't be paying for anything I hadn't bid for. You do however need to know what your bid was because I have had arguments about that.
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When I've bought at poultry sales at market there has always been purchasers commission and VAT added on but may well be wrong in terms of livestock. does VAT on meat animals just mean prime stock? I would read that as stock just going through a fat ring?
The animal itself, being considered food, doesn't attract VAT.
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When I've bought at poultry sales at market there has always been purchasers commission and VAT added on but may well be wrong in terms of livestock. does VAT on meat animals just mean prime stock? I would read that as stock just going through a fat ring?
The animal itself, being considered food, doesn't attract VAT.
Exactly!
I have had the discussion with my accountant as to whether VAT should be charged on the sale of donkeys as they are not usually eaten in this country. I pointed out that they have passports with a section about whether they can go for meat or not, and so therefore are meat animals, and not Vatable.
So in fact the same applies to poultry - they are commonly eaten so should not have VAT charged.
Are you sure you are not being charged buyers premium? This is in addition to the commission charged to the vendor, and the premium is Vatable even if the purchase price isn't.
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Get a list of the breeder I use tablet to see haw he has done etc at the sale
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Don't forget there's normally commission and VAT added to the hammer price. I think if you're not known to the auctioneers you have to register in advance. Check feet, teeth etc and if not 100% happy don't bid.
At a livestock auction the commission is taken of the purchase price before the vendor gets it, and VAT is not charged on meat animals. So the price you bid is the price you pay. (Unless they do things differently in Scotland?)
Would certainly agree with getting there early so you can have a good look around and possibly talk to the vendors who often hang about near their pens. You can also hear what other people say about the animals. I always believe that time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted. ;)
When I've bought at poultry sales at market there has always been purchasers commission and VAT added on but may well be wrong in terms of livestock. does VAT on meat animals just mean prime stock? I would read that as stock just going through a fat ring?
As Landroverroy says, livestock is not usually VATted. Poultry sakes are a different matter. Also occasionally some rare breed type sales often attached to poultry sakes but generally sheep and cattle, whether fatstock (prime animals), stores for further fattening or breeding stock, it is only the seller who pays commission and VAT, not the buyer. So the price you bid is the price you pay. The one sort of exception that catches folk out sometimes is at pedigree sales where the animals are still sold in guineas so if you bid 100, that is 100gns so when the cheque book comes out the price is £105, 200gns is £210 etc.
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The VAT is on the commission the vendor pays, as this is a service, rather than the livestock itself. Conditions of sale vary not only from mart to mart but sale to sale, so make sure you understand the conditions for the sale you are going to. It is quite possible that the vendor may be paying commission AND the buyer paying buyer's premium, which really annoys me. One or the other, fair enough.